How Sotnikova beat Kim - Move by Move

Blades of Passion · Mar 10, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
Apparently it was questionable because no one at NBC noticed it. I know you think Tara is not credible since you called her "fat" but she still has eyes and knows way more than you or me about skating. As do Johnny, Scott and Sandra.

Maybe somewhere I made a remark about her puffy face (a shame that she so clearly had plastic surgery), but I definitely have not ever called her fat.

Tara does not know more than me about skating.

As for if they noticed it or not, (#1) they often don't pay attention to these technical nuances or even know the rules to begin with, (#2) they don't want to create controversy.

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 11, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
Tara does not know more than me about skating.

Really now?

Amer · Mar 11, 2014

The only comment I wish to make is that the photos are super cool.

mskater93 · Mar 11, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
Really now?

I would agree with BoP on this one, and I don't always agree with what he has to say. Tara's contributions to the commentary team are questionable (and often juvenile and trite, but that's for another time/thread) and it's quite clear she doesn't understand IJS. BoP GETS IJS.

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 11, 2014

mskater93 said:
I would agree with BoP on this one, and I don't always agree with what he has to say. Tara's contributions to the commentary team are questionable (and often juvenile and trite, but that's for another time/thread) and it's quite clear she doesn't understand IJS. BoP GETS IJS.

I think there is a difference between understanding something and being able to express it during a live broadcast. Those of us here have a chance to review what we write before we post it, while Tara is asked to commentate live and also speak in a way that is approachable to the fan who watches skating once a year (if that). What specifically has Tara said that is contrary to the IJS?

mskater93 · Mar 11, 2014

Not that she has said anything contrary to IJS, just that she doesn't seem to get how the system works with levels, UR, DG, edge calls, etc in how she presents what she has to say with regards to scoring. I have the same issue with the supposed "A" team on NBC (Scott's catch-all "everything gets points" is just basically slapping the viewer upside the head and saying they're dumb or it's a phrase that basically implies he's too lazy to learn how the system works and put it in an understandable way for the casual viewer.)

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 11, 2014

mskater93 said:
Not that she has said anything contrary to IJS, just that she doesn't seem to get how the system works with levels, UR, DG, edge calls, etc in how she presents what she has to say with regards to scoring.

So you're suggesting Tara doesn't know what UR, DG, and edge calls are based on how she commentates the programs for the American audience?

mskater93 · Mar 11, 2014

It certainly seems as if she doesn't. I also find most of her commentary not really value add.

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 11, 2014

mskater93 said:
I also find most of her commentary not really value add.

I agree with you that she could get more technical, but I am pretty sure it is because she has a duty to make the commentary approachable to a wide audience. Much like Scott explaining that the point difference of a 3Lo cause Yuna to lose to Adelina. While that is technically true, and it is easy for an audience to understand 7 is better than 6, I don't think Scott believes the explanation was that simple but rather it is an easy way for Americans to comprehend the result.

gkelly · Mar 11, 2014

mskater93 said:
(Scott's catch-all "everything gets points" is just basically slapping the viewer upside the head and saying they're dumb or it's a phrase that basically implies he's too lazy to learn how the system works and put it in an understandable way for the casual viewer.)

Hey, Dick Button and even Tracy Wilson used to take that kind of approach 20+ years ago under 6.0, alluding to what the judges were looking for but not actually sharing any details. Button used to do it in a way that implied the judges were just nitpicky bean counters who couldn't appreciate the performance aspects as well as the viewers.

In many ways Button's commentary, at least when it came to the second mark, tended to teach viewers to look at skating more like dance critics and not like sports judges. He did get enthusiastic about good edges, but he didn't always find ways to help viewers learn how to recognize them the same way he taught them to fetishize his favorite layback positions.

So on the one hand that approach set up viewers to believe they knew more than the judges about everything Button bothered to teach them about. On the other hand, it treated viewers as too dumb to learn much about what the skaters were actually being judged on.

mskater93 · Mar 11, 2014

I honestly don't think she can be more technical in her explanation. She never skated under IJS and I don't think she's really taken the time to understand it (neither, imo, has Scott or Sandra). In general, I think NBC's production does a fairly crappy job in explaining how it works to the casual observer. Thank God I understand how IJS works because they don't explain it.

Nadya · Mar 11, 2014

gkelly said:
Hey, Dick Button and even Tracy Wilson used to take that kind of approach 20+ years ago under 6.0, alluding to what the judges were looking for but not actually sharing any details. Button used to do it in a way that implied the judges were just nitpicky bean counters who couldn't appreciate the performance aspects as well as the viewers.

In many ways Button's commentary, at least when it came to the second mark, tended to teach viewers to look at skating more like dance critics and not like sports judges. He did get enthusiastic about good edges, but he didn't always find ways to help viewers learn how to recognize them the same way he taught them to fetishize his favorite layback positions.

So on the one hand that approach set up viewers to believe they knew more than the judges about everything Button bothered to teach them about. On the other hand, it treated viewers as too dumb to learn much about what the skaters were actually being judged on.

I agree with this. In addition, I think Button had a very definite and clear bias towards skaters of a particular kind - lyrical, balletic and hyper-flexible. It is fine to have a preference but it is not fine to lead your viewers to believe that your preference is the only right, rewardable way. He and Peggy would often put down Slutskaya ("she should just...stretch out...") for insufficient extension and flexibility. They should have done more to explain to the viewers that many styles exist and are possible under the rules as they exist.

Toward the end of his career, he also said some pretty objectionable things, like calling U.S. Nationals competitors "delicious young things." I do believe he went off air soon after. If I was a skating parent, I'd be buying a Doberman and a .38 after hearing this.

Meoima · Mar 11, 2014

Nadya said:
I agree with this. In addition, I think Button had a very definite and clear bias towards skaters of a particular kind - lyrical, balletic and hyper-flexible. It is fine to have a preference but it is not fine to lead your viewers to believe that your preference is the only right, rewardable way. He and Peggy would often put down Slutskaya ("she should just...stretch out...") for insufficient extension and flexibility. They should have done more to explain to the viewers that many styles exist and are possible under the rules as they exist.

Toward the end of his career, he also said some pretty objectionable things, like calling U.S. Nationals competitors "delicious young things." I do believe he went off air soon after. If I was a skating parent, I'd be buying a Doberman and a .38 after hearing this.

Button dislikes (hates) COP, he has stated that so many times. He like the lyrical style, but if all the skaters try to be his type, then I would rather watch ballet. Not that his comments are always biased. It's just sometimes too much lyrical = yawning. :slink:

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 11, 2014

mskater93 said:
I honestly don't think she can be more technical in her explanation. She never skated under IJS and I don't think she's really taken the time to understand it (neither, imo, has Scott or Sandra). In general, I think NBC's production does a fairly crappy job in explaining how it works to the casual observer. Thank God I understand how IJS works because they don't explain it.

The IJS isn't complicated for people with their background. Lipinski is fully capable of breaking down a program to analyze it, whether that comes across in her commentary or not. Scott competed in the school of figures so it isn't as if he has no personal experience about skating quality. Sandra has choreographed multiple Olympic championship programs and has done work for Joannie, Yuna, and Kozuka. To suggest an Olympic champion would have anything but an easy time understanding the IJS is plain silly.

skatingpunk · Mar 12, 2014

os168 said:
I really don't get this idea of she is 'mailing it' in. Why would someone put themselves through so much trouble, ie/ skate with pain killers, to take up one of the most musically demanding and stamina driven program instead of recycling one of their old safe well received programs. Taking up strenuous training on an injured foot, to put her personal health, reputation and legacy on the line against these crazy odds, of high pressures and even greater expectations... and apparently the most hostile crowd I have ever seen in figure skating? (Can someone name even more openly hostile crowd in figure skating history?)

Thanks for your entire post. I really don't understand how some people think that her content at the Olympics was not demanding enough. This was the layout that won her Worlds in 2013 by a margin of 20 points. Also, just because Adelina performed her program as well as they've ever seen does not mean she should win the gold medal. I agree that Adelina showed many good qualities, but this was not a case of Tara vs. Michelle. It's not like Yuna's technical content was not there.

usethis2 · Mar 12, 2014

skatingpunk said:
It's not like Yuna's technical content was not there.

It's all meaningless noise. Knowledgeable folks, including Yuna, all saw/knew what was happening, It's no wonder that she was so calm and serene. If anything she saw what happened to Mao and that probably humbled her even more. She had a much luckier career than Mao, all things considered.

wootie · Mar 12, 2014

usethis2 said:
It's all meaningless noise. Knowledgeable folks all saw/knew what was happening, including Yuna. It's no wonder that she was so calm and serene. If anything she saw what happened to Mao and that probably humbled her even more. She had a much luckier career than Mao, all things considered.

Yes, after watching the final group of ladies one more time, it was rather obvious that Yuna and her coaches weren't expecting her to win despite being perfect. If you look at the three of them in the kiss and cry area, they are all very calm and look like they're pretty much ready to accept the inevitable outcome of this whole ladies event: that the corrupt judging was going to hand the gold medal to a Russian skater as long as one of them managed not to fall. When the scores appeared, Yuna put on a good sport face that basically said "yup, I knew this would happen...no worries." Also, both of her coaches (who seem really sweet) looked at each other briefly and smiled. They knew what was coming and were gracious enough to not complain about it even though I'm sure they knew it wasn't the right outcome. Thankfully, the rest of the skating world can voice our disapproval over the circus that was the results.:disapp:

usethis2 · Mar 12, 2014

What is hilarious is that the video created to "prove" how Adelina beat Yuna actually does the exact opposite. I get that the target audience is the general public who know nothing about figure skating, but do they (whoever made that video) really think that video will pass the test of time? That side-by-side video so dramatically displays the superiority of Yuna's skating in contrast to Adelina's, it's not even funny. It's uploaded on YouTube by an apparent Yuna fan. (judging by the Korean-sounding name) :laugh:

mskater93 · Mar 12, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
The IJS isn't complicated for people with their background. Lipinski is fully capable of breaking down a program to analyze it, whether that comes across in her commentary or not. Scott competed in the school of figures so it isn't as if he has no personal experience about skating quality. Sandra has choreographed multiple Olympic championship programs and has done work for Joannie, Yuna, and Kozuka. To suggest an Olympic champion would have anything but an easy time understanding the IJS is plain silly.

I am suggesting more so that NBC is responsible for their crap-tacular production plan, but I don't like how any of them approach commentating. There are some very complex things about IJS that they don't explain such as why a certain spin or step sequence gets a specific level (whether because they don't know the details of what dropped a planned L4 to a L3 or they've been told to not delve into detail and keep the analysis simple, I don't know) which leads to people who don't watch with a tech specialist's eye to not get why someone got a specific level called (people that watch more than once every four years but who aren't so deep into the sport as to be able to spot the cause). Also, if you don't read the rules and clarifications each year, you don't know the specifics and so couldn't go into the details (like the year the spin rules changed so that a feature will only be counted once). That's one of the great things about Chris Howrath (who is the "British guy who was with the Aussie woman on the on-line call from NBC" and who is on BBC) - he's currently a skating director and coach in the US and therefore keeps VERY current on the rules so his skaters don't miss out and can explain why a L3 versus a L4.

jenaj · Mar 12, 2014

skatingpunk said:
Thanks for your entire post. I really don't understand how some people think that her content at the Olympics was not demanding enough. This was the layout that won her Worlds in 2013 by a margin of 20 points. Also, just because Adelina performed her program as well as they've ever seen does not mean she should win the gold medal. I agree that Adelina showed many good qualities, but this was not a case of Tara vs. Michelle. It's not like Yuna's technical content was not there.

I think there are similarities to Tara vs. Michelle, with the added element of suspect judging. Someone could nitpick Tara's program to find flaws in her technical elements (there are some) and say that the scoring was incorrect, just like they are saying with Adelina's scoring. I think Adelina did skate with more passion and energy than Yuna, just like the accepted wisdom on Tara vs. Michelle. Others may see it differently, of course. But even before the Olympics, I thought Yuna's long program was kind of blah. And others did, too. Look back at the threads on Korean Nationals and Golden Spin. The difference between 2010 and 2014 is that the field had gotten stronger technically. More ladies were doing the difficult jumps. In fact, the field had gotten stronger since 2013 Worlds, with Julia Lipnitskaya, the new and improved Gracie Gold and Adelina, who had done well on the Grand Prix circuit. Yuna chose to stay in place. And one can see why--she had run away with the gold medal at Worlds. But the Olympic gold often goes to those who take risks. Not only Tara, but Sarah Hughes, too. With the biased judging, Yuna probably couldn't have won even if she had revived her triple loop (or otherwise upped her technical content) and picked more stirring music. But she would have made it a closer competition and harder for the judges to deny her the gold.

How Sotnikova beat Kim - Move by Move

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

drivingmissdaisy

Amer

mskater93

drivingmissdaisy

mskater93

drivingmissdaisy

mskater93

drivingmissdaisy

gkelly

mskater93

Nadya

Meoima

Match Penalty

drivingmissdaisy

skatingpunk

usethis2

wootie

Match Penalty

usethis2

mskater93

jenaj

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