Czisny: FB Post and Hip surgery

skateluvr said:

I think we only have certain facts about Alissa. Let's not decide just yet she lacks morals, courage etc. We don't have facts but speculation. I wrote a support thread after CC but felt she should retire after worlds regardless of what went wrong=phsically mentally or both, but I agree with MM that people shouldn't call her Shady. She has pressures...herself, her coaches, USFS, her fans. Maybe it's very hard knowing what to do when you have pain, but not sure the etiology or if it is permanent. We are mostly fans here of AC as she has been around a long time, and she has smitten us with her beauty and some truly beautiful skating mpments. Alissa is special for many reasons, and she may be done. So let's respect all she has struggled to give to us her fans when she is by nature a girl who loves to skate but has fought her comp. nerves all her life. I think I would give AC the benefit of the doubt when she doesn't have all the facts herself. Pushing through pain is how top athletes and many of us live.

Click to expand...

Your whole post is nice skateluvr! Just wondering about this:

I am surprised if there aren't regularly check ups on skaters like Alissa. Doesn't her club provide a doctor to talk to if she feels something is wrong? A doctor with knowledge on sports injuries. So that she can have a more successful treatment than if she waits until she practically can't move. When I read posts about Rachael and Alissa it seems like their teams only consist of them, their coaches and maybe parents.

And isn't there some kind of National team doctor to consult?

Anyway, really good luck to Alissa at this hard time and in the future :thumbsup:

Olympia said:

I agree. We don't know enough to criticize her--or Rachael. I continue to respect them both for their efforts as skaters and the way in which they represented their country and skating itself.

Let's see how Alissa recuperates, and then we'll know whether she chooses to continue in competition, go pro, or retire. I support her whatever she decides (and hope that she continues skating in some venue or other).

Click to expand...

:thumbsup:

Poor thing Its a tough procedure to rehab

skateluvr said:

Were there so many injuries in the days of Peggy, Doro, Linda Fratianne, Janet Lynn? Everyone seems to end up injured with all kinds of issues.

Click to expand...

For one thing, all four of the champions that you mentioned retired at 19. Maybe there should be an age limit -- 20 and out.

Plus, back then they pretty much did only Nationals and Worlds, possibly with an occasional North American Championship or Nebelhorn Trophy thrown in. Skaters now compete and train for competition nine months of the year.

And also they did not have to train the arsenal of triple jumps that skaters do now.

Add this all up and I think the top skaters of today, in common with professional athletes in other sports, are signing up for a life time of physical problems. The difference between figure skating and football is that top footballers are compensated with contracts in the tens of millions of dollars.

snowflake said:

I am surprised if there aren't regularly check ups on skaters like Alissa. Doesn't her club provide a doctor to talk to if she feels something is wrong? A doctor with knowledge on sports injuries. So that she can have a more successful treatment than if she waits until she practically can't move. When I read posts about Rachael and Alissa it seems like their teams only consist of them, their coaches and maybe parents.

Click to expand...

Not to be rude, but a reality check question, snowflake: Who's going to pay for a club doctor? Most clubs charge members between $75 and $200 a season (unless ice time is included and required to be purchased through the club, then it is much higher) and $50 goes to USFS out of that. The balance typically covers the shortfalls from club ice time payments (~$300/hour to the club from the rink, the club then charges members something like $15 per hour which requires 20 skaters on the session to break even - which doesn't typically happen - or sometimes the club charges less expecting to cover the shortfall with dues). It's also why many clubs host an annual competition - to cover their operating short falls. Clubs are typically 501c3 non-profit organizations. In addition, many clubs offer their qualifying level skaters some assistance (for example, if you skate at a qualifying level, ie Juvenile and up, in my club and go to Regionals, your entry fee is given back to you as some relief for the costs of skating. If you make JNs, Sectionals, Nationals, or are given international assignments, the Board of Directors votes on whether to provide additional assistance to those members. This is also something that is discussed for Theater on Ice teams and Synchro teams - what assistance they should receive for Sectionals, Nationals, TOI Worlds, etc). So again, the question is, who's going to pay for it?

mskater93 said:

Not to be rude, but a reality check question, snowflake: Who's going to pay for a club doctor? Most clubs charge members between $75 and $200 a season (unless ice time is included and required to be purchased through the club, then it is much higher) and $50 goes to USFS out of that. The balance typically covers the shortfalls from club ice time payments (~$300/hour to the club from the rink, the club then charges members something like $15 per hour which requires 20 skaters on the session to break even - which doesn't typically happen - or sometimes the club charges less expecting to cover the shortfall with dues). It's also why many clubs host an annual competition - to cover their operating short falls. Clubs are typically 501c3 non-profit organizations. In addition, many clubs offer their qualifying level skaters some assistance (for example, if you skate at a qualifying level, ie Juvenile and up, in my club and go to Regionals, your entry fee is given back to you as some relief for the costs of skating. If you make JNs, Sectionals, Nationals, or are given international assignments, the Board of Directors votes on whether to provide additional assistance to those members. This is also something that is discussed for Theater on Ice teams and Synchro teams - what assistance they should receive for Sectionals, Nationals, TOI Worlds, etc). So again, the question is, who's going to pay for it?

Click to expand...

Obamacare!

Until it's struck down as unconstitutional.

mskater93 said:

Not to be rude, but a reality check question, snowflake: Who's going to pay for a club doctor?.....

Click to expand...

Okay, okay… I understand all you say. "Club" was the wrong word. I see Alissa, Jeremy, Adam, Valentina etc training together with their coaches, but I don't know what to call their organization. Thought there might be arrangements/insurances to help them with health issues. But I suppose they have their own insurances then, that pay for health controls, treatments and surgeries. My main point was that if you are an elite athlete you need and usually have access to a sports doctor.

Im wishing Alissa a speedy recovery

snowflake said:

Okay, okay… I understand all you say. "Club" was the wrong word. I see Alissa, Jeremy, Adam, Valentina etc training together with their coaches, but I don't know what to call their organization. Thought there might be arrangements/insurances to help them with health issues. But I suppose they have their own insurances then, that pay for health controls, treatments and surgeries. My main point was that if you are an elite athlete you need and usually have access to a sports doctor.

Click to expand...

As with most things with regard to health insurance and dealing with injuries and whatnot, it's personal choice in the US who your healthcare provider is (if any) and what (if any) doctor you choose to deal with and what type of doctor you choose to deal with...When you used the word "club" I assumed you were implying DSC (Detroit Skating Club) and that's really outside the purview of their responsibilities.

^ IMHO that is why the USFSA has limited jurisdiction at best over injuries to skaters and should not be in the business of criticizing them after the fact, like Rachael last year.

Amen. I was not for criticizing Rachael last year, nor am I about criticizing Alissa this year, for using the spots at Worlds that each earned fairly.

The same poor judgment/decision making from two skaters yields two completely differing reactions on the forums. Quite amazing to watch, honestly...exposing the clear double standard.

R.D. said:

The same poor judgment/decision making from two skaters yields two completely differing reactions on the forums. Quite amazing to watch, honestly...exposing the clear double standard.

Click to expand...

Not really... as far as I know Rachel's team had been aware of the injury going into WC and chose not to disclose it to TPTB. Alissa's team had not been aware of symptom of injury until after WC (although her poor showing surely should have ticked a few warning signs), where she start to experienced pain at a skating show weeks later then confirmed via MRI needing surgery another 2 weeks later.

I have no opinion on what is the best way forward given this is a grueling sport that takes so much toll on athlete's physical well being, especially for the ladies. Alissa is a world class athlete who contributed tremendously to this sport that need hip surgery at age 26. Who knows what the side effects of this in her later life. Every time they go out there, something is more at the risk than just national interests and pride, and who knows if this is at all covered by health insurance either by the federations or privately. That Michael Moore film scares me. I really hope she makes a full recovery, skating should be the last thing on her mind.

I agree with R.D. (and disagree with OS) about the double standard. People on the message boards didn't like Rachael much anyway and were ticked off because she placed over Mirai at Nationals. (Phil Hersh was the biggest cheerleader for this point of view -- without Hersh's nagging USFS would have just let the matter drop.)

Alissa, on the other hand -- aw, what's not to like? She's our sweetheart, win or lose.

R.D. said:

The same poor judgment/decision making from two skaters yields two completely differing reactions on the forums. Quite amazing to watch, honestly...exposing the clear double standard.

Click to expand...

I have always been dismayed by the harsh criticism of Rachael in general and have spoken up for her at various times though I don't wade into the unfamiliar muddy water of USFSA's policies and practices. As far as I can tell, some of the posters here supporting Alissa have also supported Rachael or at least are not Flatt bashers. Alissa perhaps is lucky not to have fervid detractors like Rachael does but it doesn't make supporting her double standard. I am a supporter of admirable young athletes like Alissa and Rachael but I am not a competition judge or federation official. Let skaters do their best and earn their marks and competition entries but whatever they do on the ice should have no effect on them being dedicated young people deserving sympathy and support when they suffer serious injuries from long hard training for a sport that brings us so much enjoyment.

I agree that sympathy and support are in order, but the fact of the matter is we have had two different skaters, two seasons in a row, underperform at Worlds. In both cases an injury has been a factor. There was talk among people on this board about whether Alissa should be taken off the team, so even though many of us didn't know there was an injury we did see the poor performances coming. I was not an advocate for taking her off the team because of the result at the event 2 weeks prior to Worlds, but only because the USFSA has not changed the Worlds line-up so close to the event ever. I think the USFSA needs to give itself more options in the future to change up the World team given what has happened the past two years because it cannot rely solely on the athlete's decision whether or not to compete. Alissa's performance at Nationals was mediocre enough that if I were the USFSA I'd probably want one more data point (such as 4CC) before placing her on the team.

Not really... as far as I know Rachel's team had been aware of the injury going into WC and chose not to disclose it to TPTB. Alissa's team had not been aware of symptom of injury until after WC (although her poor showing surely should have ticked a few warning signs), where she start to experienced pain at a skating show weeks later then confirmed via MRI needing surgery another 2 weeks later.

Click to expand...

...you seriously think team Czisny didn't at least know SOMETHING wasn't right? Even if they weren't aware of a specific injury, per se...

Like with Flatt, they knew she was a shell of her former self performance-wise, yet she still went. Not like Zawadzki would have been that much of an upgrade over an injured Czisny (WADR), but still, it's the thought that matters. Not to mention continuing to compete and taking multiple falls like that could put her at further risk.

By "double standard" I'm referring to those posters who were quick to pounce on Flatt for skating injured at Worlds, but somehow are willing to give Czisny a pass, rationalizing her statements, etc. (you know who you are) All this shows is that said posters either a) hate Flatt, b) love Czisny or c) both. Other posters like MM have been consistent in supporting both Flatt and Czisny, so they're not the ones I'm referring to. I got on team Flatt's case last year and this year I'm on team Czisny's case. I seem to have angered a lot more people this year than last year even though I'm essentially saying the same thing

As for Phil Hersh, it's a shame. He's probably the best example of this double standard! He really went after USFS post Flatt-gate/tibiagate and had them get to the bottom of what happened. But this year, he just seems to accept what happened and is even going the other way, making excuses for Czisny and rationalizing her thoughts. His bias here is so obvious (and painful, cringeworthy, etc.). And I usually have defended him in the past!

ETA: I, too, wish Czisny a full recovery- don't confuse this post or my position with a lack of sympathy for her injury- but at the same time, it is what it is, and questions must be asked.

I think the USFSA needs to give itself more options in the future to change up the World team given what has happened the past two years because it cannot rely solely on the athlete's decision whether or not to compete.

Click to expand...

you are absolutely right Daisy. Right on the mark.

R.D. said:

...you seriously think team Czisny didn't at least know SOMETHING wasn't right? Even if they weren't aware of a specific injury, per se...

Like with Flatt, they knew she was a shell of her former self performance-wise, yet she still went. Not like Zawadzki would have been that much of an upgrade over an injured Czisny (WADR), but still, it's the thought that matters. Not to mention continuing to compete and taking multiple falls like that could put her at further risk.

By "double standard" I'm referring to those posters who were quick to pounce on Flatt for skating injured at Worlds, but somehow are willing to give Czisny a pass, rationalizing her statements, etc. (you know who you are) All this shows is that said posters either a) hate Flatt, b) love Czisny or c) both. Other posters like MM have been consistent in supporting both Flatt and Czisny, so they're not the ones I'm referring to. I got on team Flatt's case last year and this year I'm on team Czisny's case. I seem to have angered a lot more people this year than last year even though I'm essentially saying the same thing

Click to expand...

I think what you mean by double standard and what I mean are slightly different with a few issue got mixed up. Apologies if read your comment wrongly. You refer to the general posters, I am referring to the federations.

I was never the one to pounce on Flatt, never thought it is right to bash anyone, and certainly any hard working skater (unless they blatantly and repeatedly get over marked in which case I am game ), but I do understand why she had been penalized by her federation for knowing or selfishly taking unnecessary risk with her injuries so she can compete for the glory. The injury became a liability only because she failed her 'consistency'. The weird thing is, had she perform better (consistent), the federation probably wouldn't have cared, and she'd be a hero already who brave her injuries and medalled. Whenever there're bad result, someone seems always having to take the fall and get blamed in an organisation, that is why i am not a big fan of so much federation control over their athlete's destination and feel like they need to punish them for whatever reason. In an ideal world, I don't think anyone should be punished by taking risks to compete, especially if they earned their place outright to compete already. It is their spot, they should be able to decide what they want to do with it. It is their body at risks, they will deal with it as best as they can, it is their right. It is in the case in every other sport, why is figure skating different?

With Alissa it is different. The whole point is there's no way of knowing for sure. Yes she completely flopped, but the break down in communication if any must have started earlier with the 4CC, so if there were some communication problem it would be on both sides. At the same time as supported by medical facts, she did not experience pain till much later, so what should one do in her situation preparing the biggest competition of the season? Give up her spot based on an unsubstantiated hunch? Focus on preparation and get their head game skill game right or stress out over 'nothing' and get an MRI for no reason? MRI cost a lot of money, I am not sure the rate in US but I expect something like $400 upwards just for the scan + medical consultation likely around $200 an hour, so it is hardly realistic in her situation. Who's going to pay? What is the point? One does not get an MRI based on hunch unless is recommended by medical doctor based on symptoms. "Doctor, I can't land my jumps can I get an MRI?" is hardly a likely scenario.

A weird trend I've observed for the US skaters is they are held up to impossible high standards and expectations more than any other nationality. I know everyone love a winner, but not everyone can win. All US leading ladies who did not bring back a medal or failed expectations always get some sort of bash instead of consolation, far more than the men, and if there's some weakness or reason for doubt much later, they ends up being targeted for criticism. While everyone love a winner, but seriously... give the skaters a break, they are just human. Don't only love them when they perform, but also love them and stand by them when they didn't perform and there are reasons for it which they are trying to fix it. People have been far too spoilt with Michelle Kwan who sets an impossible high standards for anyone else to follow since. (Or generally sport boards just attract a lot of bitchy comments for the heck of it.)

----------

Edit/ Looks like I was wrong about price of MRI, I based UK rate, but I guess we get some NHS subsidy. MRI apparently cost anything between $550 - $3000. Gosh...

http://answers.ask.com/Health/Medicine/how_much_does_an_mri_cost