Plushenko wants to become a legend of figure skating

janetfan · May 11, 2011

seniorita said:
But if PLu says one simple sentence that needs to be debated in 6 pages, maybe he is already a legend. Ok its off season.

:yes:

This definition of legend says it has a GREEK origin.

"Origin of LEGEND
Middle English legende, from Anglo-French & Medieval Latin; Anglo-French legende, from Medieval Latin legenda, from Latin, feminine of legendus, gerundive of legere to gather, select, read; akin to Greek legein to gather, say, logos speech, word, reason'

Who will dare argue with seniorita about the meaning of "legend"

Mathman · May 11, 2011

In sports, I think we use the word "legend" just to mean someone who was really good at what they did. Babe Ruth hit a lot of home runs. Michael Jordan scored a lot of points.

I just Googled "legendary athletes." At the very top of the page was an article about the Norwegian marathon runner Grete Waitz. She ran long distances very fast.

About John Curry, I have to agree with Hernando. Curry's claim to fame was that he could move his body expressively to music. After his career as an athlete was over he used ice as a medium to develop and display his artistic vision. He did not, as far as I know, contribute anything special to the sport side of figure skating.

I suppose that a "legend" ought to have influence on future generations. I want to hit home runs like Babe Ruth, I want to "be like Mike," Look! I'm Tiger Woods. Thousands iof little girls, in the U.S. anyway, are enjoined to "skate like Janet Lynn."

When Michelle Kwan first began skating she wanted to skate like Brian Boitano. Her coach and choreography told her, "No dear, you mean you want to skate like Janet Lynn." Michelle achieve a fusion

janetfan · May 11, 2011

Mathman said:
In sports, I think we use the word "legend" just to mean someone who was really good at what they did. Babe Ruth hit a lot of home runs. Michael Jordan scored a lot of points.

I just Googled "legendary athletes." At the very top of the page was an article about the Norwegian marathon runner Grete Waitz. She ran long distances very fast.

About John Curry, I have to agree with Hernando. Curry's claim to fame was that he could move his body expressively to music. After his career as an athlete was over he used ice as a medium to develop and display his artistic vision. He did not, as far as I know, contribute anything special to the sport side of figure skating.

I suppose that a "legend" ought to have influence on future generations. I want to hit home runs like Babe Ruth, I want to "be like Mike," Look! I'm Tiger Woods. Thousands iof little girls, in the U.S. anyway, are enjoined to "skate like Janet Lynn."

When Michelle Kwan first began skating she wanted to skate like Brian Boitano. Her coach and choreography told her, "No dear, you mean you want to skate like Janet Lynn." Michelle achieve a fusion

John Curry has also said Janet Lynn was a major influence on his skating. He also said he changed his thinking after seeing Toller skate.

I am sure Toller was influenced by Curry as well but Toller's vision seemed more original to me. Curry basically borrowed from ballet. For new tricks on the ice and innovative spins and positions Toller was the major innovator in Men's skating.

Mathman · May 11, 2011

Toller Cranston was ahead of his time. I remember watching maneuvers like his broken-leg sitspin and saying, what the...?! Alas, he was too hip for the room -- he left both audiences and judges scratching their heads.

About John Curry, there is another way to look at "legendary." In sports, every once in a while there is a "legendary performance." Don Larsen's perfect game in the 1955 World Series.

To me, Curry's 1976 Olympic long program stands head and shoulders above any other men's figure sklating performance, before or since.

When Curry was training in England his advisers told him that there were two things he needed to do to win the Olympic gold medal: (a) butch up his act. and (b) enlist the political support of king-maker Carlo Fassi. he did, and the rest is history.

By the way, Curry got first place ordinals from every judge...except, of course, the Russian judge who voted for Vladimir Kovalev and the Canadian judge who voted for Cranston. (Jan Hofman did not receive a first-plasce ordinal. I guess there was no East German judge on the panel. The late 70's and early 80's were the absolute nadir in corrupt figure skating judging. In comparison, the Salt Lake City affair was a harmless prank.)

Torvill and Dean's Bolero was (IMHO) "legendary" in the literal sense. It's reputation grew after the fact by increasingly exaggerated re-tellings. Virtue and Moir 2010 were better.

Bluebonnet · May 11, 2011

seniorita said:
But if PLu says one simple sentence that needs to be debated in 6 pages, maybe he is already a legend. Ok its off season.

I haven't gotten used to "Plushy" (still don't like this way of calling him.

). Now it's "Plu"? :laugh:

With the speed his thread is generating, we'd call him "P" soon enough. :biggrin:

Serious Business · May 11, 2011

Sorry Joesitz, I think you've been soundly outvoted. When even skating fans who outright dislike Plushenko grudgingly admit that he is a legend, among the endless piles of accolades Plushenko has won, he is very much a legend.

And it's not a term that people will bestow lightly, especially people who don't like him. I can't think of many other skaters who competed in the past decade that would get such an unequivocal response. Let me attempt to make a list:

Shen and Zhao
Alexei Yagudin
Michelle Kwan

That's about it. While being universally regarded as a legend isn't, in my opinion, a requirement for legendhood (there are a few other skaters I consider legends from the past decade), when it is there it is a sure and rather incontrovertible sign that someone is a legend.

seniorita · May 11, 2011

Bluebonnet said:
With the speed his thread is generating, we'd call him "P" soon enough.

LOL

Why not, Yuna said a B at her twiter, and all the universe understood! :biggrin:

skfan · May 11, 2011

seniorita said:
LOL
Why not, Yuna said a B at her twiter, and all the universe understood!

but if plushenko claims the P as well as Plush and Plu, then what happens to p-chan for patrick chan? i myself never refer to patrick as p-chan because it makes me conjure up an anime character that i don't think is a fair comparison for patrick, even though i'm not a patrick fan.

janetfan · May 11, 2011

seniorita said:
LOL
Why not, Yuna said a B at her twiter, and all the universe understood!

We could also call Evgeni Viktorovich Plushenko "E".

Naturally we would then refer to Evan Frank Lysacek as "The Big E."

blue dog · May 11, 2011

skfan said:
but if plushenko claims the P as well as Plush and Plu, then what happens to p-chan for patrick chan? i myself never refer to patrick as p-chan because it makes me conjure up an anime character that i don't think is a fair comparison for patrick, even though i'm not a patrick fan.

Patrick Chan is P-Chiddy

Joesitz (RIP) · May 11, 2011

Serious Business said:
Sorry Joesitz, I think you've been soundly outvoted. When even skating fans who outright dislike Plushenko grudgingly admit that he is a legend, among the endless piles of accolades Plushenko has won, he is very much a legend.

That's the story of my life for trying to make Figure Skating a more mature sport, and yes, I failed. As I see it, the topic should have been in The Voting Booth, and I never would have seen it, where everyone can vote their favorite legends without stipulating why they were chosen. Your post considers it a popularity contest. No?

The term, as I said before is bestowed by the Media, and in this case it has to be the international media. Present day gushing fans are not interested in past skaters before Shen and Zhao. I have no problem with the Official Halls of Fame both International and National, and it takes far more time to get into those groupings. I would guess voting for a present day Legend is instant success. (or is it just fun?)

BTW. What do you think of the chances for your listing to make it into the Halls of Fame? (it's not instant, and maybe not decided in our life time. quien sabe?)

Mathman · May 11, 2011

And as for "E-man," that's Sandhu.

blue dog · May 11, 2011

I remember the year Terry Gannon was trying to get people to call Mao the Chairman.

Mathman · May 11, 2011

pangtongfan · May 11, 2011

seniorita said:
^ If Phaneuf had skated like Yuna where would she have placed?

Probably about 4th or 5th. Definitely higher than if she skated like Ando did. A non big name from a neutral country skating like Ando does would get high 5s and low 6s for all PCS and 0s and -1 in GOE on non jump elements.

Mathman · May 11, 2011

^ Nah, Miki rocked it! :rock:

Well skated, well deserved. :yes:

I do think, though, that next year they will give it to Alissa (if she holds up her end of the bargain) or Carolina.

pangtongfan · May 11, 2011

Kostner cant even do a junior level program in difficulty now. She deserved her medal since the event sucked so badly and she skated a beautiful program with what she had. And the judges definitely dont "want to" give Czisny a major title in the future, they didnt even really want to give her a bronze in the farce event we had this year as they easily could have. Keep in mind this year was the worst year for womens skating since 1990, anyone who denies this is either delusional or has only started watching skating yesterday. If the women actually get their acts together next year you wont see skaters like Kostner or Czisny even in the top 5 anymore, or skaters like Ando winning events. Ando and Kostner arent even as good of skaters as they were 4-6 years ago, especialy Kostner, and Czisny is a pleasent journeywomen who the judges will never view as a big name at this point. All the skaters who did well this year benefited from Kim's basically retirement from skating (yet still nearly winning Worlds showing up untrained and making about 5 mistakes and probably still deserved to, LOL), Rochette's retirement, Asada's slump, Lepisto and Nagasu's injuries, and the overall dearth that created the nothing field we had this year. If Ando, Kostner, Czisny did the same performances last year in Vancouver these would have been their placings:

Ando- 5th most likely (same as it actually was in Vancouver)
Kostner- 7th or 8th
Czisny- 9th or 10th

Yu Na Kim's Vancouver performances would have won Worlds by about 42 points over 2nd place. Ando's winning performance might have won the 1983 or 1984 World titles, but none since then.

Mathman · May 11, 2011

I think that all of the skaters you mentioned, Kim, Asada, Ando, Rochette, Lepisto, are pretty much done. I don't think Leonova will be a force, and the younger Russians are too young. I am not sure how much improvement to expect from Murakami and Nagasu.

I might be wrong, but I can see the ISU "wanting" to throw the U.S.A. a bone next year, getting it out of the way in time for the lead-up to Sochi. I can also see them elevating Kostner as a retirement gift for Cinquanta.

Krislite · May 11, 2011

pangtongfan said:
Kostner cant even do a junior level program in difficulty now. She deserved her medal since the event sucked so badly and she skated a beautiful program with what she had. And the judges definitely dont "want to" give Czisny a major title in the future, they didnt even really want to give her a bronze in the farce event we had this year as they easily could have. Keep in mind this year was the worst year for womens skating since 1990, anyone who denies this is either delusional or has only started watching skating yesterday. If the women actually get their acts together next year you wont see skaters like Kostner or Czisny even in the top 5 anymore, or skaters like Ando winning events. Ando and Kostner arent even as good of skaters as they were 4-6 years ago, especialy Kostner, and Czisny is a pleasent journeywomen who the judges will never view as a big name at this point. All the skaters who did well this year benefited from Kim's basically retirement from skating (yet still nearly winning Worlds showing up untrained and making about 5 mistakes and probably still deserved to, LOL), Rochette's retirement, Asada's slump, Lepisto and Nagasu's injuries, and the overall dearth that created the nothing field we had this year.

As lovely as her long program was, her tech content really bothered me. No 3Lutz and just one 3Flip!? She even popped the 3Loop that she was supposed to repeat.

A lot of people are praising her to the sky now that she was relatively clean--but come one, with that kind of content, of course she could skate with ease. I'll not change my appraisal of Kostner until she brings back her 3/3 and 3Lutz without falling all over the place.

It's odd how much lower lady's skating is starting in this new Olympic cycle. Last time, in the 2006-2007 season, things were looking much better with Yuna and Mao joining the senior ranks, Miki still had her 3/3 and the US still had some promising skaters.

But it could be just bad luck/timing. This season we had the break/retirement of many seniors (Kim, Rochette, Lepisto, etc) while the promising juniors won't show up in senior competitions until at least next season.

evangeline · May 11, 2011

Krislite said:
As lovely as her long program was, her tech content really bothered me. No 3Lutz and just one 3Flip!? She even popped the 3Loop that she was supposed to repeat.

A lot of people are praising her to the sky now that she was relatively clean--but come one, with that kind of content, of course she could skate with ease. I'll not change my appraisal of Kostner until she brings back her 3/3 and 3Lutz without falling all over the place.

You're not the only one...it's a bit sad when a world medallist in 2011 is doing tech content that even Jill Trenary could seriously compete against. :disapp:

If Carolina is handed a world title with the tech content she displayed at Moscow, heads will roll! (ok, maybe just my head...from mortification, that is). But I'm sure at least one of Kim or Asada will get their acts together by next season to prevent this.

Plushenko wants to become a legend of figure skating

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