Russian coach: The US will help us win team gold and pairs | Page 7 | Golden Skate

Russian coach: The US will help us win team gold and pairs

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
wallylutz, I think the snarky point is that V&M actually won at 4CC's 2012 with Judy Blumberg on the panel, so clearly she didn't have any bad effect on their results, particularly as it was D&W at that event that had a spin and their twizzle down leveled in the FD by the tech panel. If Judy were somehow able to fix results on a tech panel, you'd think she would have done something about that.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2012/SEG007OF.HTM


At the risk of opening a bigger can of worms, here goes nothing. If you click on the link you provided, you will notice two things. 1) Judy Blumberg wasn't the tech caller and there were 3 people on the tech panel. 2) The tech caller of the event was a Canadian, not Blumberg. :eek: Horror, I know. So the downgrades called for D/W in that event wouldn't have come from Blumberg in the first place, it was Zukiwsky's call. Even if the downgrades went into a review process, there was still the controller who was British. We simply didn't know how they interacted so we can only state the facts and the fact is Blumberg was not the tech caller, rather it was someone else who happened to be a Canadian.


There is a lot of conflating of conspiracy theories about past dance results with the reported conspiracy for 2014 Sochi Olympics going on in this thread. The L'equipe article makes no mention of either Shawn Rettstatt or Judy Blumberg, and Judy is not on the Sochi panel in any case, and efforts to accuse either of cheating is pretty low, but especially Judy, since she isn't even here.

For the record, I am not accusing anyone is Sochi, want to make that clear.

News flash: In any event, looking at any team's results, one judge will have that team lower than other judges. That's how arithmetic works. (Also 50% of doctors graduated in the bottom of their class.) Furthermore, since we have no way to tell which judge is low in any case, and cannot trace the judge's grades down through the protocols to know whether the low judge was low for every skater or was suspiciously high for Russia, or France, or Italy, or the USA, the smearing of Rettstatt as the low grading judge at the GPF is also unfounded.

I don't know but Matt K made a case here : http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...and-Prix-Final&p=802789&viewfull=1#post802789

People can read for themselves and draw their own conclusion, I am going to refrain from commenting on the merit of this case.


That said, the ISU should investigate these charges, although it will be hard to do if the anonymous coach does not come forward and explain how he knows these things. My guess is that it is Morozov (I&K's coach), and given my opinion of Morozov, I might have a problem believing him. He would be the guy who might have a grudge at the Russian fed, since B&S are Russia's number one, and not his students I&K.

The other possibility would be Zhulin, B&S's coach, and it doesn't seem like his style, nor would it be to his advantage to trash the Russian fed.

But really, why would the federation officials notify any coaches of the cheating and/or politicking they plan to do? That is what puzzles me.

I tend to agree with you here that the source may well be Morozov but let me state again this is only speculation. As for the last part of your question, I can tell you in my own experience from both skating and corporate world that leaks happen more often than people realize. In many instance, they are supposed to be well guarded secrets but people talk and sometimes, it's quite easy to overhear something in a large organization. Surprisingly, some of the people with the most inside information are low ranking clerks, attendants or secretaries. The big shots tend to ignore these people as background noises and these people act subservient anyway. If you are smart, and want to know some secrets, you befriend those secretaries or receptionists or attendants since they also handle the agenda, calendar or appointments of the big shots so they filter through a lot of information. And they aren't dumb, what they can't hear, they deduce and when you put 1 + 1 together, they figure out a lot of things on their own. And why these people talk? Well, very often they are treated like crap by the big shots or as though they are servants. So they often have a beef against those big shots and they tend to be older women. Women in an office = chat box. A womanizer and naturally seductive guy like Morozov, boy, if he wants to know something, I bet he got his own inside sources in a lot of places. What better way to further his own agenda with a calculated leak?
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
As a Canadian fan, I'm very happy Canadian media write a article about that. This way all ice dance judges in the panel will be under pressure to give Virtue/Moir higher marks. I'm very happy we will have another gold. Thank you nameless russian coach. :laugh:

L'equipe owned by Éditions Philippe Amaury who are largest promoters of sports events in France, including the Tour de France and Paris–Roubaix bicycle races, says wikipedia. They could have insider information easily. Of course biggest and most truthful newspaper in the world can't make mistakes so I'm believing this story with my whole heart. Canada for team gold.:party2:

As I said those newspaper could have insider information easily for Lance. But for figure skating and from a russian coach :rolleye:
 

hyperinflation

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
As a Canadian fan, I'm very happy Canadian media write a article about that. This way all ice dance judges in the panel will be under pressure to give Virtue/Moir higher marks. I'm very happy we will have another gold. Thank you nameless russian coach. :laugh:



As I said those newspaper could have insider information easily for Lance. But for figure skating and from a russian coach :rolleye:

are you being purposefully obtuse or do you not understand how journalism works..? a newspaper of this repute would not make something up out of thin air. the russian coach could very well be lying or be seriously misinformed, but dismissing it as certain lies is just dumb on your part
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
are you being purposefully obtuse or do you not understand how journalism works..? a newspaper of this repute would not make something up out of thin air. the russian coach could very well be lying or be seriously misinformed, but dismissing it as certain lies is just dumb on your part

I'm so sorry. I'm not familiar to Canadian or French media, so saying things from a no one is strange for me. But I can love them with my whole heart, they are going to give a gold medal to us, Canada after all. :love:
 

hyperinflation

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
I'm so sorry. I'm not familiar to Canadian or French media, so saying things from a no one is strange for me. But I can love them with my whole heart, they are going to give a gold medal to us, Canada after all. :love:

you don't have to be familiar with the canadian or french media, you just have to have even the vaguest grasp of journalism and the fact that a newspaper like this will not make a source up out of thin air

how reliable that source is another story entirely
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
you don't have to be familiar with the canadian or french media, you just have to have even the vaguest grasp of journalism and the fact that a newspaper like this will not make a source up out of thin air

how reliable that source is another story entirely

so basically anything the french or canadian media and tabloids say is true ?
even with an non reliable and anonymous so called source
 

Near

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Country
Canada
As a Canadian fan, I'm very happy Canadian media write a article about that. This way all ice dance judges in the panel will be under pressure to give Virtue/Moir higher marks. I'm very happy we will have another gold. Thank you nameless russian coach. :laugh:



As I said those newspaper could have insider information easily for Lance. But for figure skating and from a russian coach :rolleye:

Do you not know the difference between Canada and France? Like, seriously...

so basically anything the french or canadian media and tabloids say is true ?
even with an non reliable and anonymous so called source

Obviously not. But L'equipe is a reliable paper. I don't doubt that a Russian coach actually told them what they reported because they have a history of getting those right (again, they where the first paper to report Lance Armstrong was doping, years before he got stripped from his TdF wins). Of course, one Russian coach saying there is vote trading going on doesn't mean there is vote trading going on, it could very well be one individual settling a grudge. But it remains a credible report.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
At the risk of opening a bigger can of worms, here goes nothing. If you click on the link you provided, you will notice two things. 1) Judy Blumberg wasn't the tech caller and there were 3 people on the tech panel. 2) The tech caller of the event was a Canadian, not Blumberg. :eek: Horror, I know. So the downgrades called for D/W in that event wouldn't have come from Blumberg in the first place, it was Zukiwsky's call. Even if the downgrades went into a review process, there was still the controller who was British. We simply didn't know how they interacted so we can only state the facts and the fact is Blumberg was not the tech caller,

Correct.
You have made a fine case for why all the hyper worrying about Blumberg is unfounded.

In fact, Judy has mostly been an assistant tech specialist. Even if she were the caller, she couldn't do very much harm without getting someone to collude with her if she flagged something wrongly, on review. There are 3, perhaps 4, events I recall where I had concerns about the tech panel. In all cases, they involved selective blindness to errors, rather than flagging of errors that weren't there, since a team can appeal a bad call on themselves, but can't appeal other team's grades. The most egregious was a GPF some years back when the panel gave level 4 to almost every element for all teams.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Well…we are paying the long anticipated price for anonymous judging. Since the scores of judges are not subject to public scrutiny, we are reduced to flailing around in the dark, prey to whatever rumors anyone wants to start.
 

caitie

Medalist
Joined
Sep 14, 2013
This whole thing is a bummer, and I'm sorry Meryl and Charlie were apparently asked about it in the mix (or whatever it's called) after their practice. Hopefully it's not true.

Well…we are paying the long anticipated price for anonymous judging. Since the scores of judges are not subject to public scrutiny, we are reduced to flailing around in the dark, prey to whatever rumors anyone wants to start.

I guess originally they thought since federations wouldn't be able to tell which judge was which, it would discourage the deal-making? LOL, maybe that's how Russia was able to make deals with Italy and France too, despite having two Russian teams vying for the bronze. That's the most suspicious thing about this article, it sort of sounds like it must be a coach of one of the Russian Ice Dance teams who is disgruntled with the federation for not supporting them enough or something.

Anyway, the USFSA announced several weeks ago that they will propose to end anonymous judging at the ISU committee/summit thing coming up, and I hope the other federations will be amenable.
 

hyperinflation

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
This whole thing is a bummer, and I'm sorry Meryl and Charlie were apparently asked about it in the mix (or whatever it's called) after their practice.

there better be a video or charlie talking about 'semantics' again
 

sowcow

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
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CONSIDER ... what if this is all a fabricated rouse designed to distract, add pressure, or agitate certain audiences (which it clearly has, as evidenced by the reactions in this thread and in other national media)!



Allégations sans évidence

Shame on L'Equipe! They knew the Olympic-size controversy (pun intended) this would stir up!

Given the high repute of L'Equipe, I don't doubt the interview took place. Nonetheless the L'Equipe editors have demonstrated a serious lack of judgement in their 'rush to print' these anonymous, unsubstantiated allegations. The lack of any corroborating evidence is especially troublesome given Péchalat & Bourzat (FRA) are one of the top ice dance teams vying for a medal (...a team which despite previous World bronze medal placings, is now considered somewhat of a 'long shot' to make the podium at Sochi).

Let's consider this anonymous source. First, it is puzzling why a Russian coach would be privy to the private (and assumingly secret) vote-swapping conversations and bargaining between judges. Was this coach informed directly by one of the judges/officials involved in the conspiracy? Or is his/her evidence based on rumour & hearsay?

I tend to be skeptical of anonymous sources who report stuff to newspapers that they should be reporting to the authorities. And why on earth would a Russian coach be told by the Russian, Italian, or French Fed that this was going down?

But really, why would the federation officials notify any coaches of the cheating and/or politicking they plan to do? That is what puzzles me.

Secondly, what motive would a Russian coach have for exposing a Russian-based conspiracy?

[It remains a] question as to why a Russian official would out a scheme in which they're a part of, and if it were true, could get them in trouble as well; ... [and] why the "whistle blower" would be part of the scheme, and why this person would want to tell the press that they're cheating to get a team gold.

Perhaps, as some suggest, it is simply a matter of a coach with a grudge against their Federation:

My guess is that it is Morozov (I&K's coach), and given my opinion of Morozov, I might have a problem believing him. He would be the guy who might have a grudge at the Russian fed, since B&S are Russia's number one, and not his students I&K.

The other possibility would be Zhulin, B&S's coach, and it doesn't seem like his style, nor would it be to his advantage to trash the Russian fed.

We simply don't know! In fact, without knowing 'how' or 'who' informed this Russian coach of the alleged vote swapping scheme, a much broader set of players & motives should also be considered, for example:

a) If you believe the motive is to influence results at these Olympics, then which country has the most to gain from planting/publicizing such an agitative story? Since it's NOT entirely clear which team(s) will benefit from this controversy, it's therefore conceivable it could have been planted by any of the medal contenders (the Russians, French, Americans or even a Canadian)! None can truly be ruled out without more information. Or...

b) Perhaps the motive is more structural - a means to an end - and is designed to 'force' more changes to the current judging system? The 2002 Olympics judging scandal served as impetus to overhaul the system a decade ago -- it worked then, why not try it again?


The bottom line - I think pressure needs to be brought to bear on L'Equipe to either identify their source, OR substantiate the claims with additional evidence, OR else retract the story with a full apology! Alas, even if the allegations turn out to be complete fabrication, the damage caused to the sport will reverberate for years to come.
 

Ice Dance

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Sigh. There are a lot of political reasons to float a rumor, and they often aren't the ones that immediately come to mind. The following examples are just theoretical.

For example, say you are Evgeny Plushenko & claim to "brag" that you will skate for the team & then quit. Could this possibly make it harder for the Russian Federation to drop you & thereby help you actually get into the entire event?

Or say you are B&K and lose early in the season to the Lithuanians. If your coach complains that you are being "set-up" to lose to the Russian team ranked above the Lithuanians, could you suddenly make everyone forget that you are actually ranked lower than the team below the Russians?

I'm NOT saying that either of these interpretations are true. Just that rumors serve more than one purpose. There are LOTS of ways to view a leak to a paper, and reporters have no reason to look beyond the sensationalism for other motives.

IMO, there is no clear evidence that a clean performance by V&M can defeat a slightly flawed one by D&W this season. Is it possible? Oh, yes, and I think D&W KNOW they need to skate totally solid to control their own destiny. But why is it that in all the other disciplines we understand that it is entirely feasible for Patrick or Yuna or V&T to possibly win with a mistake, while the very idea of it happening in dance (where D&W have been on top all year with quite a decent margin) is considered evidence of political maneuvering? It's quite possible that the actual purpose of this "leak" is meant to place V&M and D&W on a more equal playing field in the audience's eyes than the results have shown all season.
 

Mia_

Rinkside
Joined
May 15, 2010
IMO, there is no clear evidence that a clean performance by V&M can defeat a slightly flawed one by D&W this season.

Actually, it did happen at this season's GPF SD. D/W made an error on the twizzles, and some judges still gave them +3 GOE and +2s.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
U.S. Figure Skating denies French report of collusion between U.S. and Russian judges

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olymp...en-american-and-russian-judges-154539960.html

A report from French sports magazine L'Equipe alleged on Saturday that judges from the United States and Russia would conspire to help each other out during the Sochi Games. According to the magazine's unidentified Russian source, American judges would help Russians win the gold in the pairs and team event. In return, Russian judges would help Americans Meryl Davis and Charlie White win the ice dancing event.

U.S. Figure Skating officials quickly moved to squelch the rumor.

"Comments made in a L’Equipe story are categorically false," U.S. Figure Skating said in a statement via the Chicago Tribune. "There is no 'help’ between countries. We have no further response to rumors, anonymous sources or conjecture."
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
There are some of us strong fans of the sport of ice dance that have been frustrated by the results in ice dance over the last couple of years. Something has been off. Was it laziness on the part of judges to not study up more on what the technical manual says actually should be judged in PCS and GOE? Or is it unwillingness to step beyond 6.0 to COP? How could the things so many of us know and admire about the sport of ice dance not be rewarded, even though the technical manual is quite clear? How can so many outstanding coaches and dancers from the past and present hold very similar opinions, but this is not reflected in the results? It's not like this has happened once or twice, but consistently.

I don't want to believe the rumours, but part of me really sort of does. It's like there was a narrative that started when it became clear how injured Tessa was, and she had a couple of surgeries. "They aren't as good. They are a shadow of what they were. They peaked in Vancouver. D/W are fast, V/M are slow." On and on. There were even some quotes I remember earlier this year from a Chinese judge who was basically downplaying V/M and their abilities. I'd call it a subtle but targeted agenda that became the narrative. If you say it enough times, it must be true. But all of that ignored what was really going on. Yes, Tessa was injured. But she came back stronger and healthier than she ever was before. She relearned her technique so that she could protect herself. And each year V/M have pushed themselves with new and innovative programs - different genres, different elements, and increasingly complex and difficult choreography. And they've done it with class, with style, and incredible quality. They've earned accolades from their fellow competitors, coaches, off ice dancers....the list is long. Even the inventors of this year's dance have said that V/M perfectly capture the essence and intent of the dance. But the scores haven't reflected it.

The article by Beverly Smith pretty much summarizes what many have been talking about for a couple of years. It's LONG overdue. Look at today's results. The base technical value of V/M and D/W was exactly the same today. While V/M messed up twizzles, D/W messed up a level on the Pattern Dance. They both had level 3's on the step sequence. The difference between these 2 teams today was not the technical elements, but the GOE and PCS. Now look at the skates again. Did D/W deserve to out-GOE V/M on so many of the elements? Not a chance. And on the PCS? Not a chance! The closeness with which V/M skate, the depth of edges, the incredible lines, the balance of work between both partners, the innovation in the transitions, the way they use their entire bodies, the speed generated from their technique, .... Sorry, but in my opinion D/W should not be finishing ahead of V/M in PCS. D/W deserved better GOE in the twizzles, but not the rest. Look at the technical manual, and V/M exceed the criteria for PCS and GOE across the board. But that's not what happened today. The PCS and GOE scores are backwards, and therefore the results are backwards.

And while we're at it, the scores for the Russians were also ridiculous. Within 2 points of V/M? Not really. And the basic skating skills of P/B are much superior than B/S. P/B had a more open program, but they have much better posture, better technique, and deserved better on that second mark and GOE. Looking at the totals after today, Russia has 46 points and Canada has 41. In reality, with a different result in dance and pairs free, according to what was actually skated, it should be Russia 44 and Canada 43 (not dropping B/S behind P/B). I have no issues with how mens short, pairs short, and ladies short finished. I don't think the dance short or the pairs free was right. So thinking conspiracy, if the results were what they should be, Canada has the ability to gain points in dance and mens free, and Russia can win ladies. It would be close, and Canada could win the team medal. So looking at the results, some inflation here and there, and one can see that there might be "a fire behind the smoke" in these rumours.

I hope the ISU is embarrassed by the international media attention enough to step in before tomorrow preferably, but certainly before the individual events. I hope all the tech specialists and judges for the individual events are locked in a room for a few hours to review the criteria, and be sternly admonished about expectations and their responsibilities to keep the judging clean and according to the rules. Then I hope that the ISU decides to make the judges names known to everyone for this event, and if there is any hint of issues, that they are individually held accountable for their decisions. Nothing like shining a light on dark places to keep folks more honest. And there's nothing wrong with being diligent about anti-doping testing. But to choose 1 country team athletes for "random" testing at a significantly higher rate than anyone else, and closely before competition? I say test every single athlete then to make it fair. And 2 hours before competition. Yes, the ISU has some investigation/clean up to do.

And for V/M, I hope they can live in their bubble and skate for themselves, as they planned. They are already Olympic Champions. This situation in Sochi notwithstanding, 10 years and 20 years from now, they will be remembered as the defining team of this generation, along with the greats in the sport. The quality of what they've done, their incredible body of work, and the way in which they pushed themselves and the sport will be long remembered and respected. It's been an incredible 17 years, and for this competition, they deserve to skate for themselves. And I look forward to what they might do in the show circuit hopefully for a few more years to come.
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
And while we're at it, the scores for the Russians were also ridiculous. Within 2 points of V/M? Not really. And the basic skating skills of P/B are much superior than B/S. P/B had a more open program, but they have much better posture, better technique, and deserved better on that second mark and GOE. Looking at the totals after today, Russia has 46 points and Canada has 41. In reality, with a different result in dance and pairs free, according to what was actually skated, it should be Russia 44 and Canada 43 (not dropping B/S behind P/B). I have no issues with how mens short, pairs short, and ladies short finished. I don't think the dance short or the pairs free was right. So thinking conspiracy, if the results were what they should be, Canada has the ability to gain points in dance and mens free, and Russia can win ladies. It would be close, and Canada could win the team medal. So looking at the results, some inflation here and there, and one can see that there might be "a fire behind the smoke" in these rumours.

typical bitter Canadian :rolleye:

like I said before making such non sense comments
go watch first MT/M if you even think they deserve to be first in the LP, what a joke :laugh:
P/B had a new SD so judges gave them lower PCS, B/S were good enough to be ahead of them

cry me a river :cry:
Canada will be robbed of Team Gold , Mens and Ice Dance
Osmond deserves individual silver !
D/R ar ethe New Sale Palettier

quit whining
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
I hope the ISU is embarrassed by the international media attention enough to step in before tomorrow preferably, but certainly before the individual events. I hope all the tech specialists and judges for the individual events are locked in a room for a few hours to review the criteria, and be sternly admonished about expectations and their responsibilities to keep the judging clean and according to the rules. Then I hope that the ISU decides to make the judges names known to everyone for this event, and if there is any hint of issues, that they are individually held accountable for their decisions. Nothing like shining a light on dark places to keep folks more honest. And there's nothing wrong with being diligent about anti-doping testing. But to choose 1 country team athletes for "random" testing at a significantly higher rate than anyone else, and closely before competition? I say test every single athlete then to make it fair. And 2 hours before competition. Yes, the ISU has some investigation/clean up to do.

And for V/M, I hope they can live in their bubble and skate for themselves, as they planned. They are already Olympic Champions. This situation in Sochi notwithstanding, 10 years and 20 years from now, they will be remembered as the defining team of this generation, along with the greats in the sport. The quality of what they've done, their incredible body of work, and the way in which they pushed themselves and the sport will be long remembered and respected. It's been an incredible 17 years, and for this competition, they deserve to skate for themselves. And I look forward to what they might do in the show circuit hopefully for a few more years to come.

other teams skate for themselves are as worthy too
you make it sound like V/M are the greatest dancers of the generation which is totally untrue
 

caitie

Medalist
Joined
Sep 14, 2013
Sorry, but in my opinion D/W should not be finishing ahead of V/M in PCS. D/W deserved better GOE in the twizzles, but not the rest. Look at the technical manual, and V/M exceed the criteria for PCS and GOE across the board. But that's not what happened today. The PCS and GOE scores are backwards, and therefore the results are backwards. Even the inventors of this year's dance have said that V/M perfectly capture the essence and intent of the dance. But the scores haven't reflected it.

Well, since we're putting so much stock in what the inventors of the Finnstep think, here's what one of them tweeted tonight after watching them back to back (not just after watching V/M compete at Finlandia):

@coccco: Davis & White were the only ones who looked in the #finnstep the same as it felt to do. Congrats, well deserved score! #Sochi2014 #sotshi
 
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