Brilliance and perfection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWm8BHvQIFE&feature=g-all-u

Age 15. It seems like the truly amazing skaters have it very young. 15-16 in Ladies, anyway. She is exquisite. How I wish she had been a consistent jumper. And smiled. I guess she was doing so much so perfectly, concentration was needed. I think of Tara at 15, Oksana Baiul, Sarah Hughes, of course Michelle. Carolina was awesome at 16. Mao Asada. Yuna Kim. Greatness at an early age, even peaking.

What male skaters had this brilliance at such an early age? Are there any men who seemed fully there like a Sasha or a Mao at 16? It makes me want to see what the Brians looked like at this age, or Yagudin. Was there brilliance that obvious in Daisuke, Patrick?

Any links, thoughts about why men mature so much later than the ladies? Or is that fact at all?

Oh, gorgeous, skateluvr.

I remember when she showed up in seniors that year. She was a mature skater right off the bat, never looking coltish or juniorish. Though she wasn't perfect, she surely came close. What placement and what posture! I always loved her back. Her flexibility didn't look like contortion but was always graceful and purposeful and worked with the music. Of her jumps, I was especially fond of her double axel. We were lucky to have her.

I think that girls mature more quickly in many sports--something to do with the strength-to-weight ratio, but I'll leave that to the experts. The thing is that some girls then fade quickly, but the best ones keep strengthening and adding to what they can do, like Michelle, Sasha, Dorothy Hamill, and Shizuka. Alissa too, though her name is mud at the moment. Barring her head case problems and the injury this year, she was twice the skater at 24 or so that she had been at fifteen. Of the men, a few seem to get it right at an early age, Plushenko being a notable example. I think Joubert was about 16 when he won his first Grand Prix events. Patrick seems to have flowered at an early age. From what deedee1 has been transcribing us about Takahashi on his thread, I think he had a large helping of "it" really early. As I recall Yagudin was pretty young in his first Olympics, in 1998, where only the flu kept him down in fifth place. Let me do the math on Kurt. *checks on Wiki* No, his big achievements came in his early twenties.

Gymnastics is like that, too. Someone once asked Kurt Thomas, one of America's greatest gymnasts (his Olympic year would have been 1980, but alas, the U.S. boycotted that year) whether he ever dated any girl gymnasts, and he said something like "Are you kidding? They're all thirteen."

Again, for me the more interesting performers are the ones who keep going, because they develop interpretive powers and a substantial way of flowing across the ice. But a few, such as Michelle, Sasha, and Mao, moved me at any and all ages.

skateluvr said:

What male skaters had this brilliance at such an early age? Are there any men who seemed fully there like a Sasah or a Mao at 16? It makes me want to see whay the Brians looked like at this age, or Yagudin. Was there brilliance that obvious in Daisuke, Patrick?

Any links, thoughts about why men mature so much later than the ladies? Or is that fact at all?

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LOL, Yagudin was pretty terrible in terms of presentation and artistry when he was younger. Basically, a refrigerator on skates. He could jump very well, but that was about it.

Anyway, don't ladies seem to 'mature' earlier because a girl's peak jumping body is for many a pre-pubescent one, before they gain weight on their hips, their centres of gravity change, and rotating/jumping becomes rather more difficult? E.g. Caroline Zhang before her growth spurt. Whereas men generally gain the full extent of their strength and power in their late teens/early twenties, which definitely helps when it comes to landing big jumps like quads.

Plushenko is probably the closest example to a Sasha or Mao at 16. At 15, Plushenko won a world bronze medal and a European silver. By 16, he was Russian champion, won a couple GPs, won a world silver, and another European silver. Medals aside, Plushenko was a great jumper at that age as well and was quite charismatic on the ice even then.

Plush (16 y.o)!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1vHflKsyU0

Patrick was unbelievable as a 16 y.o. I agree with Scott on this one, it's pretty hard to believe he was that young in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y6nAGfFgV4

ciocio said:

Plush (16 y.o)!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1vHflKsyU0

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Baby Plush. I never saw this-he is a born peformer and major ham. It was adorable. Plush before the mullett!

periperi said:

Patrick was unbelievable as a 16 y.o. I agree with Scott on this one, it's pretty hard to believe he was that young in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y6nAGfFgV4

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Wow, he was good. Much more polish now esp in his exhibitions.

skateluvr said:

Age 15. It seems like the truly amazing skaters have it very young. 15-16 in Ladies, anyway. She is exquisite. How I wish she had been a consistent jumper. And smiled. I guess she was doing so much so perfectly, concentration was needed. I Think of tara at 15, Oksana Baiul, Sarah Hughes, of course Michelle. Carolina was awesome at 16. Mao Asada. Yuna Kim. Greatness at an early age, even peaking.

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Not necessarily - some skaters are late bloomers. But let's take a look at a skater who really was special at age 15 (not that long ago...): Yuzuru Hanyu.

2010 Junior Worlds LP - Hanyu was very impressive in his final junior season, consistently beating skaters 3-4 years older than him; he was one of the younger skaters at 2010 JW and the youngest man at the 2009-10 JGPF.

2010 NHK Trophy SP

He was a 4CC medalist at age 16 and now a world medalist at age 17. I think he's pretty amazing

Here is a promising young pairs team, age 17 and 19. :yes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62iI8SbLm-I

Oh, wow, Kristi and Rudy! Now, there are two skaters who were amazing young and amazing older as well. Add to that amazing as a pair and amazing as singles. One thing that stands out here is Rudy's strength at such an early age. He was never very tall or very burly, and Kristi, though small, was nearly his size. Yet look at the ease and power of his lifts.

Hanyu is a wonderful example of a male prodigy. Plushy might take the cake, though. Fifteen and a world medalist? Awesome. And now he's an "old" prodigy. His performance in the 2010 Olympics was one for the history books. It wasn't a CoP-friendly program, but it was certainly spectacular in terms of content. What a span of top-of-the-line skating!

Weir was not yet 20 when he won his first nats. Similarly, Lysacek was still 19 when he won his first world medal. By contrast the other top skater on that generation (Abbott) was a comparatively late bloomer.

In another sport, diving, many young men (especially the Chinese) have been good early on. Greg Louganis was also an early young star, winning Olympic silver at 16 in 1976.

Yes, I remember that awful accident Louganis had, and wasn't he the first big Oly star to come out? Johnny is amazing because he did not start til 10 years old. When I first saw him, I loved the beauty, and he was afraid but it was about the skating then and not his "celebrity."

If Johnny started at 5, he might have been a skater people mention in the same breathe as Plush or young Patrick. Patrick has improved his edges and speed so much in 5 years but that SA comp shows what a natural skater he is. He was born to do this. While I am not happy with the overscoring he receives and CoP scoring of jumps at present, Patrick can really mesmerize the way Dai can when he does an exhibition piece. I don't know who choreographed "Elegy" but it showcases how elegant Patrick is when a performance is about the artistic impression first and foremost. It is difficult to grasp CoP as it does improve some aspects of skating while detracting from others. But "Elegy" is the best thing he has done, for me anyway. It's gorgeous pure skating.

Let's not forget Scott Allen and Gary Visconti. Long overshadowed by contemporary Peggy Fleming, they were also key contributors to the rebirth of the US program. Scott remains the youngest individual and youngest male Olympic medalist, winning bronze at 14 two days short of turning 15. He won world silver the next year and was in the top five at worlds most of his career. He also son 2 national titles. His rival Visconti also won two nationals along with two world bronzes. Their zuccess helped to set up Tim Wood who won olympic silver and two world titles.

Also, Toller was something of a young phenom in Canada.

Olympia said:

One thing that stands out here is Rudy's strength at such an early age. He was never very tall or very burly, and Kristi, though small, was nearly his size. Yet look at the ease and power of his lifts.

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The main impression I got from that performance was a "standing strong to protect my little sister" vibe from Rudy. I think this is part of the appeal of Shibutani and Shibutani as well.

skateluvr said:

What male skaters had this brilliance at such an early age? Are there any men who seemed fully there like a Sasha or a Mao at 16? It makes me want to see what the Brians looked like at this age, or Yagudin. Was there brilliance that obvious in Daisuke, Patrick?

Any links, thoughts about why men mature so much later than the ladies? Or is that fact at all?

Click to expand...

not 15 or 16, but Daisuke at age 17:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcAr91dhaD4

Starting at 1:06, we can already see young Dai with tempting look on his toe steps backward going into circular step sequence.

deedee1 said:

not 15 or 16, but Daisuke at age 17:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcAr91dhaD4

Starting at 1:06, we can already see young Dai with tempting look on his toe steps backward going into circular step sequence.

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing that. He always looked amazing.

I never thought that Sasha was ready for prime time in 2000. I saw a very talented skater who need a LOT of work to be competitive. She was very juniorish - with very weak edges. She had great flexibility, beautiful posture and everything above the knees was nice, but below the knees, a mess.

Quite frankly, Sarah was a much, much better skater at this point than Sasha. Above the knees, Sarah had poor posture and not the best positions, but below the knees, she was wonderful (except for the flutz).

My preference is always for skaters with good feet. Everything else can be fixed later but if you don't have good feet, you're in trouble.

Sasha was tiny but there was nothing juniorish about her. And a girl who pointed her toes when doing triples. She had great edges. One could not do the spirals, the charlotte spiral or her I spins without great control. I don't get it. And that turn she does holding one foot up has never been done well by anyone but her. I never heard once a commentator saying she had "weak edges" or your comments. I'm ?:think:

If you look closely at Sasha's spirals, they were on very, very shallow edges. The positions were great, but the edges were not. Her charlotte was often just on a flat. She also constantly lost control of her edges, which I think is half the reason why she fell so much, she just could not hold landing edges for her life and many of her landings were shaky. Of course, the American commentators will not say anything is wrong with her, but I was reading someone's blog who attended and analyzed every US National and Worlds in the US from like 1990-2006ish and they always commented on how Sasha's spiral was gorgeous but on almost a flat edge.

I had never seen that program from plushy! I don't normally like him but that was cute...and he looks much better without the mullet. I would live to see him do that program now..though I suspect there would be a whole lot more butt shaking and random arm flailing!!