2014 Olympics Ladies Short Program

Blades of Passion · Feb 19, 2014

pangtongfan said:
Wagner should have just done a 3F+2T... she scored only 4.9 points for her combo when she could have scored at least 7 points for the 3-2. Darn CoP

I am not getting this. Why should a poorly done 3-3 that was missed score higher than a clean 3-2.

It shouldn't score higher, but it should score the same as a completely average 3-2 (0 GOE). The mandatory -GOE for << calls is an inaccurate representation of what was put out on the ice. The jump didn't look bad, she essentially landed "clean", it was just forwards.

pohatta · Feb 19, 2014

Panini said:
Off-topic but can anyone explain to me why Miki Ando trained the 4S but not 4T? Looking at the men's competition, it's obvious that 4T is the easier jump.

For many men 4S is easier than 4T. Brezina, Fernandez, Amodio...

demarinis5 · Feb 19, 2014

I just got in from work and am about to watch the competition. Of course I am spoiled as I was checking the results during
the competition. Shocked about Mao and Kanako. Thrilled about Caro.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 19, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
It shouldn't score higher, but it should score the same as a completely average 3-2 (0 GOE). The mandatory -GOE for << calls is an accurate representation of what was put out on the ice. The jump didn't look bad, she essentially landed "clean", it was just forwards.

This is incorrect. 3F+2T = 6.6 points. With even marginal GOE for good execution (she had good speed going in, and the flip was nice in the air), it would have received about 7 points. Even with 0's all across it would have been 1.7 points higher than what she got on her combo, and enough to put her ahead of Lipnitskaia.

Kudos to her for going for it though, although this would have been one of those scenarios where playing it safe would have helped her out.

Ziggy · Feb 19, 2014

Mathman said:
Dr. Rosanno, however, made an error in treating the trimmed mean (9 scores trimmed down to 7) as if it were a sample of size seven, instead of a sample of size nine. This is incorrect. The rwo methods (all nine versus trimmed mean) have the same aount of accuracy except in the case of extreme asymmetry in the distribution of judges' marks.

Thanks for the insight. You learn something new every day.

I was just mindlessly repeating what I read a long time ago.

I still prefer all marks being included on a philosophical level, personally because the outlier judges aren't necessarily wrong.

pangtongfan said:
I am not getting this. Why should a poorly done 3-3 that was missed score higher than a clean 3-2. Would that be progressive for the sport. This almost goes along the lines of thinking of wanting to reward falls and getting what we did in the mens event here more frequently (even though Wanger didnt fall, it is that line of thinking that took us to that point).

It doesnt discourage risks. It is called a risk for a reason, meaning you are taking a risk of sorts. If you take the risk of trying something hard but dont land it decently, you will probably score lower than trying something safer and doing it very well. As it should be.

I agree, although not on falls. Wagner landed the 3toe forward on two-feet. A clean 3/2 should clearly be worth more, IMO.

I she did a fully rotated 3/3 and fell on the second jump, she would have got 6.1 versus 7.3 for a base value 3/2. That is totally cool to me. 3/3 with a fall gets less points but not much less so the risk is still worth it.

But Wagner didn't do a 3/3. She essentially did a bad 3/2. And it's not like she has ever executed a fully rotated 3/3, yet. Even if she didn't get a call, it was close to 1/4 under. I'd rather skaters not attempt jumps that they aren't capable of executing clean.

Panini · Feb 19, 2014

It could still make a difference. e.g. Let's say all the judges give marks within a narrow spread except Judge A, who has a tendency to give higher marks. Judge B gives marks hovering around the average for everyone but Adelina, to whom he gives super high scores. Judge A's high marks are thrown out for everyone except Adelina, giving her a slight edge over everyone else.

It probably wouldn't make a big difference in the overall scheme of things but every hundredth of a point counts for something.

jenaj said:
Bad scoring is not the same as corrupt scoring. And if those were the highest scores, they would have been thrown out, so someone would have wasted their pay-off money.

Panini · Feb 19, 2014

ks777 said:
3toe was her least favorite jump.

Ah, thanks. Makes sense now. It's a shame. If Miki was good at toe loop, maybe she could've fully mastered a quad.

Ziggy · Feb 19, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
It shouldn't score higher, but it should score the same as a completely average 3-2 (0 GOE). The mandatory -GOE for << calls is an accurate representation of what was put out on the ice. The jump didn't look bad, she essentially landed "clean", it was just forwards.

I depends on how you look at it. I don't think it was a 3/3, and it certainly wasn't a clean 3/2. It was an overrotated 3/2, IMO, so no it shouldn't get the same score as a 3/2 that was actually clean.

And deductions should be based on technical accuracy and not on whether something looks 'bad' or not. It's a sport and not an entertainment show.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 19, 2014

pangtongfan said:
I am not getting this. Why should a poorly done 3-3 that was missed score higher than a clean 3-2.

Oh, I'm all for risks. I was just saying that it wasn't beneficial to her in this case to go for the 3-3, when a 3-2 would have scored way more.

The big diff obviously was it being a << instead of < (1.6 points lost). Otherwise the 3-3 attempt would have been sensible as it'd still be worth 8.2 points, instead of 6.6 with the downgrade (the same BV as the 3-2).

Ziggy · Feb 19, 2014

Panini said:
Ah, thanks. Makes sense now. It's a shame. If Miki was good at toe loop, maybe she could've fully mastered a quad.

I haven't checked so I might be wrong but I think Ando did no triple toe-loops in her programs at the height of her competitive career?

Panini · Feb 19, 2014

pohatta said:
For many men 4S is easier than 4T. Brezina, Fernandez, Amodio...

That is surprising! I wonder if that's due to their technique or their body structure.

Blades of Passion · Feb 19, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
This is incorrect. 3F+2T = 6.6 points.

I think you're confused, but I also typed that wrong. I meant to write "inaccurate".

I do think it's possible that a jump combo with a << jump could deserve +GOE, though. If the jumps are huge and the skater basically lands "clean" but just happens to come down forwards on one of the jumps, the GOE would still be deserved. The huge penalty in base value is enough. In this case with Wagner's combo, though, I would have given 0 GOE.

hikki · Feb 19, 2014

Yuna is just amazing. Love Send in the Clowns, very understated grace. She looked unsure in the warmup but she got the job done. What a strong woman.
The biggest surprise for me today was Carolina! Was that 3toe/3toe? No! She threw in 3flip/3toe and that was beautiful!
Adelina brought it but come on, she was overmarked with consistently generous GOEs relative to Yuna and Caro.
Lkpnitskaya's GOE + PCS is just a big joke. And no edge call on the lutz?
Mao... oh Mao... I hope this takes away all the pressure so she can just skate like she skates in the practices tomorrow and bring everything!! The scores, although harsfh for a big name skater, were fair.

Icey · Feb 19, 2014

bsfan said:
Even if Mao had been age aligible, would she have been too young, unmature like today's Yulia to score high on PCS? I don't see anything better from 2006 Mao to today's Yulia or Adelina.

She won the GPF that year, which didn't leave Irina very happy. In the long, she had a slightly lower PCS than Irina who had around 60+ in the lp. Mao had 59+

Sam-Skwantch · Feb 19, 2014

Sam-Skwantch = devestated (not for me but for Yulia)

I just hope she doesn't think she let anyone down. I felt so bad for her in that kiss and cry. It's not as bad as she thinks but it might seem like the end of the world going by her standards. I hope she pulls thru it and nails her best skate ever. I can't stand to see her devastated like that again.

Yuna and Caro were everything and more than I could have asked for!

I missed Adelina and Mao so I can't comment but I will get no satisfaction from seeing Mao do whatever she did to wind up in 16th. Not at all surprised by Adelina.

"With heavy heart"

Ziggy · Feb 19, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
In this case with Wagner's combo, though, I would have given 0 GOE.

For a jump which was both cheated and double-footed?

Blades of Passion · Feb 19, 2014

Ziggy said:
I depends on how you look at it. I don't think it was a 3/3, and it certainly wasn't a clean 3/2. It was an overrotated 3/2, IMO, so no it shouldn't get the same score as a 3/2 that was actually clean.

And deductions should be based on technical accuracy and not on whether something looks 'bad' or not. It's a sport and not an entertainment show.

People watch sports for entertainment. Part of this sport is judging the presentation. Don't fight it.

As for technical merit, overrotating a double by half a turn is harder than simply doing just a double. There's no reason why people should receive some kind of extra penalty for it. Usually the steadiness of the landing is affected in some way to begin with, so doing a 3Flip+3Toe<<, like Ashley did here, isn't usually going to get +GOE anyway. If you PLAN to do a 3Flip+2Toe and do it very strongly and neat and clean, you can get more +GOE. There's simply no reason to give the << jump an additional -GOE penalty. A 3Flip+2Toe that would receive 0 GOE means it was lackluster jumping pass and lacked quality. There's no reason why a decent 3Flip+3Toe attempt that ends up with the << call should score less.

Ziggy said:
For a jump which was both cheated and double-footed?

In the replay I recall, Ashley didn't double-foot the landing. She simply landed forward and her free foot swung around, low to the ice.

SXTN · Feb 19, 2014

We basically have three first places after the SP. All of the three have the same shot at the Gold Medal now. If Carolina and Adelina bomb, Gracie and Yulia can still reach the podium. It's going to be exciting (much more than the men). No one is safe yet.

When I realized Carolina is going for 3F+3T (about two seconds before

), I was in shock. Glad she could prove she is not only an artistic skater with "average" techical content.

Mrs. P · Feb 19, 2014

Itcaip said:
We basically have three first places after the SP. All of the three have the same shot at the Gold Medal now. If Carolina and Adelina bomb, Gracie and Yulia can still reach the podium. It's going to be exciting (much more than the men). No one is safe yet.

When I realized Carolina is going for 3F+3T (about two seconds before ), I was in shock. Glad she could prove she is not only an artistic skater with "average" techical content.

That was such a gutsy move on her part. Way to prove her detractors wrong.

will74lsn · Feb 19, 2014

Did someone know about Carolina's change in the combo? This was really a huge surprise!

2014 Olympics Ladies Short Program

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

pohatta

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

CanadianSkaterGuy

Ziggy

Panini

Panini

Ziggy

CanadianSkaterGuy

Ziggy

Panini

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

hikki

Icey

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Ziggy

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

SXTN

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

will74lsn

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