Andrei Rogozine

I think it's odd that Reynolds seems to have the ability to do a bunch of quads but when you actually look at it he doesn't have that much height on his jumps (like that weird 3Lz in his SP, he stuck his leg out to the side and had that double pump thing like Caroline Zhang used to have yet still didn't get that much height)

Kevin has terrible technique on all his jumps , especially the axel. He generally spins his jumps rather than jump the jumps hence the lack of height. He could get away with this when he was smaller and younger. Now that he is older and bigger, his technique predictably will result in a lot of UR calls.

Kevin is not going to fix those problems unless he gets rid of Joanne Mcleod as coach. She has delusional views about her skaters' abilities ( often whines about marks with her skaters ). When she dropped Mira Leung for the last time, she proudly talked about her plans to make Mira do triple-triple combinations in the programs when she had problems fully rotating solo triple jumps and the double axel as well.

BTW , I am worried about Nyugen Nam's development because he is with Joanne Mcleod. He is a great talent but I am afraid he will stagnate with her as a coach.

Kevin has a build that is great for jumps but unfortunately also makes him look "like a boy among Men" in Browning's words refering to his skating. His hair style doesn't help me look mature either. In Asia they find him very cute, like a little boy in a Norman Rockwell painting I guess. Time to change his image.

SkateFiguring said:

In Asia they find him very cute, like a little boy in a Norman Rockwell painting I guess. Time to change his image.

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It's really something I find it hard to understand.

This thread should be renamed Canadian Men. I don't get Kevin's hair either but hey, if they like it in Asia, great. I hope he makes hay there while the sun shines.

SkateFiguring said:

Kevin has a build that is great for jumps but unfortunately also makes him look "like a boy among Men" in Browning's words refering to his skating. His hair style doesn't help me look mature either. In Asia they find him very cute, like a little boy in a Norman Rockwell painting I guess. Time to change his image.

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It's not just his build or looks. His movements are sloppy and unpolished, which make him look like a junior level competitor.

Kevin is 21---and 5 months older than Chan. He needs to drop the little boy haircut ASAP. It just makes him look unkempt.

Asian men can easily have Reynolds' hairstyle because they have straight hair. Jeremy Ten has had a similar hairstyle, but he has straight hair and it stands straight up and looks neat. Reynolds has curly hair which he straightens; that damages the hair so it has no body and flops over into his face.

Kevin has different style and strength. Why would we insist on every skater conforming to the same set of 'standard'? It's boring.

It's a sport, for crying out loud. There's a lot things to criticize in Kevin Reynold's skating, but his hair isn't one of them. If he's happy, he should get to rock out with his bad Young Einstein-lookin' self, and the judges shouldn't be paying attention to those kind of externalities anyway. They probably always will, but this is as dumb as when the USFSA told Rachael Flatt to get a haircut. Actually, I bet a Young Einstein program would be awesome. Kevin Reynolds should do that next season.

doubleflutz said:

It's a sport, for crying out loud. There's a lot things to criticize in Kevin Reynold's skating, but his hair isn't one of them. If he's happy, he should get to rock out with his bad Young Einstein-lookin' self, and the judges shouldn't be paying attention to those kind of externalities anyway. They probably always will, but this is as dumb as when the USFSA told Rachael Flatt to get a haircut. Actually, I bet a Young Einstein program would be awesome. Kevin Reynolds should do that next season.

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I agree. If so-called fans/judges are obsessed with skaters' haircuts/costumes, FS will always be considered a fringe sport.

Unlike many, I thought Kevin's hair was cool, or at least not something negative to criticize about though I admit the recent SC hair looked bad even to me. But I've read so many comments on his "bad hair" such that it is obviously something that gets people's attention in a very negative way. Skating is a sport and it's his skating/jumping that should be focused on, but in an esthetic sport, or any endeavor in life, a favorable or enhancing impression is important. He should at least present a look that is not distracting from his performances. I remember Michelle Kwan's big makeover to switch to a grown up image and it worked.

But if Kevin would skate to a program that actually goes just right with his favorite 'do, more power to him.

wallylutz said:

Blades of Passion said:

Patrick skated well enough to deserve the highest PCS of the SP at 2009 Worlds. The judges instead went for Joubert (who didn't have a clean performance) and Lysacek because they had more clout. Patrick was considered "not ready" at the time to be World Champion. Notice how 1 year later, after a series of disappointments including bombing at the Olympics, Joubert gives his best SP performance ever at a World-level competition and is the only guy who pulls off the Quad-Triple combination + Triple Axel in the SP at that competition and finds himself behind Patrick Chan...the kicker being that he and Chan both had the same programs as the previous year. Politics are constantly involved in judging and to deny it is ignorant. The performance does matter but it is never the only thing taken into consideration by most judges.

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In other words, how a program was actually skated didn't matter. Because Chan and Joubert used their 2009 SP at the 2010 Worlds means that necessarily, its PCS should be more or less the same as the year before, hence any deviation is a proof of "political involvement"? Wow, I didn't realize Skate Canada has such clout considering there was not even a Canadian judge on that panel.

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Politics does not just mean nationalism and lobbying, but also skaters being scored on reputation/momentum. Do you honestly believe Joubert would have been 3rd in the SP at 2010 Worlds with that performance if he had instead gone into the competition as Olympic Champion? No, of course he wouldn't have been. He would have been 1st. Skaters will almost always be scored higher/lower based upon factors outside of the performance and the GOE and PCS scores can fluctuate significantly in this manner.

If you want to provide a valid argument against what I am saying, then breakdown the 4 performances I talked about and give your analysis of how Joubert's 2009 SP performance deserved higher PCS than Chan's 2009 performance and how one year later their performances of the same programs had altered such that the reverse was correct. Meanwhile, I'll be sure not to hold my breath.

Blades of Passion said:

Politics does not just mean nationalism and lobbying, but also skaters being scored on reputation/momentum. Do you honestly believe Joubert would have been 3rd in the SP at 2010 Worlds with that performance if he had instead gone into the competition as Olympic Champion? No, of course he wouldn't have been. He would have been 1st. Skaters will almost always be scored higher/lower based upon factors outside of the performance and the GOE and PCS scores can fluctuate significantly in this manner.

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I think you are mixing up concepts. In sports where judging is involved, reputation/momentum is a factor but it almost always is a subconscious reaction on the part of the person judging, whereas political influence is a deliberate and conscious decision. Forget about Figure Skating for a second, let's use baseball as an example. X Home Umpire has a certain strike zone. But when a rookie shows up, he seems to call strikes more often than when Derek Jeter shows up, for pitches that are more or less at the same spot. Skating is in a way similar to strike zone, it is quite possible that judges will be more lenient on GOE and PCS when famous skaters show up or make mistakes. There is nothing we can do about this, judges are human and as humans, we can be influenced by emotions and preconceptions. But that's not politics. Politics would involve quid pro quo or undue pressure, as it did at the SLC 2002 Olympic Games.

Regarding Joubert finishing 3rd in the SP at the 2010 Worlds, I think that title is a little bit of red herring. He technically finished 3rd, yes, but the difference was merely 0.10 separating him and Chan. 2010 Worlds Men SP Results How do you construe such difference as the result of deliberate political manipulation is beyond me. You have to understand that since the adoption of IJS, individual judges have lost the ability to directly rank skaters and in the competition itself, vast majority of them don't know how their scoring will contribute or affect the outcome especially when a competition is very tight as it was there. Considering there was no Canadian judge on the panel, we really have to stretch your conspiracy theory with a lot of IF, even then it's a big stretch. No reasonable person would have bought those arguments because they are akin to witch hunts.

If you want to provide a valid argument against what I am saying, then breakdown the 4 performances I talked about and give your analysis of how Joubert's 2009 SP performance deserved higher PCS than Chan's 2009 performance and how one year later their performances of the same programs had altered such that the reverse was correct. Meanwhile, I'll be sure not to hold my breath.

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First of all, I disagreed with the Men SP results at the 2009 Worlds. Secondly, I was there too. But I will address your point regarding differing results between the two years. At the LA Worlds, post-event, there were some concerns about the level of exposure (experience) that some of the judges on the Men's event had. Many of them happened to come from small member federations (due to the random draw process) where their judges had considerably less experience than say a Canadian, French, Russian or Japanese judge. The ISU actually made a point of better train certain aspects regarding PCS such as transitions after that event. If you dig up some of the older ISU communications from that time, you'll recall the Technical Committee for Singles & Pairs continued to express concerns about the way some judges marked transitions, among other aspects of PCS. Then of course, there was the 2010 debacle after what Plushenko said.

Chan at 2009 Worlds, was a relatively unknown to a lot of the lesser experienced judges. Some of the judges have never seen him before - yes they know he just won 4CC but it was vague and abstract to them. On the other hand, Joubert and Lysacek were veterans, both won medals at World before and were at the previous Olympics. You could also ask how come Chan beat Lysacek comfortably at the 4CC SP but a month later, lose to him? Is that proof too of political influence on the part of USFS? No, absolutely not. You'd want to think all the rankings can be fixed with certainty but the reality is there are always unpredictable factors and things you can't control. The point difference between the two were so small that Lysacek could have easily lose it in the FS. Trying to fix the Men's result is about as futile as trying to grow tomatoes in the snow because Men's skating is just too unpredictable, more than any of the other 3 disciplines.

By 2010 Worlds, like it or not, judges were a little more sensitive regarding how to reward Transitions, thanks the events that happened after the 2009 Worlds and before the 2010 Olympics. Remember, Joubert was one of those dragged into the TR debate thanks to Plushenko. Not to mention, the panel was handled by different judges from the 2009 Worlds, so they all have their own "strike zone", preferences and being different persons, they will likely a different verdict as well. Although Chan didn't skate well at the 2010 Olympics, he was no longer an unknown and that means he was no longer a rookie but a vice-World Champion. He may not yet be a Derek Jeter but he was considered like a Robinson Cano, certainly not someone from the farm anymore. Your attempt to compare marks from two different panels across a year, after so much has happened is not a wise decision. I think you really pick the wrong discipline to attempt your conspiracy theory. Better luck next time though.

I love how figure skating conspiracists, i.e. those constantly claiming that politics and judges' corruptions determine competition results, especially those they don't like, can never prove their allegations but are always challenging others to disprove their theories. I am just happy our justice system, with the exception of Income Tax issues, does not work this way, requiring proof of innocence from the accused rather than proof of guilt by the prosecuters. God help you if you were ever accused of a crime.

SkateFiguring said:

I love how figure skating conspiracists, i.e. those constantly claiming that politics and judges' corruptions determine competition results, especially those they don't like, can never prove their allegations but are always challenging others to disprove their theories. I am just happy our justice system, with the exception of Income Tax issues, does not work this way, requiring proof of innocence from the accused rather than proof of guilt by the prosecuters. God help you if you were ever accused of a crime.

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One thing I forgot to add re: 2009 World Men's SP is that Chan did come across as a little cautious in his performance, similar to how Michelle Kwan skated at the 1998 Olympics vs. her performance at the 1998 U.S. Nationals. Chan also won the SP at the 2009 4CC with a 88+ score, so some people could be mentally anchoring his score there, hence anything below that at the 2009 Worlds could be seen as a disappointment or fishy, therefore, unexplainable. When you think about it, the first human beings almost always start to defer to the supernaturals when seeing something they can't explain. Humans used to view volcanic explosion as a sign that their gods are angry. And don't try to tell them any otherwise. The reality though volcanic explosion is nothing but movement of the Earth's crust so I think the poster who is convinced he caught a moment of "political collusion" in Men's skating is just demonstrating how little he actually knows about figure skating. After all, when there is something you can't explaine or don't understand, you are more likely to jump to conclusions of supernaturals or conspiracy, as is the case here.

wallylutz said:

One thing I forgot to add re: 2009 World Men's SP is that Chan did come across as a little cautious in his performance, similar to how Michelle Kwan skated at the 1998 Olympics vs. her performance at the 1998 U.S. Nationals. Chan also won the SP at the 2009 4CC with a 88+ score, so some people could be mentally anchoring his score there, hence anything below that at the 2009 Worlds could be seen as a disappointment or fishy, therefore, unexplainable.

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I wasn't at 2009 Worlds but I was at 4CC and I remember watching Worlds that year and thinking that Patrick wasn't skating with anywhere near the attack and confidence that he had at 4CC. He looked to be "playing it safe" so I can well understand that he wouldn't get the same kind of marks he got at 4CC where he was flying around the ice.

I want to say it again, every time someone claims that a skater won/lost on the basis of reputation, I can find good and valid technical reasons why their marks were or were not what others thought they should be, and all too often, it's stuff that doesn't show up well on TV, like speed, flow and command. IMO, reputation should only be considered when all other factors have been dismissed.

It's was not just TR mark. Patrick's SS mark was lower than Joubert's in 2009 worlds, which was rediculous. His PE mark was also lower, even though his performance was near perfection while Joubert fell.

check this.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2009/wc09_Men_SP_Scores.pdf

Patrick's performance at 2009 4 CC was great, but he was so high that he was a bit out of control. So as a whole his performance was no better than what he did in the worlds. Also, his performance at the 2010 worlds was not as crazy as in the 4 CC either, how came he got higher PCS?

what wallylutz said only proves that reputation is a factor in PCS. Judges are not machines, they cannot be 100% objective.

Boeing787 said:

Judges are not machines, they cannot be 100% objective.

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Who can be 100% objective? "ME, ME, ME!" cries 7 billion voices.

What is the standard of 100% objectivity? "My opinion, of course!" from the same 7 billion voices.

Reality: ISU organizes and governs major and well recognized figure skating compaticions. They set the rules and standard, with trained and sanctioned judges to decide on the relative merits of performances. Verdicts from seven of nine randomly drawn judges from different nations trumps opinions of random strangers. They don't have to be objective but try to be with rules and guidelines issued by the governing body. Fans have no say but can vote with their wallets. Or stage their own competitions.

Geez, this is a wrong thread for this post. I should be brave to post this in the relevent thread where heated arguments go on re judging and politics, except I'm not qualified to wade in the Dance debates.

Boeing787 said:

It's was not just TR mark. Patrick's SS mark was lower than Joubert's in 2009 worlds, which was rediculous. His PE mark was also lower, even though his performance was near perfection while Joubert fell.

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Joubert can skate with a lot of attack, speed and power, which Patrick did not do at 2009 Worlds, and Brian is capable of really selling his programs. A friend of mine who was in Sweden when Jeff Buttle won Worlds and Brian Joubert outscored Jeff in PCS (ridiculous to contemplate, I know), said that he thought Brian won the LP because Joubert's was THE performance of the night. You cannot discount the effect of speed, power and command of the ice on the skater's performance and the marks given for such performances. Skating faster makes everything harder to execute. That's why skaters who fly (Joubert, Kostner, Chan, Takahashi) around the ice get big PCS.

But even the speedmeisters can have an off day. Seeing Irina power around the ice made me wonder how she ever managed to lose a competition. Seeing Irina skate slowly and tenatively the next day showed me exactly how she managed to lose.

wallylutz said:

I think you are mixing up concepts. In sports where judging is involved, reputation/momentum is a factor but it almost always is a subconscious reaction on the part of the person judging, whereas political influence is a deliberate and conscious decision. Forget about Figure Skating for a second, let's use baseball as an example. X Home Umpire has a certain strike zone. But when a rookie shows up, he seems to call strikes more often than when Derek Jeter shows up, for pitches that are more or less at the same spot. Skating is in a way similar to strike zone, it is quite possible that judges will be more lenient on GOE and PCS when famous skaters show up or make mistakes. There is nothing we can do about this, judges are human and as humans, we can be influenced by emotions and preconceptions. But that's not politics. Politics would involve quid pro quo or undue pressure, as it did at the SLC 2002 Olympic Games.

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No, that IS politics as well. Emotions and preconceptions being influenced in this regard are because of the feeling of needing to conform to a status quo and a judge not wanting to embarrass themselves by marking a skater too much differently than the norm (or, in the baseball example, calling a star player out). It is most definitely a conscious decision, borne out of a non-objective frame of mind.

wallylutz said:

Regarding Joubert finishing 3rd in the SP at the 2010 Worlds, I think that title is a little bit of red herring. He technically finished 3rd, yes, but the difference was merely 0.10 separating him and Chan.

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If you payed attention to what was being talked about, the difference in PCS was greater than 0.10 between him and Chan, and the difference between him and Takahashi was an even greater. Again, if Joubert had gone into 2010 Worlds as the Olympic Champion and Takashashi and Chan had finished below 10th place at the Olympics, how do you think the PCS would have been scored? I promise you they would have been much different.

wallylutz said:

Chan at 2009 Worlds, was a relatively unknown to a lot of the lesser experienced judges. Some of the judges have never seen him before - yes they know he just won 4CC but it was vague and abstract to them. On the other hand, Joubert and Lysacek were veterans, both won medals at World before and were at the previous Olympics. You could also ask how come Chan beat Lysacek comfortably at the 4CC SP but a month later, lose to him? Is that proof too of political influence on the part of USFS? No, absolutely not.

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Of course it's not absolute proof, stop being so daft. There is never "absolute proof" unless a judge admits it (which, you know, former judges have) but everyone in the business knows how it works. Worlds being in Los Angeles most certainly did play a part in the scores Lysacek received, even aside from the audience standing ovations, as did Frank Carroll's campaigning. Some of those influences may be minute but they are there regardless and often times minute differences are what decides the Gold medal.

wallylutz said:

Although Chan didn't skate well at the 2010 Olympics, he was no longer an unknown and that means he was no longer a rookie but a vice-World Champion.

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Yes, exactly, wallylutz. Do you even understand the words coming out of your mouth? His REPUTATION was higher and thus his scores were higher.

Dragonlady said:

I wasn't at 2009 Worlds but I was at 4CC and I remember watching Worlds that year and thinking that Patrick wasn't skating with anywhere near the attack and confidence that he had at 4CC.

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A rather large overstatement, I think. In my evaluation, comparing the SP's, he attacked the footwork more at 4CC but it wasn't a huge difference. He did leave out one small bit of choreography at Worlds, and those details are very important to me, but on the other hand his first two jumping passes at Worlds were more clean, as was the ending position of the program. The main difference between the performances (if it can be considered as such) was in how much more favorable of a reaction the audience had at 4CC vs. the audience at Worlds.

Of course, what's really relevant is how he performed at Worlds in comparison to Joubert and Lysacek. I felt he was the best and if you listen to the commentators, they describe him as "supremely confident" and "magical". Patrick scored much higher than Lysacek in PCS at 4CC and he deserved higher PCS at Worlds as well. Yet, he ended up scoring lower. If we use logical thinking and understand what happens behind the scenes in the skating universe and understand how judges have always been influenced, it's rather obvious why the result ended up as it was.