Favorite and least favorite coaches?

Nadine · Jan 7, 2012

I still say it's a "blanket statement". That's like me saying all posters that have their favorite skater's name in their pseudonym are the worst type of fan(atic)s I've ever encountered, even though they are, lol. :biggrin:

Seriously, it has been my experience, the most hateful posters I've ever encountered since my time on the internet, which dates back to late 1998/early 1999 (that's when I returned home from the Peace Corps) are usually adults with their favorite so&so in their pseudonym. But notice I didn't say all.

Anyhow, back to coaches, it looks like a tough job, and a thankless one, unless one really loves the sport, and has extreme patience. And just b/c a coach doesn't wear a smile 24/7 it doesn't mean that coach is a SOB, and the opposite is true as well.

Whatever works best for the skater is most important. Some need a push, to get on their case, make them work, whereas others are so self-motivated they may need the very opposite, yet others may be in between. Finding thee right coach where everything clicks could take forever, or never happen, or boom there they are!

This reminds me of Angela Nikodinov, by the grace of God and divine providence she found Elena Tcherkasskaia, and it was magic... :love:

:yay:

lavender · Jan 7, 2012

ivy said:
I wish Nobuo Sato would rub a little circle in my back and then tap the center to send me on my day - like he does for Kozuka before his programs! I've always like Hiroshi Nagakubo quite a bit too, he just seems relaxed, elegant and has coached some of my favorite skaters. Yuka and Jason are my fave on this side of the Pacific.

Tom Z is my least favorite also - his skaters rarely feel complete to me. Robin Wagner bugged me back in the day too - though not sure what she's up to these days.

I forgot about Robin. I have to admit I enjoy not seeing her sitting in the kiss and cry area..

ImaginaryPogue · Jan 7, 2012

Nadine said:
But I hope my point was made - culture has nothing to do with it.

I completely disagree.

Honestly, when discussing "favourite coaches" I have no idea the criterion people are using.

Mathman · Jan 7, 2012

Thank you for posting, Kelly. Welcome!

Nadine · Jan 7, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
I completely disagree.

Honestly, when discussing "favourite coaches" I have no idea the criterion people are using.

Okay, you disagree, but why do you disagree, ImaginaryPogue? Unless you want to leave it at "we agree to disgree". :biggrin:

As regards "favorite coaches", I of course know none of them personally, so I'm just going by what I read and see. And that includes Johnny Weir's documentary, as well as Lucinda Ruh's book "Frozen Teardrop". Everything else is purely based on emotion imho, most likely based on whether or not one likes said coaches "pupils". And if it's a hated skater, oh my!

bigsisjiejie · Jan 8, 2012

Favorites: Don Laws, Frank Carroll, Tamara Moskvina, Carlo Fassi, Betty Callaway

Least: Tom Z, Nikolai Morozov, Robin Wagner, Carol Heiss, Scotvolds

ImaginaryPogue · Jan 8, 2012

Nadine said:
Okay, you disagree, but why do you disagree, ImaginaryPogue? Unless you want to leave it at "we agree to disgree".

While I do agree there are certain fundamental facets of the human condition that transcend culture, culture is such a profound determinant in how we view things. Interactions with others are a great example.

Let's take a a family unit, for example. I'd argue that the relationship within families is profoundly determined by culture. I know my relationship with my mother is different then my cousin's relationship with his mother, and that's because the cultures that inform us (Canadian for me, East-African for him) are completely different. I think one can make general comments about culture, understanding that there are exceptions, explanations, and diversity missing behind any general perception (as you do imply). Things like respect/relationship to authority do differ culturally, and given that a huge part of the coaching relationship involves that, I think it's far to discuss culture here.

I also am not necessarily convinced it's more honest to use one's real name than a made-up one, unless you use your full name. Admittedly, I like changing my internet name to suit me, but I'd argue that my internet handles do describe me in a manner that my name wouldn't.

As regards "favorite coaches", I of course know none of them personally, so I'm just going by what I read and see. And that includes Johnny Weir's documentary, as well as Lucinda Ruh's book "Frozen Teardrop". Everything else is purely based on emotion imho, most likely based on whether or not one likes said coaches "pupils". And if it's a hated skater, oh my!

Yeah, I tend to agree. I dislike Tom Z, but that's because of Farris at Nationals. I dislike Frank Carroll, but that's because he's such a curmudgeon publically. I dislike Mishin, but that's because he doesn't excel in teaching the area I'm really interested in (choreography) even if he's awesome at shaping a competitive mindset as well as a master at teaching jumps.

Olympia · Jan 8, 2012

I don't see how using an assumed screen name denotes dishonesty. The Internet is wide open, and many of us prefer to maintain a certain zone of privacy. I am also a member of a site that includes many youngsters, and we are insistent that they not reveal their real names or their whereabouts, or even their exact ages. This isn't training them to be liars; it's just protecting their safety.

Your observations on cultural differences are especially important these days, Pogue, because both skating and the internet are now international arenas. It's important to remember that everyone doesn't view relationships or even words in the same way. I once innocently used the word ethnic to mean just any cultural entity, and I was questioned by a fellow forum member who understood the word to connote a minority. It was a perfectly natural misunderstanding, made even more tangled by the fact that neither of us had any way of knowing the location, nationality, or heritage of the other.

I once read an anthropologist's comment about the following ethical dilemma: if your mother and your spouse were both drowning, which would you save first? Apparently the culturally obvious response would be entirely different in, say, the U.S. and parts of Asia or Africa. When I first read this, it was an entirely new thought for me. It made me realize that many "givens" in my world view might not be so evident if I asked someone from somewhere else. Certainly a prime example of that would be the way authority is viewed. The example of the coach in the U.S. or Canada vs. in Japan or China is a commonly given one. Another example of the view of authority is the way law enforcement is regarded. In countries such as Scandinavia, people would call the police if they are the victim of a crime. In countries where the police are corrupt or are the enforcers of a dictator's rule, they would not be called so quickly.

chloepoco · Jan 8, 2012

CoyoteChris said:
Yes, I am not surpised by the chair throwing incident....( "Leg wrap THIS!" ) I hope he has softened a bit at this point. I know next to nothing about the Japanese culture, but it is my belief from my knowlege of the Japanese Army in WWII, that beatings and temper bursts, probably were not uncommon in the Japanese coaching world of the 1980s and maybe into the 1990s. When Lucinda said that "you were forbidden to even speak to your coach"
(paraphrase) I think there even was some truth in that. I doubt that he would use physical abuse on Mao. There is too much at stake for him and Japan to try that. Cameras are everywhere now.
Will we ever know the truth about what its really like behine the scenes? The Japanese code of silence is strong. Staying at event hotels, I could tell you some stories about US Junior World team members that are so dismaying to myself that they leave me depressed. I guess I like to think of skaters in the light of the HBO special, "Reflections on Ice", where, in the old days, you were expected to be a lady on and off the ice.

I really don't see how the Japanese Army in WWII has anything to do with Japanese coaching in the 80's and 90's.

Nadine · Jan 8, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
While I do agree there are certain fundamental facets of the human condition that transcend culture, culture is such a profound determinant in how we view things. Interactions with others are a great example.

Let's take a a family unit, for example. I'd argue that the relationship within families is profoundly determined by culture. I know my relationship with my mother is different then my cousin's relationship with his mother, and that's because the cultures that inform us (Canadian for me, East-African for him) are completely different. I think one can make general comments about culture, understanding that there are exceptions, explanations, and diversity missing behind any general perception (as you do imply). Things like respect/relationship to authority do differ culturally, and given that a huge part of the coaching relationship involves that, I think it's far to discuss culture here.

I also am not necessarily convinced it's more honest to use one's real name than a made-up one, unless you use your full name. Admittedly, I like changing my internet name to suit me, but I'd argue that my internet handles do describe me in a manner that my name wouldn't.

Yeah, I tend to agree. I dislike Tom Z, but that's because of Farris at Nationals. I dislike Frank Carroll, but that's because he's such a curmudgeon publically. I dislike Mishin, but that's because he doesn't excel in teaching the area I'm really interested in (choreography) even if he's awesome at shaping a competitive mindset as well as a master at teaching jumps.

I respect what you have to say, ImaginaryPogue, even though you lost me there for a while. Still, I firmly maintain that culture has nothing to do with it, it's the individual. Just like a dichotomy. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Regards pseudonyms, that's never going to change, my opinion holds firm & strong. It's up to the individual. Take me for example, like in life, as on the internet, I use my real name, no alias/pseudonym/nickname/moniker/et al. I chose not to start my internet life on a lie, which began in 1999, as that's when I first bought a computer and wanted to see what the big fuss was all about.

Of course the first thing I searched for was Oksana Baiul site's (so young was I) and made friends that I still see posting on the 'net today (we all use our real names), and from there I found Adrian Chew's site (think it was called FSW, I only remember his name b/c like me he used his full real name as well, which I respected). Anyhow, I've always been me, the real me, despite being stalked by a psycho on meds posting from a library. It's the chance we take being ourselves, but I know that, and yet I choose to take that risk. Finito!

Now back to coaches, I named my favorite ones already, based on reading said skaters' opinion about them and also observation via documentary. As to least favorite, lol, might as well put Frank Carroll in there because of politics, but then again that would include all coaches because one way or another they all play the political game, some less so than others, especially if they come from a nobody federation, but still they all play the game. Jmho.

sky_fly20 · Jan 8, 2012

Bryan Orser, Tamara Moskvina, Tatiana Tarasova, Nobou Sato

least:

Nikolai Morozov, Tom Z. , Frank Caroll

ryanbfan · Jan 9, 2012

I don't like Tom Z at all. My friend used to skate at the Broadmoor and is excellent friends with Brandon Mroz. Not going into any details but I have more than enough reasons to dislike him. Plus he was a total d bag to Ryan, I wish Ryan would've switched but he was very loyal to Tom Z. And going on with what everyone else said, his skaters always seem unprepared and lack artistic ability as well as consistent jumping.

I really like Frank Carroll personally. I am curious as to why some of you dislike him? I am friends with Andrew Gonzales who is now coached by him and he loves Frank. We talk about Frank's way of coaching a lot and I've never heard of him doing anything extremely negative or bad to Andrew.

mskater93 · Jan 9, 2012

I am curious about the dislike of Frank as well. One of my coaches worked with Frank in the early-mid 90s and absolutely ADORED working with him. He uses many of the same techniques and "coaching" processes (there are differences here - the coaching "processes" are more about competitive mindset and progression than about technique) with me and I love the way he teaches (otherwise I wouldn't be paying him since I am an adult and not a kept housewife therefore pay for my own skating).

I wonder if these people who dislike Frank are the ones who think Mirai's talent is being "wasted by Frank" rather than being "wasted by Mirai".

dorispulaski · Jan 9, 2012

Frank may be a great guy, and a great coach, but he could use some work on how to behave in public, IMO.

I know that some of my dislike for Frank is due to his tendency to air stuff that I feel should be kept between the coach and the skater. Granted, Goebel, Nagasu and Bowman were difficult to work with in different ways, none the less, they and their parents paid Carroll's salary, and he should have resisted the temptation to gossip about/downgrade/discuss the work habits of/ his skaters in the public press. If he behaved with all his skaters the way he behaved about the split with Michelle Kwan (neither discussing the details of their split in any detail), I would think better of him. I also wasn't crazy about his endless wuzrobbing about Linda Fratianne. Even if he believed Linda had been robbed of Olympic gold, going on and on about it for years was not good for the sport, and certainly didn't help Linda move on.

sky_fly20 · Jan 9, 2012

dorispulaski said:
Frank may be a great guy, and a great coach, but he could use some work on how to behave in public, IMO.
.

THIS exactly

Tinymavy15 · Jan 9, 2012

mskater93 said:
I wonder if these people who dislike Frank are the ones who think Mirai's talent is being "wasted by Frank" rather than being "wasted by Mirai".

indeed. Frank is responsible for any bright moments we have seen from Mirari recently.

genki · Jan 10, 2012

CoyoteChris said:
Yes, I am not surpised by the chair throwing incident....( "Leg wrap THIS!" ) I hope he has softened a bit at this point. I know next to nothing about the Japanese culture, but it is my belief from my knowlege of the Japanese Army in WWII, that beatings and temper bursts, probably were not uncommon in the Japanese coaching world of the 1980s and maybe into the 1990s. When Lucinda said that "you were forbidden to even speak to your coach"
(paraphrase) I think there even was some truth in that. I doubt that he would use physical abuse on Mao.

This is so hard to believe. Mr. Sato threw a chair to Yukari? I am 100 % Japanese living in US. One thing that I want to tell you about Japanese culture is that we pay a lot of respect to a teacher. So Lucienda's example is the way that we show our respect, but not something unreasonable. Beating sometimes happened at elementary school, when I was young, but it usually happened in the context that teachers were most likely to discipline kids, not to abuse them. Sometime, we Japanese use words," whip of love." meaning corporal punishment with benign intention.

Well, it is getting tough to explain our culture. Anyway, I believe that Japanese coaches have much deeper relationship with skaters, compared with American coaches. They often act more like family members rather than a hired coach. Good example of this is Dai and Coach Nagamitsu , who took then poor Dai in when he became a University student. They lived together for about 5 years during which time Nagamitsu took care of Dai, just like his mother. Dai always says " My coach is Utako Sensei. I could not make it without her!," Midori Ito and Coach Yamada also have a similar relationship. Yamada took in Midori, whose parents got divorced when she was really young. She grew up with Yamada's kids just like her family members.

Mao's fans in Japan believe that Mr. Sato and Mrs. Sato are like her second family. All fans thought that it's really helpful to have the Satos near Mao, when she went through very difficult time last year. So please do not think that Mr. Sato may be abusive to Mao. He is known to be strict, but it is what we call "whip of love." I believe,

Olympia · Jan 10, 2012

Thanks for the explantation, Genki. It's always hard explaining parts of one's culture that others find incomprehensible. We've all experienced that moment. One of the great things about GS is that it gives all of us such a great opportunity to learn about contexts other than our own.

Tinymavy15 · Jan 10, 2012

dorispulaski said:
Frank may be a great guy, and a great coach, but he could use some work on how to behave in public, IMO.

I know that some of my dislike for Frank is due to his tendency to air stuff that I feel should be kept between the coach and the skater. Granted, Goebel, Nagasu and Bowman were difficult to work with in different ways, none the less, they and their parents paid Carroll's salary, and he should have resisted the temptation to gossip about/downgrade/discuss the work habits of/ his skaters in the public press. If he behaved with all his skaters the way he behaved about the split with Michelle Kwan (neither discussing the details of their split in any detail), I would think better of him. I also wasn't crazy about his endless wuzrobbing about Linda Fratianne. Even if he believed Linda had been robbed of Olympic gold, going on and on about it for years was not good for the sport, and certainly didn't help Linda move on.

Concerning Frank's desire to publicly degrade his skaters who don't work as hard as he expects them too...I think of lot of it is defensive. He does not want his peers, other skaters etc think that he is satisfied with anything sub par. Frank expects every skater to try their best every time, and he can't stand slackers. Unfortunately he gets his share of them.

brightphoton · Jan 10, 2012

"Why don't you pick on someone your own size?"

It's lucky the the people who hold the "whips of love" always beat people who are smaller and weaker than them. Strange how you never see the whips of love among people of equal stature (unless you're into the kinky stuff). Probably because the other person would fight back and whip your behind into next week. And take your eyes and teeth with them.

Favorite and least favorite coaches?

Nadine

lavender

ImaginaryPogue

Mathman

Nadine

bigsisjiejie

ImaginaryPogue

Olympia

chloepoco

Nadine

sky_fly20

Match Penalty

ryanbfan

mskater93

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

sky_fly20

Match Penalty

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

genki

Olympia

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

brightphoton

Similar threads

Connect with us