Plushenko wants to become a legend of figure skating

ciocio · May 23, 2011

Great!!! I've just found out that if I don't live in North America or I don't care about American press means I live under a rock!!!! :laugh:

Press outside Nord America wrote nasty things about Lysacek too, does it mean that being OGM is embarassing too? :think:

seniorita said:
No it was not the whole press in North America, it was specific journalists and commentators, plus trolls on the boards who disappeared after Olys (most of them) so I dont like to generalize a negative feeling for a whole continent.

I bet the same journalists will praise him in Sochi!!! :laugh:

seniorita · May 23, 2011

What does it mean skate the telephone book?

I understand the sentence means to see Michelle skate no matter what, by why the telephone book?Cause it is a big book?

pangtongfan · May 23, 2011

wmsb said:
and hello pangtongfan, please don't neglect me and please take my interview......which one do you think is more legendary? plushy in 2006 or in 2010?

Plushenko in 2006 of course. He went from being remembered as a dominant and unbeatable skater who could only be challenged and beaten by the great Yagudin, and who won the Olympics by nearly 30 points over a group of good but not legendary skaters, to a skater who whilst many forgetting how far past his physical prime he already was (so just imagine by Sochi, lol) was mostly just someone who could land alot of difficult so so quality jumps on his feet and who lost the Olympic Gold to one of the most unremarkable champions amongst this almost same group of good but not legendary skaters he crushed in Turin. And then creating a whole sour grapes campaign and whining bitterly after his defeat.

So which is more legend, Plushenko after 2006 or after 2010, after 2006 easily.

evangeline · May 23, 2011

pangtongfan said:
BTW Lambiels PB scores are much lower than Lysacek achieved in Vancouver (check the ISU bios if you dont believe me, they arent even close), so even Lambiel at his best would not be good enough to beat someone like Evan in Vancouver anyway, but that is a whole other topic.

As if!

Didn't you just say in another thread that we simply can't compare scores from different years due to scoring changes/inflation? I would think that applies here. Lambiel skated like crap in Vancouver but nonetheless came a hair's breadth of winning the bronze with nice fat scores. If Lambiel in his prime (e.g. 2006 Worlds LP) with a healthy groin and relatively intact knees skated at Vancouver I have absolutely no doubt that he would blow the field away, including and especially Lysacek. It's not like Lysacek ever beat Lambiel in his prime at any major events anyways...the only time besides the Olympics Lysacek ever beat Lambiel was at the 2007 Cup of China, the season Lambiel was struggling with groin injuries and eventually retired.

wmsb · May 23, 2011

pangtongfan said:
Plushenko in 2006 of course. He went from being remembered as a dominant and unbeatable skater who could only be challenged and beaten by the great Yagudin, and who won the Olympics by nearly 30 points over a group of good but not legendary skaters, to a skater who whilst many forgetting how far past his physical prime he already was (so just imagine by Sochi, lol) was mostly just someone who could land alot of difficult so so quality jumps on his feet and who lost the Olympic Gold to one of the most unremarkable champions amongst this almost same group of good but not legendary skaters he crushed in Turin. And then creating a whole sour grapes campaign and whining bitterly after his defeat.

So which is more legend, Plushenko after 2006 or after 2010, after 2006 easily.

i see, poor old plushy, struggling for one year only to get a lower position in fs history because silver is minus instead of nothing :laugh:

btw, plushy has been beaten by todd, stojko, weiss, yagudin, brain, sandhu, lysacek.....if including withdraw, he has been beaten by lambiel as well.

pangtongfan · May 23, 2011

evangeline said:
As if!

Didn't you just say in another thread that we simply can't compare scores from different years due to scoring changes/inflation? I would think that applies here. Lambiel skated like crap in Vancouver but nonetheless came a hair's breadth of winning the bronze with nice fat scores. If Lambiel in his prime (e.g. 2006 Worlds LP) with a healthy groin and relatively intact knees skated at Vancouver I have absolutely no doubt that he would blow the field away, including and especially Lysacek. It's not like Lysacek ever beat Lambiel in his prime at any major events anyways...the only time besides the Olympics Lysacek ever beat Lambiel was at the 2007 Cup of China, the season Lambiel was struggling with groin injuries and eventually retired.

Well many of you seem to think Plushenko in 2010 was the same skater as 2006 and isnt past his prime at all and should return for 2014 (LOL). So with that presumption (IMO totally false but anyway) cleared up lets analyze based upon that. Lambiel at his peak skating cleanly with quads and triple axels would have been blown away by Plushenko skating cleanly with quads in 2006. Yet Plushenko (supposably still in his prime) skating cleanly with quads lost to Lysacek skating cleanly without quads in 2006. So by that clean Lysacek quadless >>>>> clean Lambiel with quads. You do the math, and Lambiel in Vancouver wasnt even attempting triple axels or triple toes on the end of quads or any triples anymore, so his difficulty was at most on par with Lysacek unlike the relative cases I pointed out, it would be like both were doing programs with full triples and no quads basically.

What do you mean by Lambiel skated like crap in Vancouver exactly. He stood up most of his jumps with some steps out or stumbles on a few, and some low landings on a few others. Nobody realistic should have expected any better. Do you really believe for a second Lambiel was capable of landing every jump solidly with flow out. Even in his prime he couldnt skate a clean long program if his life depended on it, he was never a stable or particularly strong jumper. In his short program he skated about the best he could have with a landed (albeit shaky quad) and ended up 6 points back of Lysacek.

Lysacek beat Lambiel in the LP in Turin even not being in the final group. And yeah I know Lambiel had a couple mistakes (like always) but Evan was nowhere near the name or skater he was in later years. Of course a prime Evan will always beat Lambiel.

wmsb · May 23, 2011

pangtongfan said:
Well many of you seem to think Plushenko in 2010 was the same skater as 2006 and isnt past his prime at all and should return for 2014 (LOL). So with that presumption (IMO totally false but anyway) cleared up lets analyze based upon that. Lambiel at his peak skating cleanly with quads and triple axels would have been blown away by Plushenko skating cleanly with quads in 2006. Yet Plushenko (supposably still in his prime) skating cleanly with quads lost to Lysacek skating cleanly without quads in 2006. So by that clean Lysacek quadless >>>>> clean Lambiel with quads. You do the math, and Lambiel in Vancouver wasnt even attempting triple axels or triple toes on the end of quads or any triples anymore, so his difficulty was at most on par with Lysacek unlike the relative cases I pointed out, it would be like both were doing programs with full triples and no quads basically..

don't include me by saying this. i think plushenko in 2010 is the shadow of 2006 (and 2006 is shadow of 2004).
but why you use plushy to compare lambiel and lysacek? they are almost the same age and they have competed face to face on world and gpf for several times.

ciocio · May 23, 2011

pangtongfan said:
Well many of you seem to think Plushenko in 2010 was the same skater as 2006 and isnt past his prime at all and should return for 2014 (LOL).

No, that's what you assume that we think.:disapp: Plushenko didn't disappear in 2006 after Olys and appeared again in 2010, he skated in a lot of shows between 2006 and 2010 and it was clear since 2008-2009 that he wasn't the skater he used to be.
:sheesh:

evangeline · May 23, 2011

pangtongfan said:
Well many of you seem to think Plushenko in 2010 was the same skater as 2006 and isnt past his prime at all and should return for 2014 (LOL). So with that presumption (IMO totally false but anyway) cleared up lets analyze based upon that. Lambiel at his peak skating cleanly with quads and triple axels would have been blown away by Plushenko skating cleanly with quads in 2006. Yet Plushenko (supposably still in his prime) skating cleanly with quads lost to Lysacek skating cleanly without quads in 2006. So by that clean Lysacek quadless >>>>> clean Lambiel with quads. You do the math, and Lambiel in Vancouver wasnt even attempting triple axels or triple toes on the end of quads or any triples anymore, so his difficulty was at most on par with Lysacek unlike the relative cases I pointed out, it would be like both were doing programs with full triples and no quads basically.

What do you mean by Lambiel skated like crap in Vancouver exactly. He stood up most of his jumps with some steps out or stumbles on a few, and some low landings on a few others. Nobody realistic should have expected any better. Do you really believe for a second Lambiel was capable of landing every jump solidly with flow out. Even in his prime he couldnt skate a clean long program if his life depended on it, he was never a stable or particularly strong jumper. In his short program he skated about the best he could have with a landed (albeit shaky quad) and ended up 6 points back of Lysacek.

Lysacek beat Lambiel in the LP in Turin even not being in the final group. And yeah I know Lambiel had a couple mistakes (like always) but Evan was nowhere near the name or skater he was in later years. Of course a prime Evan will always beat Lambiel.

Why are you rambling about Plushenko? I didn't even mention him in my post and I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but if you think that Plushenko was ANYWHERE near his prime in Vancouver....well, :disapp:

Anyways, the point of my post was a response to your assertion that "Lambiel at his best would not be good enough to beat someone like Evan in Vancouver anyway, but that is a whole other topic." What I was trying to say was that, no, that's not true, if Lambiel skated like his best (e.g. 2006 Worlds LP with 2 quads with a 4T after the halfway point, a 3A, the only mistake a minor two-foot on his 3Lo and FAR superior artistry) with Vancouver-style scoring, it's pretty obvious he would beat Lysacek in Vancouver like a rug (especially since the judges in Vancouver were scoring Lambiel very generously for what he skated).

And no, to be honest, I didn't expect Lambiel to skate any better with his multiple knee and groin injuries in Vancouver. But I said he skated like crap because it was a pale sad shadow of what Lambiel was actually capable of in his prime, in terms of technical content, choreography and performance-wise. Look, think of it this way: if Lambiel, as you said, with stumbles all over his jumps, no 3As or 3Ts on the end of quads or any triples anymore with a stiff performance and relatively mediocre (for him) choreography came within approximately 10 points of matching Lysacek in Vancouver, don't you think a Lambiel at his best with mostly clean jumps, including 2 quads and 3A, and better choreography and performance would have any trouble making up those 10 points?

Olympia · May 23, 2011

seniorita said:
What does it mean skate the telephone book?
I understand the sentence means to see Michelle skate no matter what, by why the telephone book?Cause it is a big book?

I'm kind of taking liberties with an expression used for very good actors, especially those with great voices. The original idiom might be applied to someone like Richard Burton (whose voice could make you cry just from its beauty alone)--"I'd pay to watch him read the telephone book." Not because the telephone book is big, but because it's very dry facts. So your example of watching Michelle skate no matter what (or Browning, for Tonichelle....) is apt.

seniorita · May 23, 2011

Thanx Oympia, always a new thing to learn here

bestskate8 · May 24, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
2014? Well, truth be told, I almost think it'll be like Stoijko in 2002. Stoijko had a personal goal (it's wierd to think that 2002 represents the first time he landed a quad at the Olympics) and met it, so the results didn't matter as much to him. Canada didn't have two contenders who were stronger (Sandhu did beat him in 2001 Worlds), so it wasn't like he was taking someone else's spot for a legacy pick or anything. But at the same time, it feels very much like a footnote in his career. Plushenko has his own goals. I hope he meets them (provided he doesn't beat my favourite skaters, of course).

If Plushenko meets his goals, he will beat everyone including your favourites of course.

Stoijko can only dream of Plushenkos record, not even close to compare.

But if Plushenko have won gold in 2002 probably your favorites had better medals in 2006 and 2010, but unsatisfied Plushenko will be very hungry again and unstoppable :biggrin:

wmsb · May 24, 2011

he is not unstoppable now. competing with other young talent and his own age&injury, it's a war he will definitely lose completely. the only question is when.

he has written a letter with something like "unlike Coubertin, my principle is not only participate, but also win" -- maybe he is hungry, but i really think he has eaten very much and has a too good stomach

(btw, seems the letter is written publicly as per rsu's request. interesting)

pangtongfan · May 24, 2011

Stojko has the same # of World titles as Plushenko actually. And he competed against 2 Olympic winners and Eldredge. Plushenko had no competition once Yagudin retired. From 2003-2006 he simply had to get through competitions in one piece to win.

I agree Plushenko is probably a better skater than Stojko (although I think both in their primes Stojko would have given him a major challenge) but I doubt he would do any better in Sochi than Stojko did in Salt Lake City all things considered.

And I agree with the person who said his goals will definitely be to win. And that is exactly why he would be crazy to return. Him striving to even challenge someone like Chan at this point is like Fumie Suguri striving for an Olympic medal in Sochi.

bibi24 · May 24, 2011

bestskate8 said:
Stoijko can only dream of Plushenkos record, not even close to compare.

Their records are very close indeed :agree:

Stojko:
- 3-time world champ
- first to land 4/2, 4/3
- 2-time olympic medalist
- 4-time olympian

Plushy:
- 3-time world champ
- first to land 4/3/2, 4/3/3
- 3-time olympic medalist
- 3-time olympian

Plushy invited Stojko to 'Kings on Ice', so he respects Stojko.

pangtongfan · May 24, 2011

Stojko way past his prime also beat Plushenko at the 2000 Worlds arguably already in his prime. Anyway it is all a moot point.

ImaginaryPogue · May 24, 2011

bestskate8 said:
If Plushenko meets his goals, he will beat everyone including your favourites of course.

Stoijko can only dream of Plushenkos record, not even close to compare.

But if Plushenko have won gold in 2002 probably your favorites had better medals in 2006 and 2010, but unsatisfied Plushenko will be very hungry again and unstoppable

shrug. Only time will tell.

wmsb · May 24, 2011

bibi24 said:
They are very close indeed :agree:

Stojko:
- 3-time world champ
- first to land 4/2, 4/3
- 2-time olympic medalist
- 4-time olympian

Plushy:
- 3-time world champ
- first to land 4/3/2, 4/3/3
- 3-time olympic medalist
- 3-time olympian

Plushy invited Stojko to 'Kings on Ice', so he respects Stojko.

I can make them more close or Stojko better than Plushy like this

Stojko:
- 6-time world medalist
- 11-time national medalist
- first to land 4/2, 4/3
- 2-time olympic medalist
- 4-time olympian

Plushy:
- 5-time world medalist
- 9-time national medalist
- first to land 4/3/2, 4/3/3
- 3-time olympic medalist
- 3-time olympian

Hard to say plushy will do better in Sochi than Stojko in SLC. 3 years is very long time, maybe finally he will change mind and quit.

btw, plushy has competed with 2 olympic winner too :biggrin:

blue_idealist · May 24, 2011

IIRC, Stojko finished in 8th place at SLC. I think that Plushenko COULD do better than that in Sochi (although I much prefer Stojko). Plushenko's not a favourite of mine, but I think he is capable of beating all the current men except Chan and maybe Takahashi. I just say maybe for Takahashi, because he did beat Takahashi in 2010, which wasn't that long ago. I know that Takahashi might have been ahead if he hadn't tried the quad flip, but still, maybe not. If Patrick Chan starts to falter (although I don't foresee that as a likely possibility), and nobody else improves by a great degree (although some probably will), Plushenko could get another Olympic gold. Of course, he could end up in 8th or even lower if he doesn't skate well and others do. However, I have a hard time believing that he even will go to Sochi. I think Gachinski might become a medal contender in the next couple of years (heck, he already won a world bronze although I know some questioned the scoring on that), and Plushenko won't be as 'needed' by the Russian federation anymore.

Re: Stojko in his prime beating Plushenko in his prime, I would have to give this one to Plushenko even though as I said, I prefer Stojko by far. Yeah, Stojko did beat Plushenko in 2000, but Plushenko wasn't really in his prime then, IMO. His prime is like 2002-2005, I would say. Plushenko is a bit more artistic than Stojko, even though both are not very artistic really, and Plushenko had harder jumps (although Stojko gets credit for having the hardest jumps of his era; maybe he would have gone for 4-3-2s etc. if he had been in his prime in the 2000s like Plush was).

wmsb · May 24, 2011

don't forget Takahiko Kozuka, whose tes is even higher than chan! and oda, i really like him inspite of his bad bad bad math

a list of people can beat plushy if he stay where he is. and, yeah, probably Gachinski:think:

i wonder how to decide when is the "prime", physically or mentally? if based on achievement, obviously 2001 is (one of) plushy's prime as well (maybe 2004 is not).

artistic is very subjective. just question, if presentation under 6.0 system or pcs give any information about artistic? sometimes they looks more like "execution" instead of "artistic"......then, which element can reflect artistic? or it's just depends on individual's like or dislike?

Plushenko wants to become a legend of figure skating

ciocio

seniorita

pangtongfan

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evangeline

wmsb

pangtongfan

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wmsb

ciocio

evangeline

Olympia

seniorita

bestskate8

wmsb

pangtongfan

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bibi24

pangtongfan

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ImaginaryPogue

wmsb

blue_idealist

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