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Seems like typical sour grapes from Carroll. Didn't he work in Fratianne Wuzrobbed as well? (yeah I gotta quit mentioning that but he is just so predictable in speaking this way.)
Tuktamysheva: The Views of Frank Carroll
- Thread starter Mao88
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- Aug 23, 2003
I couldn't understanding why Frank was complaining about ET's PCS. She received PCS scores that were in the mid 6's. Her highest PCS score in the LP was 7.00 in Performance, and this for a LP program for which no judge gave -GoE on any element. Whistle clean, skated with speed and attack. Yes, she's "juniorish" because she is young and small and she's not down into the ice yet, but her basic technique is very sound, she's musical and she pays attention to her music and doesn't skate through it. When Michelle was this age, Carroll complained that they didn't give Kwan the title because they didn't want a "little girl" as world champion. When it's his skater who is young, small and lacking in maturity, it's a whole different story.
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- Nov 19, 2010
Is Caroll complaining about the factored PCS?
Or is he complaining about age factoring?
Or is he complaining about age factoring?
One thing watching Tukt's exhibition I got is this is a kid who clearly adores performing and dancing. There was a moment where you could tell she was just completely having fun/dancing to her music in her exhibition that was nice to see. She's got loads of potential in that department. I'm hopeful that Frank will at least say kinder things about Elena and Tarasova's prodigy Adelina. This is the coach who discovered and developed his student Denis Ten, and did a fabulous job.
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- Feb 17, 2010
I'm waiting for his comments on Adelina Sotnikova!!!!
He really can't (shouldn't?) say anything negative about her. To me, she is the FULL package; nothing juniorish about her at all. Even watching her at 2009 Russian Nats she looked mature.
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- Aug 23, 2003
I think I have seen Sotnikova. Is she 13 and she just won a JGP this season? Very polished and mature.
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- Mar 14, 2006
Sotnikova is very polished and mature but are you thinking of Lipnitskaya? AS will skate in seniors this year. Julia L is the bee's knees, but I wouldn't call her very polished and mature yet. But she will be!
No. She's 15 and is the Junior World and Grand Prix Final Champion. Also the 2 time Russian Senior National Champion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScHLHx8AMpw
Adelina makes her debut at the Cup of China.
I really think in a lot of ways she's the best of the young Russians. Supposedly her skating skills are incredible for her age. (She skates with power/speed). But is graceful too. Many say Tukt's got the better jumping technique but Sotnikova's the better skater. Not that Adelina's a bad jumper or Tukts a bad skater. Adelina's jumps are HUGE.
To be frank its really a crying shame because she's one day two young to compete at worlds this year. Sotnikova could win.
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- Oct 20, 2010
I think Adelina's SP from last years Nationals actually does the best job of showing off her skating skills, fall on the combo and all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9YpmHXwBC4&feature=related
She just has great speed and flow, and the program is a really excellent example of the difference between "youthful" and "juniorish". It's extremely youthful, but not juniorish in the least little bit. Her jumps don't have the technique of Liza, but they're still beautiful, and what impresses me the most about her as a skater is how much in both her stroking and her jump setup she uses the rhythm of her music. She listens to and waits for the music, especially in the footwork section. You can tell that with the right training she'd be fantastic at pairs and ice dance, too. Not a lot of kids these days you can say that about.
She just has great speed and flow, and the program is a really excellent example of the difference between "youthful" and "juniorish". It's extremely youthful, but not juniorish in the least little bit. Her jumps don't have the technique of Liza, but they're still beautiful, and what impresses me the most about her as a skater is how much in both her stroking and her jump setup she uses the rhythm of her music. She listens to and waits for the music, especially in the footwork section. You can tell that with the right training she'd be fantastic at pairs and ice dance, too. Not a lot of kids these days you can say that about.
Well she does train at. where some of the greatest Russian female pairs skaters were developed. Her coach was trained by Zhuk. So I guess the great stroking makes sense. The only concern is her programs don't have a huge amount of content choregraphy wise. Although the new short this year is better.
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For those who asked, Tiffany was coached by practically everybody. Frank coached her to her junior world title. Her mother was at the center of the coaching changes and has an entire wing devoted to her in the Meddling Skating Mom Hall of Fame. However, the coaching changes, burnout and emotional issues were not the only problems she had. She did have physical issues between the 85 and 86 seasons that affected her jumps. She lost difficulty over time as a result.
I posted the link of the 3a to illustrate her enormous potential at a young age, not to imply the Frank taught it to her. He did however help develop her and witnessed her decline after she left him and later left Nicks. He's seen it all before with Chin and many other skaters, male and female. So hes not likely to get too keyed up about anyone at this point in his life unless he either sees them develop a track record of success or if he's directly involved in their training. Is he blunt and sometimes tactless? Of course. But that should come as a surprise to no one at this point. To some degree he's earned that right whether we agree with him on substance/approach or not.
BTW, his complaints re: Fratianne's Oly loss was centered around an accusation against Fassi of vote trading. He claimed Carlo bribed judges to give Cousins the gold over Hoffman in exchange for giving Poetzsch the gold over Fratianne. He reportedly had quite the argument with Carlo and their relationship (formerly closer) was frosty for some time afterward.
I posted the link of the 3a to illustrate her enormous potential at a young age, not to imply the Frank taught it to her. He did however help develop her and witnessed her decline after she left him and later left Nicks. He's seen it all before with Chin and many other skaters, male and female. So hes not likely to get too keyed up about anyone at this point in his life unless he either sees them develop a track record of success or if he's directly involved in their training. Is he blunt and sometimes tactless? Of course. But that should come as a surprise to no one at this point. To some degree he's earned that right whether we agree with him on substance/approach or not.
BTW, his complaints re: Fratianne's Oly loss was centered around an accusation against Fassi of vote trading. He claimed Carlo bribed judges to give Cousins the gold over Hoffman in exchange for giving Poetzsch the gold over Fratianne. He reportedly had quite the argument with Carlo and their relationship (formerly closer) was frosty for some time afterward.
That's rich. Wasn't the same criticism leveled at oh, say, one Michelle Kwan, AKA his former student? Also, weren't the same comments made about Oksana Baiul and Tara Lipinski?
While I can see where he's coming from, that the presentation style isn't there yet, I think his contempt is evident by his carrying on about it.
While I can see where he's coming from, that the presentation style isn't there yet, I think his contempt is evident by his carrying on about it.
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- Jul 31, 2003
I thought that after Frank finally got his OGM skater (Evan), he may become softer. Instead he comes across as a bitter old man. May be he has always been that way and finally getting that OGM gives him a free hand to criticize any skater whether she deserves it or not. His comments on Liza are not classy at all. People with true class acknowledge their competitors' talents and success, at least publicly, regardless of what they feel inside.
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- Dec 16, 2006
To quote the late John Candy in Cool Runnings- If you're not enough without the gold medal, you'll never be enough with it.
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- Mar 25, 2008
Here's what Sonia Bianchetti, who was the referee of the men's event in 1980, had to say about Carroll's theory. The most relevant part is near the end:
And Bianchetti's concluding paragraph is spot-on.
I thought it would happen, too. It was the one thing I found to be happy about at the time...
I really think he would have been better telling Beverly Smith that he was focused on Mirai and hadn't seen Liza's programs yet, or something like that.Cool Runnings is fantastic.
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- Mar 27, 2010
I thought it would happen, too. It was the one thing I found to be happy about at the time...
I think Beverly Smith was trying to get her point across through Frank
I totally agree on this and your comment on FS site. Only I haven't registered on FS.
Cousin and Poestch's wins may be debatable but they were also perfectly justifiable in that sport. The idea that the East Germans who had a legit great shot all on their own for 2 Gold medals, would somehow sell out one is silly. Notice how there are no posts wuz robbing Hoffman. Nor do you see Hoffman and his coaches screaming crying about his loss 30 years later. He lost in a close one (and arguable one) it is what is. The man moved on. Something tells me if Annet had been American like (later on Tara) that Frank wouldn't have denigrated her win like that. This doesn't mean there wasn't politics etc. I'm sure there was. But most unbiased observers would say there was nothing wrong with Annet's win.
I read an article with Adelina's coach where she said her former coach Zhuk use to say, you want to win, be clearly better than everyone else. Stand Out. Linda was a very good skater but many would say she was not the great free skater of her generate. (That was Biellman or Adelina's coach!) Nor was she the best at figures, that was by all accounts Annet.
Its just bad form to not accept a loss when any reasonable person who does not have a dog in that fight, can say that the results are defensible. To be upset in the heat of the moment is one thing but to scream about 20/30 years later is another.
And I think Frank's history of this is why people are not wanting to particularly cut him slack when he starts out doing this with a 14 year old.
I read an article with Adelina's coach where she said her former coach Zhuk use to say, you want to win, be clearly better than everyone else. Stand Out. Linda was a very good skater but many would say she was not the great free skater of her generate. (That was Biellman or Adelina's coach!) Nor was she the best at figures, that was by all accounts Annet.
Its just bad form to not accept a loss when any reasonable person who does not have a dog in that fight, can say that the results are defensible. To be upset in the heat of the moment is one thing but to scream about 20/30 years later is another.
And I think Frank's history of this is why people are not wanting to particularly cut him slack when he starts out doing this with a 14 year old.
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The same John Nicks that couldn't get Sasha to ever skate a clean SP and LP in the same event?
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Thanks Bekalc you said it all! It is the length of time Carroll holds onto these issues, plus his continued comments like his current ones about Tuk, that make me feel he lacks class. And what he said didn't show any great discernment anyway. I think most of us can see for ourselves that a 14 year old is going to lack the maturity of an older person.
