I wouldn't be surprised if it's the music ..but it is darn close to SA to be changing the FD
I wouldn't be surprised if it's the music ..but it is darn close to SA to be changing the FD
Thanks for the news. Did they give a reason for the change? If not, I wonder if this was due to the tighter rules on music choices. Die Fledermaus has a much more definite rhythm than the score from La Strada. I admit I love that score but if it was going to risk a deduction, then it's smart to drop it. Perhaps they will still turn it into an exhibition.
Davis & White just announced in today's teleconference they have changed their FD to Die Fledermaus by Strauss instead of the Nina Rota piece. Their SD music is the same. They will end the SD with JLo's On the Floor which includes the circular steps and the lift.
Hmm:think:
I read here somewhere that Cappellinni / Lanotte will do "La Strada", wasn't it the trigger for D/W to change suddenly their FD?
1. P/B are not as weak technically as you suggest, they are not poorly trained, and have improved on the technical side throughout their career. And they bring things to the ice that Shpilband and Zoueva teams don't, not just from an artistic standpoint. As for that time when they were beaten by C/P - they skated badly at 2008 SC, and I don't recall too many people who thought they wuzrobbed. They got better as that season progressed and their results reflected that.The only reason they were not on the Worlds podium last season was a freak fall; that does not mean they are suddenly inferior to Canton teams in general and the Shibutanis in particular.
2. I like the Shibutanis and find them very talented and likable; I have since first seeing them at 2009 JW. But I do feel they were generously scored at times last year. I'm also not sure the sort of immediate success they enjoyed will be good for them in the long-term.
the .
I assume with D/W this is in reference to POTO vs. their tango FD, although it may be more appropriate to compare their breakthrough 2009 season with the year after. In either case, I don't know that they took as big a risk as did V/M with Umbrellas vs. Pink Floyd.
I admire V/M rather than love them, and have varying degrees of enthusiasm for the others, but I agree with the sentiment. I really don't like how so many elite teams are now concentrated in the two Detroit-area clubs, and I especially don't like the Canton formula that allows teams to take shortcuts to success. This is not to say that we need to go back to the 6.0, wait your turn days; but you can tell when a team has been together for a while, like V/M or P/B, vs. new teams that are kind of going through the COP motions and hitting the technical requirements but don't have the same connection.
I agree with everything you wrote - I touched upon this in my post yesterday, but you've done a much more thorough job of articulating the problems with the system as pertains to ice dance. I particularly agree with the sections I've left quoted (also that the criticism of Tessa's supposed weight gain being absurd). Say what you will for 6.0, it did leave judges room to evaluate range and maturity and other things that don't seem to apply much anymore. The PCS are not an equal measure: they are more detailed, which is good, but also include many technical rather than artistic considerations. This is a problem across all disciplines, IMO, but dance seems to have been particularly affected. I think doing away with CDs is also responsible for some of the issues we're seeing in dance.
Young teams do benefit from the rules and scoring in place today, and ice dance has gotten awfully young these last few years; I suspect it's now a younger discipline on average than pairs and men. The lack of maturity in some of the teams is noticeable, and often once you look past the tech and the skating skills, there's not much there. There are teams that would certainly have benefited from additional time in juniors or a lower-pressure introduction to the senior level. DelSchoes, to use one of your examples, were junior world silver medalists, and it still took them years to break through at the senior level, and they had time to improve their skating and develop their own identity.
If I look at the Olympics, V/M had a very pretty program and skated it very well; D/W had a difficult program and skated it very fast. Both teams did lifts that were there as highlight moves and IMO had nothing to do with the programs (The Goose was more appropriate in the Pink Floyd FD; the Phantom is just unattractive, even if it is difficult). Both teams scored well, as they should have under this judging system. Meanwhile, you had F/S, who had a gorgeous program that flowed, had a concept, and with elements that were really well-incorporated but not at the same wow level. I imagine they were somewhat slower, and they never really had a shot at getting near the podium. Just as the older teams may not be up to doing some of the more difficult elements, a younger team couldn't have skated The Immigrants to the same effect. But the technical aspects of a program are more easily measurable, while other things are not. I don't know how to resolve this.
And the three russian teams will be hungry,B/S to show everyone who is the boss,R/T to show they're not number 3 and I/K to show they're progressing.It's going to be interesting at least.
The question mark for me is Capellini/Lanotte with La Strada.Where are they going to end up at Euros especially.
About V/M's FD..I'm kind of uninterested in it,I admire their skating,but it's as if they are going back instead of forth.I have no doubt that by the end of the season they will be amazing at it,but the FD itself doesn't excite me.Maybe I'm just bored of them catering to their fans taste for cute and romantic,or the fact that I believe that they can challenge themselves much more,but their technical score was almost identical to the Shibs,B/S and W/P from last years worlds and it kind of bugged me...
As for COP allowing young skaters to advance fast, I have a couple of examples/concerns. Last week in the JGP, the Russian team scored 62.86 in the SD. Are they really that close to V/M who scored 68.74 at Finlandia? I don't think they are even in the same ballpark. The Russians are good, but not that good yet. And they soundly beat the Shibs in the SD. Does that mean when this Russian team appears at Senior we should expect to see them in the top 5? I don't think so. 87.12 in the FD basically means they tied or beat the Shibs in the FD as well, since there is an extra element at Senior. Those are pretty high marks. But what the scores don't adequately reflect is the difference in the quality and maturity of the skating. The Russians are not at the level of the Shibs yet. I/K had the same sort of experience, which seems to have given them license to expect they will be the next great thing for Sochi. But suddenly Senior results were a "disappointment". I don't think they were disappointing. I think the expectations were way off.
Another example, some of the really young teams finding fast success. I think Ralph/Hill were casualities of this. They won Novice, then Junior, then ended top 5 at Senior in Canada. But they've been stuck and not improving since, until maybe perhaps this year. (We'll see.) It's hurt them internationally, as well as within Canada. It would have been better for them to have to work more and develop more at Junior before reaching Senior, and then they would fare better in their international assignments at Senior. Kudos to Ralph/Hill for sticking together, but I agree some of the changes this year are a result of the pressure to achieve more than teams should be expected to achieve. This is my fear for our little teams from BC, in addition to them all outgrowing each other and having to start fresh in new partnerships at a level where there are a lot of eyes, attention and judgement. Just witness the feeding frenzy on all the changes this year, and it has to be tough on kids. There are some pretty nasty comments about Chock/Bates on these boards.
How many years were Wing/Lowe at Senior before achieving success? And the same with Dubreil/Lauzon? Bourne/Kraatz? And Delobel/Schoenfelder? And even Weaver/Poje needed to spend some time in the wilderness over the last couple of years. But they returned to worlds and won a top 5 placing, now that they are ready for it. Of course it is unreasonable to demand range and diversity from the young ones with limited repertoire. And I guess that's the point. Some of these young ones are achieving results in line with the very top teams, which would lead one to believe they should have diversity and range, when they obviously don't, and can't be expected to. In my opinion, the marks aren't reflecting this difference.
1. Check out B/K's 2000-2001 FD when they moved to Tarasova. (note TRacy's comment about the mood with which it was skated that season than in this competition.) They tried virtually everything to break through over the course of their career.
2. I understand your concerns about one school being dominant, but in sports it's up the to competitors to find a way to break through. In tennis, Nadal did it with Federer and this year Djokovic did it with both of them after years in the shadows. It can be done, but it should not happen just for the sake of providing balance. It should happen because it's deserved. That's what would be best for the sport.
Regarding this program appearing juvenile to some, perhaps it's because this style of dancing is currently taught in dance classes for younger people. It is very physically demanding on the floor after all. But at it's inception, this was the social dance style of young men and women looking to party in bars and clubs across America and Europe during pretty depressing times (WWII). It was meant to inject fun into life when life seemed pretty darn bleak. That's not juvenile at all in my opinion.
I agree with jcoates on this. I just don't understand why people are so critical of the Shibs and their bronze medal. Everyone admits they're an incredibly talented team, yet at the same time seems to feel they medaled too soon and should have "waited their turn" as teams used to in the old days. Also that they're too young and not developed enough artistically. All I can say is, this is a sport first and foremost; in the COP era, it's finally being scored like one. The Shibutanis are some of the best technical ice dancers in the world. That counts--and SHOULD count--for a lot. In my book, it counts for more than vague (and far from unanimous) opinions about P/B being more "mature" or W/P being more "innovative" or whatever. Maia & Alex skated fantastic last year and absolutely deserved the bronze as far as I'm concerned. I personally found their victory tremendously exciting. Who the heck wants to go back to the old 6.0 days when dance teams seemed to win more on attitude, politics, and theatrics than any actual skill? I agree with jcoates that the 1995-2004 period was sort of the nadir of ice dance--when I think of the overwrought, often technically empty programs of that period, from so many teams that were really never better than mediocre yet somehow rose to the top of the heap (Fusar-Poli/Margaglio, Lobacheva/Averbukh, Chait/Sakhnovsky, Grushina/Goncharov), I just shake my head. Whatever its faults, COP is a far better system and, if it encourages and rewards teams like the Shibutanis, I'm all for it.
a) I prefer Nadal and Djokovic to Federer, so at least I’m consistent (that, and I find Federer largely without class, but that’s another discussion).
b) Providing balance? No. Recognizing that there should in fact be more than one way to excel and providing mechanisms to respect that? I think so. I actually think those mechanisms are largely in place, right now, though.
c) But more than that, when one school is so dominant, you get people doing what you don’t want – following lock-step behind them and doing the exact same thing. Going off the beaten track becomes less worthwhile, and everything stays the same. Again, Bourne/Kraatz, Belbin/Agosto are two examples of teams that fell into line
No, that fact is not juvenile.
last but not least, eyria
Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Anissina/Piezarat, Krylova/Ovsiannikov, Grishuk/Platov, Drobiazko/Vanagas alone make that period worthwhile.
Grushina/Goncharov won their medals during COP. As did Khoklova/Novitski and Domina/Shabalin (latter days). So it’s not as if attitude/politics/theatrics has disappeared.
Why am I complaining when I have repeatedly stated I like the Shibs (despite my disappointment here), dislike Pechalat/Bourzat’s dances quite intensely, was largely underwhelmed by Weaver/Poje’s FD last season, love COP like it’s my own mother (not quite), and doing my own scoring coming up with the exact same top five as the judges did at last season’s worlds?
Good question.
I have a lot of issues with D/W's success, but that's the current system, not shortcutting. Maybe I should have referred more to the use of a formula that emphasizes very specific things, making ice dance very technical and, I'd argue, not very attractive in some cases. The Canton school emphasizes speed, and their teams are very fast indeed, but I feel it comes at the expense of other things, such as lines, extension, posture, elegance, etc etc. I remember when S/B moved there, people were wondering if Emily would be able to retain her fabulous lines and toe point, and there was talk that they were being pushed to skate faster. Now S/B are no more, and C/B are getting pretty good scores for a newbie team, and yes, they were already accomplished ice dancers, but still.Which Canton teams do you feel shortcut their way to success? The Shibutanis have been together longer than some OGMs (G/P, for example). Unless you’re referring to the junior circuit teams (Chock/Zuerlein were together very briefly before winning WJs), but I’m not sure that’s a fair assessment.
This is probably true. I think the pressure on them to succeed quickly must have been nuts, and was exacerbated by the retirement/split of the top two Russian team right before they made the move to senior.I think the team that tried to shortcut their way to success was, interestingly enough, Ilynikh/Katsalpov. Instant junior success set tongues wagging, and they were supposed to shoot up the rankings this year. It didn’t really happen, and it didn’t happen because shortcutting isn’t as easy at is seems imo – those high risk elements aren’t easy to slap together (that swan dive lift looked scary dangerous). Indeed, hitting the technical requirements often needs more time together than in pre-COP days, where time was spent getting to know the other, etc. And that’s something that bugs me as well – the assumption that ticking the technical boxes is somehow easy. It’s not.
I don't think older teams should have been held up in the CD, but learning CDs is not easy, and it is one area in which more mature teams could shine. You can't put a highlight lift in the CD and call it a day... it's much more classic ice dance, and some of the things that were needed for teams to be good at CDs are being lost in today's element-focused ice dance; I'd love to see CDs reinstated at least at the junior level. As it is, I often feel like I'm watching pairs programs only with twizzles and different types of lifts. Savchenko and Szolkowy's LP may prove to be more dancey than most of the dance programs.Hmmm... The CD’s were largely technical exercises, weren’t they? And it’s only been a year, has it really been enough time to see the effect on the next generation teams? Unless you’re arguing that older/more mature skaters would’ve been held up via the CDs and that itself isn’t a bad thing. I’m not quite sure I agree. I agree that PCS aren’t an equal measure to artistic considerations (right now, I’d say that Total Scores are about 70% technical, 30% artistic) and I’m fine with that. What you get when you deal with predominantly artistic considerations isn’t what dance should be either.
Exactly. And saying this does not make one a hater. If I didn't see potential in them, I wouldn't really care what they were doing.The identity thing is key, though. If the Shibutanis never travelled beyond what they do now (and I don’t share jcoates confidence that they will), I would be very disappointed. Because who they are now, while undeniably watchable (except for gmyers), doesn’t get me the way I’d like them to.
I guess it was a highlight move, but I don't think it stuck out so badly as the Goose and the Phantom (and never mind how I feel about naming lifts, even as a joke ). DomShabs were hilariously overscored in the OD, though I feel they should have come out of the CD with a bigger margin, so some of it (certainly not all of it) evens out. But agreed about F/S deserving the bronze.Well, if we’re going to be fair, I’d point out that F/S had a highlight move that didn’t have anything to do with the program (the curve lift), but even with their mistake (twizzle error), I think they should’ve been third. Their performance, choreography and interpretation were leagues ahead of Belbin/Agosto and Domnina/Shabalin. I don’t think that’s a COP problem as much as a Linichuk problem (F/S were with Linichuk and likely third in that group). They weren’t that much slower than DomShabs, at any rate. But more than that, we saw the PCS can still be misapplied. Recall, for example, DomShabs receiving 8.8 for interpretation in their OD, which was clearly ridiculous. And my V/M fandom might be peaking through here, but I’d argue that “young people in love” is a concept. Maybe an easy one, compared to the immigrant drama (which, of course, I adored), but it still requires an ability to sell theme, mood and nuance, something they did phenomenally.
DelSchoes... that was a twenty year partnership, something I'm not sure we'll ever see again, even for teams that were paired as young as D/W and V/M (no way will they continue past Sochi). But in the past, even if people didn't team up at a young age, they often skated together until an older age - something that's not really the case today. In pairs, if that counts, the Chinese pairs are always together forever, and of course G/G were very young when they were partnered.I have to admit I don’t really agree. The biggest/most shocking split was over in pairs (Yankowskas/Coughlin, not Dube/Davison) and the big teams that split apart – Crone/Poirier, Samuelson/Bates, had split apart after ten years. I think it’s worth mentioning that the splits we’re seeing here were FAR more common in the 6.0 heyday. Tatiana Navka was teamed with Platov for a while, before he shuttled off back to Grishuk. Then she competed with Gezalian. Then Morosov. Then Kostamorov. How many world champion holders can make the claim to have skated with the same partner since juniors and before?
I'm going to have to politely ask for more paragraph breaks in your posts, jcoates; those blocks of text are a bit intimidating...Regarding the point on skating schools, I agree that far too many athletes in many sports choose to take the easy route and opt to imitate rather than innovate. I'm sure that's where many fans' criticisms originate: the fear that COP or one dominant school will force homogeneity. Still the very best competitors will choose to break new ground (either technical (G/P) or stylistic (T/D)), either because they are challenged to do so, or because they happened to be a breed apart to begin with...
I think most skaters in all disciplines tend to follow whatever trends exist, but often tend to only really succeed on a superficial level and finish in the middle of the pack. I think that's a matter of poor decision making by both the skater and their coach rather than an indictment of any one school of skating. What should be done instead is to train to enhance a skater or any other athlete's natural strengths and shore up their weaknesses rather than attempting to copy one default style. In that regard, the Shibs are actually setting their own direction by focusing so much at the beginning on technique and dance quality instead of emoting because that's where their current strengths direct them. Another example is the North American approach to pairs. I mentioned in the greatest pairs thread that I feel it's becoming too homogenized. But in the 70's, 80s and early 90s North American and West German pairs medaled quite frequently at Worlds and Olympics (sometimes even breaking through to win Worlds) not because they copied the Soviets/Russians, but because they chose to take an alternate approach to highlight their skills. Since the mid 90s that approach has changed and now very few North American teams break through and stay there. My point is, it's a choice and until the teams who compete against Canton find a way to make their alternate choices work effectively to defeat them, this complaint about a monopoly will still be an issue.
I've read some posters suggest that criticism of Shpilband and Zoueva teams is due to European fans being unhappy about the balance of power shifting in ice dance. Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I honestly don't care what skaters' nationalities are; either the skating works for me, or it doesn't. Conversely, one could suggest that NA fans are so happy to see their teams succeed that they disregard said teams' weaknesses and can't accept criticism of the S & Z approach . Canton's a good technical school (well, at least for some things) but there's not much creativity in the programs, and again, not everyone is v/M, who are good enough to transcend that and make concepts we've seen before seem fresh. I would love to see some of those teams work with outside choreographers.
Oh, absolutely, to all points above.
RE; F/S
I don't know, doris. If we're talking metaphors, the opening and closing (non-scoring) lift work in talking about how the partners rely on each other to make a difficult journey. Massimo's expression in the first one is a plea to God for the whole thing to succeed, whereas the mirroring with the second one can be read as a the faith required. The spin, with it's midpoint separation, speaks to both the individual and paired journeys the two take and how they might not always be the same (emotionally). This program really hit me when I saw it at CoC, though, and was disappointed they struggled with injury (wding from SC) and their loss at Euros (thanks to DomShabs)
1. P/B are not as weak technically as you suggest, they are not poorly trained, and have improved on the technical side throughout their career. And they bring things to the ice that Shpilband and Zoueva teams don't, not just from an artistic standpoint. As for that time when they were beaten by C/P - they skated badly at 2008 SC, and I don't recall too many people who thought they wuzrobbed. They got better as that season progressed and their results reflected that.The only reason they were not on the Worlds podium last season was a freak fall; that does not mean they are suddenly inferior to Canton teams in general and the Shibutanis in particular.