- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
amazing! you're still about to use your microscope?
Did you miss mazurka and a three turn between the landing of the salchow and the one back crossover?
She then did a couple of steps that don't even have a real name as far as I know -- a little step from LBI to RFI without much weight on it or turning the whole body forward (kind of like a LBI mohawk, but I just call that kind of move a "step out") then a cross in front, sort of the reverse of normal back crossover. Easy enough to mistake for another back crossover at first glance, but does adds a bit of difficulty and variety.
Eh I'm saying it's not a crossover at all (notwithstanding that the legs cross -- that's where more understanding skaters will have to chime in). Also, Blades of Passion in this thread previously demarcated the beginning of the step sequence as after a skater did a crossover; extrapolating from this, then whatever Adelina and Yuna did before their crossover (3S + steps for Adelina, sequence for Yuna) likely wouldn't count toward the entrance to their axels (more experienced skaters will have to weigh in on this). And depending on how generous you are, the backward one-foot glide that both did before their axels likely nullify anything they did between it and their respective back crossover.
edited: I stand corrected. I was exaggerating on that one a bit.
What I was trying to say is that it puzzles me how Adelina's 2A with "unknown" steps (like you say) that weren't even clear enough to be recognized as steps would be more appreciated than a 2A with more intricate, faster in speed and transition AND clearer steps/movements and was followed immediately by a difficult element (spin)?
*underlined the scores that confuse me
Yuna: 0.79 (GOEs 2 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2)
Adelina: 1.07 (GOEs: 2 3 2 2 2 2 3 2 1)
IMO, they should have gotten the same amount of GOEs or Yuna should have scored higher based on more difficult entry (intricacy) and exit (immediately to a combination spin). Why would Yuna get +1s? and Why would Adelina get +3s? IMO, both their 2As were in +2 GoE range.
I have Kostner's SP footwork worked out (just the turns; she should be level 3 on the turns alone since it looks like she put her foot down during one of the combination turns) but never bothered to post it.
Interesting. Sky Italia did a sbs video analysis between Carolina and Adelina.
I must say the guy who did it it's from Eurosport Ita. He is very knowledgeable, not biased at all and openly a Yuna fan.
He said that the best footwork were Carolina's. I regret that I didn't recorded that but I was not expecting it.
He said that both were level 4 but that Carolina's performance was a bit better, therefore higher GOE for her.
I don't know about Yuna though because it was done the day after by Barbara Fusar Poli, and I didn't see that bit.
edited: I stand corrected. I was exaggerating on that one a bit. I honestly saw 2 cross overs but you guys pointed out that there was only 1. But my point is not the crossovers. I really don't get why people fuss about crossovers. What I was trying to say is that it puzzles me how Adelina's 2A with "unknown" steps (like you say) that weren't even clear enough to be recognized as steps would be more appreciated than a 2A with more intricate, faster in speed and transition AND clearer steps/movements and was followed immediately by a difficult element (spin)?
*underlined the scores that confuse me
Yuna: 0.79 (GOEs 2 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2)
Adelina: 1.07 (GOEs: 2 3 2 2 2 2 3 2 1)
IMO, they should have gotten the same amount of GOEs or Yuna should have scored higher based on more difficult entry (intricacy) and exit (immediately to a combination spin). Why would Yuna get +1s? and Why would Adelina get +3s? IMO, both their 2As were in +2 GoE range.
Yuna's lutz was shaky. True. But it was landed on one foot. Adelina had a two-foot landing.
Thanks for acknowledging that.
The problem with exaggerating, especially in the direction of downplaying or even insulting the content of skater you think was overmarked and/or overpraising the skater you think was undermarked heats up the emotion in the thread without shedding light -- it's a good way to pick a fight, a bad way to ask and answer honest questions.
We made a fuss about crossovers because you made an inaccurate statement about crossovers. I just wanted to set the record straight.
My answer, based on my understanding of the rules, is that neither of these skaters did any transitions in or out of of their solo double axels that would contribute either positively or negatively to the GOE of that element. They both held a back outside edge for a couple of seconds and stepped up into the jump in a normal plain vanilla axel entrance, and neither of them held the landing for a long time or in an enhanced position or did anything difficult on or coming out of the landing edge.
Kim stepped forward right into a spin. Normal landing to normal spin entry, but the fact that there was nothing in between adds to the overall Intricacy of the program for the Transitions component, not for the GOE.
Sotnikova did a mazurka jump. Not extremely difficult, but adds a small bit of extra technical content and reasonably well done. I would also say it adds to the Variety, except for the fact that she did the same thing on the landing of the preceding 3S.
The connections from one element to the next that you point out would be a few of many over the whole program that would figure in to the Transitions component. Just in these few seconds before and after the double axels, Kim probably deserves more credit for Intricacy.
But if we chose different small segments of the programs, Sotnikova might come out ahead on Transitions. If we were really looking at the program components rather than GOEs, we'd need to look at the whole program, not isolated clips.
My guess about why some judges scored S +3 vs. K +2, or S +2 vs. K +1, would be that Sotnikova's double axel looked higher/faster/covering more ice to them in real time than Kim's, enough to give that bullet point to S and not K. It looks that way to me on video, only slightly, but maybe the effect was stronger in real life. You're obviously seeing it differently -- which speaks to the subjectivity of evaluating "good" height, distance, and ice coverage by the naked eye.
Another possibility is that some judges did in fact give Sotnikova credit for the mazurka as a creative variation on the landing.
Kostner's performance described as exciting, and it is the strongest part of the program that meet the music buildup from soft to strong to high.
Source: http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2948217346
1. toe steps, counterclockwise
2. change of edge,clockwise
3. three turns,clockwise
4. twizzle x2,clockwise
5. rocker,clockwise
6. counter,clockwise
7. change of edge + 2 foot skating,clockwise
8. toe steps,counterclockwise
9. change of foot (or Mawhawk),counterclockwise
10.three turns,clockwise (it meant to be 2x 3turns, but rule state 3turns must be one footed, so 2nd 3turn is discounted because Kostner dropped her foot)
11. Inner spread eagle,clockwise
12. cross roll rockers,counter + clockwise
13. toe hop,clockwise
14. rocker,clockwise
15. counter,clockwise
16. loop,clockwise
17. hop,clockwise
18. three turns,counterclockwise
19. loop,counterclockwise
20. twizzle x2,counterclockwise
21. choctaw,counterclockwise
22. rocker,counterclockwise
23. counter,counterclockwise
24. bracket,clockwise
25. running steps,clockwise
26. choctaw,clockwise
27. curve with change of edge,clockwise + counterclockwise
28. bracket,counterclockwise
29. Rocker,counterclockwise
30. three turns,counterclockwise
Even though it contains less step movements than Yuna's Adios, it took place during the music highlights, therefore was effective with good degrees of difficulty, enough for level 4. The poster think Kim's step sequence is more difficult due to the footwork composition of the turns, and the ice coverage placement is far richer. Although Kostner also has her high degree of difficulty, since her turns are all basically on the outer edge. Kim is limited by the Tango upright posture which restrict her ability to freely lean forward backwards, windmill arms and such and thus stylistically completely different from Bolero which creatively is more impressionist in approach, therefore Kostner can really let it go with freedom without any restrictions.
-------------------
Asada's sequences (source: http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2979994768)
All of mao's program from Tat always consist of a final step line step sequence that is the most important highlight of the program, from ladies in Lavender till Rach 2. Again, this step sequence is fully packed with difficulty and satisfy level 4.
1. right back inner twizzle,clockwise
2. edge work,clockwise
3. right back 3turn,clockwise
4. Curve change of edge (left float leg (?) swing), right forward to right inner, counterclockwise
5. edge work, counterclockwise
6. edge work,clockwise
7. right forward outer twizzle x2, clockwise(right back inner glide)
8. right back inner rocker, clockwise
9. right forward inner counter, clockwise
10. edgework with a toe hop, counterclockwise
11. right forward inner 3 turn, counterclockwise
12. left forward outer twizzle, counterclockwise
13. axel,counterclockwise
14. right back outer twizzle x 2, counterclockwise
15. right forward inner bracket, clockwise
16. back rocker,clockwise
17. change of edge, left outer to left right inner, counterclockwise
18. left back inner rocker, counterclockwise
19. left forward inner bracket, counterclockwise
20. left back outer counter, counterclockwise
21. left forward outer loop, counterclockwise (followed by axel)
22. edge change, step, right back outer to right back inner, clockwise
23. right back inner loop, clockwise
24. hop followed by illusion spin (left forward outer 3turn + left back inner loop),counterclockwise
25. choctaw x 3, right back outer, left forward inner - right back outer - left forward inner,counterclockwise+clockwise+counterclockwise
26. mohawk, counterclockwise
Although on paper, this step sequence doesn't look as difficult as Yuna, it is about the same as Kostner, but it is very difficult for 2 particular reasons. One is that is packed with content, such as hop, turn, demanding upper body movement need to be completed during the the music highlight. Secondly, some movements on paper may look simple but is physically demanding like the 4,5 turn with use of edge works, basically physically draining, a dash till the end. Interestingly the poster think there are room for choreographic improvement, like even though there are 2 single 3turns, with good upper body movement, but to someone of Mao's stature and ability, it is not grand enough. He noted Tat is always goes for 'grander grander magnificent' type of feeling, which doesn't always match Mao's natural style, although he also think other than the 2 one footed spins, Tat could have added one more to be more well rounded. He praised Mao as the one who were able to let herself go and give her all the most although he still think Yuna's step sequence was best due deep edges, clarity of movements and difficulty.
One got +GOE, one got -GOE. What's the problem?
It is an interesting view from the Italian commentator, especially on Yuna should be on level 4.
I feel like someone mentioned that their "conspiracy theory" was that the ISU was trying to push the up and coming skaters.
No you don't. That is a load of ********. Carolina busted her *** to skate a clean lp, and Yuna likewise struggled to do that brilliant step sequence. Those who say Adelina just 'had excitement' are full of ****.If this is true, and I do find it plausible, I don't think it is because of a conspiracy. I think the judges themselves get excited to see the young skaters perform well because it is usually a contrast to the more reserved style of the veterans. Comparing Adelina to each of Yuna, Mao or Caro and I think you'll see the veterans had more polished performances but Adelina skated with more energy and excitement. Whether you like Adelina or not, you have to admit that she "went for it" more than Yuna or Caro.
^I always leaned towards that over corruption as an explanation. There was an interview where Scott Hamilton just blatantly predicted that the judges would be sympathetic towards Yulia because Yuna is already so successful (financially).
I have a question regarding the judge panel...
Is it normal they switch some judges after the short program for the long? Do they always do that for Olympics?