Flatt looking to shake off poor Grand Prix season

Mrs. P · Jan 24, 2012

Jammers said:
Plus skaters like Debbie were better skaters then Rachael ever will be. As for the older skaters winning events in their mid-20's again they are skaters who are more talented then Rachael ever will be.

But talent doesn't always equal success. Otherwise Mirai would be winning everything. I don't think it's impossible for Rachael to make a comeback, especially after she's done with school. Anything is possible if you work at it.

Louisa, I agree the "burnout culture" is a bad idea and that one should have balance in life; but I don't think that means that it's impossible have a good college experience and compete. I think it's one thing to say "Don't overdo it," it's another thing to say "Don't bother trying." That's what I take issue with. I just don't get this "all-or-nothing" attitude. As mskater93 said, perhaps she one of those types that likes to juggle different things.

And hasn't occurred to anyone that playing sports — whether collegiate or professionally — can be part of the college experience? Granted she's not competing against her classmates, but she is among people who are dealing with similar workloads. I'm sure she's made friends with people who are dealing with similar situation and learning from them.

Certainly she'll have to make adjustments — she's acknowledge just as much — but to say she should give up skating because of her setbacks is bit much.

tulosai · Jan 24, 2012

Mrs. P said:
But talent doesn't always equal success. Otherwise Mirai would be winning everything. I don't think it's impossible for Rachael to make a comeback, especially after she's done with school. Anything is possible if you work at it.

Louisa, I agree the "burnout culture" is a bad idea and that one should have balance in life; but I don't think that means that it's impossible have a good college experience and compete. I think it's one thing to say "Don't overdo it," it's another thing to say "Don't bother trying." That's what I take issue with. I just don't get this "all-or-nothing" attitude. As mskater93 said, perhaps she one of those types that likes to juggle different things.

And hasn't occurred to anyone that playing sports — whether collegiate or professionally — can be part of the college experience? Granted she's not competing against her classmates, but she is among people who are dealing with similar workloads. I'm sure she's made friends with people who are dealing with similar situation and learning from them.

Certainly she'll have to make adjustments — she's acknowledge just as much — but to say she should give up skating because of her setbacks is bit much.

The truth is most college athletes don't take hard classes though. I don't mean to offend anyone or make over generalizations but I went to Northwestern, which is a great and challenging school. I was, through what could best be called a twist of fate, friends with many on the football team there. They were ALL (and I do mean ALL) in the liberal arts and had a counselor who told them the easiest classes they could possibly take to pass. I mean this as NO insult to athletes and NO comment on their overall intelligence, but the fact is that many college athletes take the easiest classes they can so that school doesn't take up as much of their time/is not as challenging. Rachael is an engineer as were the other group of my friends in college (I was dating one). They have INSANE schedules and are INSANELY busy with problem sets and labs ALL OF THE TIME. Her major is not conducive to also spending 8 hours a day training in some capacity (on ice and also off ice fitness regimen).

Again, I admit these are generalizations. I do not take issue with Rachael not wanting to postpone education and ABSOLUTELY think it is her right to try to do it all. And she IS doing it all. However, it would REALLY surprise me if she were able to do it all WELL, and I think we do have some evidence that she hasn't been able to (though I reserve judgment until Saturday- and also though we have no clue how her grades are).

Just my two cents.

mskater93 · Jan 24, 2012

tulosai said:
The truth is most college athletes don't take hard classes though. I don't mean to offend anyone or make over generalizations but I went to Northwestern, which is a great and challenging school. I was, through what could best be called a twist of fate, friends with many on the football team there. They were ALL (and I do mean ALL) in the liberal arts and had a counselor who told them the easiest classes they could possibly take to pass. I mean this as NO insult to athletes and NO comment on their overall intelligence, but the fact is that many college athletes take the easiest classes they can so that school doesn't take up as much of their time/is not as challenging. Rachael is an engineer as were the other group of my friends in college (I was dating one). They have INSANE schedules and are INSANELY busy with problem sets and labs ALL OF THE TIME. Her major is not conducive to also spending 8 hours a day training in some capacity (on ice and also off ice fitness regimen).Just my two cents.

I also went to Northwestern (engineer) and I am pretty close to the football program now due to football booster/season ticket holder status. Very few players are in the easiest majors any more (not that there are really any *easy* majors at NU compared to most other schools) and our head football coach is very serious about team GPA. 61 guys had over a 3.0 during fall quarter (football season) this school year (out of 85 players) and 14 of the guys who saw significant playing time (2 deep) are in graduate school. One of those guys is Patrick Ward, the starting right guard, who has over a 3.7 in Mechanical Engineering (and he's a Junior). Also, three of the starting Offensive Lineman on the Rose Bowl team (1995-6) were majoring in either BME or ChemE and all had a 3.8 or higher (in fact, Rob Johnson, who was the starting center, had a 3.98 in BME and admittance to med school waiting for him). Things have changed - expectations especially. Also, there were 17 Women's Cross Country athletes who were academic all conference and 14 of them were majoring in some form of engineering. It CAN be done for those that figure out the right schedule and who can forgo sleep.

As I stated earlier, Debbie's BEST season as a competitor was 1986 (World Champion) and she was carrying a full load at Stanford that year and competing at her highest level. It was the Olympic season when she took a leave from Stanford to focus on that once-in-a-lifetime shot. When she was competing at her best (86 and 87), she was inordinately busy with school, too.

Poodlepal · Jan 24, 2012

skateluvr said:
I agree we may have seen her best international event in Vancouver. I don't think she stands a chance against the Russian babies. I thought this was maybe her swan season. I agree that international judges don't like her looks or body type. Her posture isn't really bad. She has no neck, and sloopy shoulders. She is matronly looking.

None of this is her fault. If this is what the judges are deducting points for, then the code of points REALLY needs to be changed.

YOu know what? I'm officially rooting for her after reading this. She has a good of a chance as any of the ladies. She may not have the petite body type of many of the
Asian and Asian-American skaters, or the long, skinny body type of Carolina Kostner, but she has done incredibly well despite it all. It was wrong for her to skate on a broken leg last year, but she has done nothing to deserve the animosity some people have towards her (and I don't mean you, skateluvr. I deleted part of your quote, but I read it).

Go Rachael!

louisa05 · Jan 24, 2012

I would just like to point out that I did not imply that Rachael should quit competing if she wants to be a student.

Plenty of skaters have recently been successful balancing school and skating such as Czisny, Davis and White, and others. Czisny, however, took online courses to minimize her time on campus and has had her best seasons since finishing school. She also never attempted to live on campus.

Rachael can do school and skating. But the fall season has made it clear that skating results are likely to suffer. I believe this is not because of school so much as her choice to attend Stanford and her desire to have the full college experience. If she were at a university close to elite training centers with options for online course work, lived off campus where she has better options for maintaining nutrition and could get more adequate rest (I lived in a college dorm for four years...let's not pretend they are the best place for an elite athlete to get adequate sleep), and wasn't focused on the social experience of college, she could make this work.

And Debbie's experience is not very comparable due to the absence of a full fall season in her time.

Mrs. P · Jan 24, 2012

louisa05 said:
I would just like to point out that I did not imply that Rachael should quit competing if she wants to be a student.

Plenty of skaters have recently been successful balancing school and skating such as Czisny, Davis and White, and others. Czisny, however, took online courses to minimize her time on campus and has had her best seasons since finishing school. She also never attempted to live on campus.

Rachael can do school and skating. But the fall season has made it clear that skating results are likely to suffer. I believe this is not because of school so much as her choice to attend Stanford and her desire to have the full college experience. If she were at a university close to elite training centers with options for online course work, lived off campus where she has better options for maintaining nutrition and could get more adequate rest (I lived in a college dorm for four years...let's not pretend they are the best place for an elite athlete to get adequate sleep), and wasn't focused on the social experience of college, she could make this work.

And Debbie's experience is not very comparable due to the absence of a full fall season in her time.

No, you certainly didn't, but that vibe definitely came across from the other posts I read.

I think the main impact to her skating, as noted in the ESPN and Ice Network articles, was that freaking long commute between Stanford and the ice rink. And she's made adjustments, including lightening up her course load and taking the train instead of driving, to try to fix that problem. Who knows, perhaps next year she'll choose to live closer to rink and commute to Stanford.

Ultimately, and I guess that is my last thoughts on the subject (probably, anyway), it comes down to what makes Rachael happy. I feel that despite the challenges — injury, bad GP results, etc. — that she still LOVES skating. If she's happy with what she's doing then why should she quit, especially if she still does well enough to earn trips to the GP events or other competitions?

chuckm · Jan 25, 2012

ITA Mrs. P. But there are Rachael haterz on this board who are anxious for her to disappear ASAP. They just refuse to recognize that Rachael's career moves are not their decision to make.

louisa05 · Jan 25, 2012

Practice reports around the web are that she looks like she is not in top competitive shape.

This is the problem with what she's trying to do. A full college experience complete with the cafeteria, the dorm and social events is likely not conducive to being in the best physical condition.

I guess we'll know what kind of shape she's in tomorrow night.

Mrs. P · Jan 25, 2012

louisa05 said:
Practice reports around the web are that she looks like she is not in top competitive shape.

This is the problem with what she's trying to do. A full college experience complete with the cafeteria, the dorm and social events is likely not conducive to being in the best physical condition.

I guess we'll know what kind of shape she's in tomorrow night.

Where are these reports? FSU? I haven't seen a thing on Twitter, except for one spectator who thought she did a nice SP at one point in the practice.

R.D. · Jan 25, 2012

Not a surprise, of course. I think the thing for Flatt is not so much how SHE's gonna do, but how her competition will fare. At least from initial practice reports sounds like they are ready to go.

tulosai · Jan 25, 2012

Mrs. P said:
Where are these reports? FSU? I haven't seen a thing on Twitter, except for one spectator who thought she did a nice SP at one point in the practice.

I will say the following:

1. I also haven't seen anything and would love links if people have in fact said things about Rachael.

2. It's unsurprising she's doing a good short- she's kept the same short for 2 years. I'd be more interested if she did the lutz in the short and/or a triple-triple (though I think she's given those up for good) or about reports about the long.

3. I agree that in a way it depends on how others do. There is no way after this season/last years Worlds that USFSA will put a clean Rachael above a clean Alyssa, Mirai, or even Ashley. However, if they falter and Rachael is ready, it could still happen. However it also depends how she does- primarily if she has the lutz back. I think she will have a hard time nabbing a Worlds spot (mistakes or no) without the lutz.

I am excited for tomorrow.

Sasha'sSpins · Jan 26, 2012

Mrs. P said:
I don't get why Mirai is seen as the best chance of three spots. Mirai has not scored 120+ this season in the LP and her PB's only a few points above Ashley so far this season.

She has proven that she is no better than Ashley in handling pressure. Her achievements have only arrived when the pressure is off (see GP 2010 and 2011 and 2011 4CC). The only time where she achieved under pressure is during 2010 Nationals. I think it's anyone's game and I agree with RD that we could easily see a shakeup like we saw in Canada tonight from one of the younger skaters.

You may dismiss Mirai's achievments at the GPs and 2011 4CCs but I think 4th place at her first major international namely the Olympics, 1st in the SP and 7th place overall at her first Worlds, and placing above Rachael the then-reigning U.S. Champion each of those times at these two most-major competitions is a pretty huge achievement for any young athlete in my book. Rachael was in top form at the Olympics and managed 7th but again, Mirai still beat her. Same at Worlds-Mirai still out-ranked her.

International judges prefer Mirai to Rachael even when Flatt is at her best. Why this is difficult for some to grasp I'm not quite sure.

R.D. said:
I said before- it's a learning process. I went through it myself a few years ago and I'm sure you all have as well.

Of course, it wasn't at this scale, but it was the same lesson in principle; figuring how much you can handle and the best way to do so.

Flatt apparently thought she could do both- and is now finding out that it's not nearly as simple as she may have thought initially. What sounds good or workable in theory often doesn't play out well in practice. I said it from the start- SOMETHING is going to take a hit since you can't give 100% to both school and high-level skating. I won't get into the school part, since this is a skate forum, but in terms of her skating- if she wants to bounce back and get to where she was in 2009, it's going to require a lot of time and effort- time she likely doesn't have and effort she likely cannot give due to school commitment. Thus it's a bit hard to imagine there'll be a significant turnaround in her performance this week compared to December.

We'll find out in a few days. It seems every National title contender has had some sort of documented struggle this season (save Wagner perhaps), so this might be interesting. Traditionally Nationals is Flatt's strongest event- and perhaps Wagner's weakest.

As the old saying goes-it is difficult to serve two masters.

Sasha'sSpins · Jan 26, 2012

louisa05 said:
Practice reports around the web are that she looks like she is not in top competitive shape.

This is the problem with what she's trying to do. A full college experience complete with the cafeteria, the dorm and social events is likely not conducive to being in the best physical condition.

I guess we'll know what kind of shape she's in tomorrow night.

Agreed. She is apparently landing flips and lutzes but doubling quite a few jumps. Good reports are coming in for Alissa, Mirai, and Ashley as well as Caroline Zhang. All four, per reports, seem in top form. These reports are on FSU as well as some reports on Twitter.

Of course it's just practice. Tomorrow will tell. Mirai and Alissa skate early, Ashley and Rachael in the later flights.

Sasha'sSpins · Jan 26, 2012

Mrs. P said:
Where are these reports? FSU? I haven't seen a thing on Twitter, except for one spectator who thought she did a nice SP at one point in the practice.

So rinkside practice reports aren't credible to you if they're from fans in stands who post on FSU versus on Twitter? I see.

Doug was asked @DougMattis if Mirai was emoting better than in the GPs.
https://twitter.com/#!/DougMattis

He tweeted back one word: "YES!"

That's good to hear! And a few more:

As a former Frank student, you get to know the body-language. When he crosses his arms for Mirai, he is saying "No shenanigans. DO IT."
24 Jan Favorite Retweet Reply

DougMattis Doug Mattis
@USFigureSkating Mirai just did an amazing long program with every triple and spin. Frank has uncrossed his arms. #fFrankCarrolRules
24 Jan Favorite Retweet Reply

Sr Ladies Grp C on ice @USFigureSkating and Mirai and Agnes look particularly fit and fast over the ice. Sitting with Agnes's mom-so nice.
24 Jan Favorite Retweet Reply

Mrs. P · Jan 26, 2012

Sasha'sSpins said:
You may dismiss Mirai's achievments at the GPs and 2011 4CCs but I think 4th place at her first major international namely the Olympics, 1st in the SP and 7th place overall at her first Worlds, and placing above Rachael the then-reigning U.S. Champion each of those times at these two most-major competitions is a pretty huge achievement for any young athlete in my book. Rachael was in top form at the Olympics and managed 7th but again, Mirai still beat her. Same at Worlds-Mirai still out-ranked her.

International judges prefer Mirai to Rachael even when Flatt is at her best. Why this is difficult for some to grasp I'm not quite sure.

Look, i wasn't comparing Rachael to Mirai in my comment. I don't dispute that Mirai does better than Rachael when she's on. All I'm saying is that, in general, she seems to do better when she's has less pressure on her. In all the situations you mentioned in 2010, it could be argued that she had less pressure being No. 2 USA. With a few exceptions, she does not perform well when she is ranked No. 1 -- particularity after the short program. There's reason for all those joke(ish?) posts "please let her be second after the SP!" in various event threads.

Sasha'sSpins said:
So rinkside practice reports aren't credible to you if they're from fans in stands who post on FSU versus on Twitter? I see.

WOW, you totally read too much into my comment. 1.) I was responding to (and inquiring about) practice reports about RACHAEL. ( after all this is her thread). 2.) I don't have a problem with practice reports with FSU -- but since I'm not a subscriber, I couldn't find them or see them. 3.) Since I don't subscribe to FSU, I depend on Twitter. It's that simple. (And yes I saw the Doug Mattis tweets. I've enjoyed them)

Look, I may come across as some sort of Rachael fan/ Mirai hater, but really I don't have skin in the game for either. I'm just believe that everyone is so down on Rachael for X,Y,Z while other skaters seem to get a pass on different flaws/disavantages/etc because of scoring potential/their artistry/whatever while Rachael isn't given the same courtesy. That's all.

That said, people are entitled to their opinion, I just like to give perspective/opinion that isn't there.

As far as I'm concerned, practice reports and all, what counts is what happens this afternoon in the SP. And I hope that every skater will bring their best A game tonight!

tulosai · Jan 26, 2012

Mrs. P said:
Look, I may come across as some sort of Rachael fan/ Mirai hater, but really I don't have skin in the game for either. I'm just believe that everyone is so down on Rachael for X,Y,Z while other skaters seem to get a pass on different flaws/disavantages/etc because of scoring potential/their artistry/whatever while Rachael isn't given the same courtesy. That's all.

That said, people are entitled to their opinion, I just like to give perspective/opinion that isn't there.

As far as I'm concerned, practice reports and all, what counts is what happens this afternoon in the SP. And I hope that every skater will bring their best A game tonight!

I think the truth is that those people to some degree just prefer watching other skaters over watching Rachael. I'm okay with it when they admit that (to a degree I am the same) but I do agree the animus toward Rachael goes too far. I will say, however, that some things she used to have going for her (primarily her consistency) are no longer present (I am aware that might be due to injuries not mental but she hasn't had a good competition really since Vancouver) so in some people's minds there is nothing left to praise.

Mrs. P · Jan 26, 2012

tulosai said:
I think the truth is that those people to some degree just prefer watching other skaters over watching Rachael. I'm okay with it when they admit that (to a degree I am the same) but I do agree the animus toward Rachael goes too far. I will say, however, that some things she used to have going for her (primarily her consistency) are no longer present (I am aware that might be due to injuries not mental but she hasn't had a good competition really since Vancouver) so in some people's minds there is nothing left to praise.

I think the point you made here (I made it in bold) is why I find myself defending her when again, I'm not particularly a huge fan (though I respect her as a person and skater). I find it sad that someone who is so determined, so hard working and so driven is so torn apart on these figure skating boards. I feel that even if Rachael does well that there will be people out there will say that it's because so-and-so messed up or that the judges are giving her points rather than that Rachael had a good skate. And when she doesn't do well, people will use that to say "see, Rachael sucks and useless and doesn't deserve to the opportunity to skate."

I do disagree with your assessment that she hasn't had a good competition since Vancouver. She had a decent run during the 2010-2011 GP series and actually won the free program at both her events (NHK Trophy and Skate America). She did OK at 4CC with a 4th place finish.

Flatt looking to shake off poor Grand Prix season

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

tulosai

mskater93

Poodlepal

louisa05

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

chuckm

louisa05

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

R.D.

tulosai

Sasha'sSpins

Sasha'sSpins

Sasha'sSpins

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

tulosai

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

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