2022/23 Ice Dance Technical Requirements (Jr. and Sr.) Announced

auser · Apr 23, 2022

Flying Feijoa said:
so the main effect of ditching patterns is to lower the bar for skating skills.

Why does this make me so sad?!

kolyadafan2002 · Apr 23, 2022

synesthesia said:
I doubt it will have that effect, nor do I think that’s the intention (if anything they should try to recruit more skaters into the pairs discipline).

The biggest barrier to taking up ice dance (or pairs) is finding a suitable partner/a partnership that works longterm plus learning the partnering skills. The main reason why we don’t see many skaters switch disciplines at an advanced age (20+) is because, aside from learning the basic skills, it takes time for teams to gel. I’m sure extremely late switches like Dai’s will stay an anomaly (if not singular) at the elite level – the lack of pattern dances won’t change that. Moreover if you look at teams comprised of two former singles skaters like Muramoto/Takahashi or Turkkila/Versluis or singles skaters, who teamed up with experienced ice dancers like Walker or Ambrulevičius (or Kana with Chris), they aren’t generally weaker at the pattern dances than skaters, who primarily focused on ice dance from an early age. On the other hand there are long-time ice dancers, who possess many great qualities required in id, but struggle with the patterns (and step sequences) due to so so edge quality (most of the time it’s one partner in a team, rarely both). And established teams with weaker patterns are able to score as much as or even more than lower ranked teams, who hit all 4 KPs anyway, because what they lack in bv, judges are willing to award them in GOEs instead. But at least it was a leveled element, that allowed some distinction between teams within the same tier. Replacing it with a non-leveled element will only make the scoring shenanigans worse, as some here have already said. I can’t imagine it’s going to convince anyone to switch, if the scoring gets even murkier and the wait-your-turn tradition is reinforced.

As somebody who has done both,
I just want to say Pattern Dances are by far the hardest part of ice dance. It's the only element that requires you to conform to perfect timing and number of beats set by the ISU, have neatness in the footwork to a way that you have to conform to (rather than how you feel comfortable to), and follow precise pattonage that you have no control over choosing.
In the rest of ice dance, you can adjust the music beats/rhythms, the legs, the number of beats per edge, the steps etc to suit your strongest skating and make you comfortable. Pattern dances for me were the biggest exception, and teaches the skater a lot about steps, turns and timing - and forces them to work hard to achieve perfection with this.
Of course, some people are more comfortable with some pattern dances, and some prefer others - but for me, they were by far the biggest barrier to entry when it came to ice dance, when performed properly at the highest level (which many ex-figure skaters do not do). Let's say you struggle with a sequence of steps - without the pattern dance, you simply don't need to include them, and you can do whatever you want instead.

The other issue is it's the one thing common across all ice dances. now, they don't have a set comparison to compare the skating skills of two couples, as two couples are displaying very different footwork etc.

In reality, it's just a big no.

lariko · Apr 23, 2022

Flying Feijoa said:
Nah, Torvill/Dean also had fancy lifts and choreo so you're in good company. But they also slayed the field in pattern dances.
Based on the last few seasons there is already lots of encouragement for choreographic innovation (in the upper body anyway), so the main effect of ditching patterns is to lower the bar for skating skills.

Maybe they hope to ease the entry into seniors at the start of the cycle? Anyway, juniors have tango, so that’s gonna be cool. I am hoping to hit waltz one of these years, since it’s pretty.

kolyadafan2002 · Apr 23, 2022

lariko said:
Maybe they hope to ease the entry into seniors at the start of the cycle? Anyway, juniors have tango, so that’s gonna be cool. I am hoping to hit waltz one of these years, since it’s pretty.

It won't ease them in, if they have PD in junior instead of senior.

Also, if they start with no PD then suddenly throw it in midway through the cycle, it'll completely change the game so those juniors will suddenly be disadvantaged.

Flying Feijoa · Apr 23, 2022

lariko said:
Maybe they hope to ease the entry into seniors at the start of the cycle? Anyway, juniors have tango, so that’s gonna be cool. I am hoping to hit waltz one of these years, since it’s pretty.

I love waltzes

Golden Waltz is a nice one. Haven't seen it in ages, I suspect because of its difficulty (Juniors would get an easier option instead, e.g. Westminster Waltz).

Ic3Rabbit · Apr 23, 2022

Flying Feijoa said:
I love waltzes
Golden Waltz is a nice one. Haven't seen it in ages, I suspect because of its difficulty (Juniors would get an easier option instead, e.g. Westminster Waltz).

LOL Golden Waltz was last used 2010-11 season.

lariko · Apr 23, 2022

Flying Feijoa said:
Lajoie/Lagha and Shevchenko/Eremenko were battling it out at the top, those were the days

Oh, I like both of these teams, so I watched that and VM. The 2019 already had the good scoring windows, so the sequence is identifiable. I feel like I am all ready for tango August.

Thank you!

Flying Feijoa · Apr 23, 2022

Ic3Rabbit said:
LOL Golden Waltz was last used 2010-11 season.

That's true. But in the years since 2010/11, we had 2 seasons each of Rhumba, Midnight Blues and Finnstep (plus one extra season repeating Finnstep due to COVID). Golden Waltz seems a bit neglected in comparison...

Ic3Rabbit · Apr 23, 2022

Flying Feijoa said:
That's true. But in the years since 2010/11, we had 2 seasons each of Rhumba, Midnight Blues and Finnstep (plus one extra season repeating Finnstep due to COVID). Golden Waltz seems a bit neglected in comparison...

Never said it wasn't. Though there are many other dances we haven't seen in forever.

lariko · Apr 24, 2022

Flying Feijoa said:
That's true. But in the years since 2010/11, we had 2 seasons each of Rhumba, Midnight Blues and Finnstep (plus one extra season repeating Finnstep due to COVID). Golden Waltz seems a bit neglected in comparison...

It should be coming then, right? At least I hope so.

synesthesia · Apr 24, 2022

kolyadafan2002 said:
As somebody who has done both,
I just want to say Pattern Dances are by far the hardest part of ice dance. It's the only element that requires you to conform to perfect timing and number of beats set by the ISU, have neatness in the footwork to a way that you have to conform to (rather than how you feel comfortable to), and follow precise pattonage that you have no control over choosing.
In the rest of ice dance, you can adjust the music beats/rhythms, the legs, the number of beats per edge, the steps etc to suit your strongest skating and make you comfortable. Pattern dances for me were the biggest exception, and teaches the skater a lot about steps, turns and timing - and forces them to work hard to achieve perfection with this.
Of course, some people are more comfortable with some pattern dances, and some prefer others - but for me, they were by far the biggest barrier to entry when it came to ice dance, when performed properly at the highest level (which many ex-figure skaters do not do). Let's say you struggle with a sequence of steps - without the pattern dance, you simply don't need to include them, and you can do whatever you want instead.

The other issue is it's the one thing common across all ice dances. now, they don't have a set comparison to compare the skating skills of two couples, as two couples are displaying very different footwork etc.

In reality, it's just a big no.

Thank you for your first-hand insights! :thank:

Everyone has a different set of strengths and weaknesses, so I suppose everyone finds different aspects – technical and/or otherwise – the most challenging to adapt to. Of course the bar had already been gradually lowered since 2010. Daisuke, for example, picked out lifts and partner spins as the most difficult elements to master, even though he had to cram learn half of the Finnstep. And from Kana’s and his issues in the second half of this season it would seem that their lack of competition experience as a team is the biggest remaining hurdle for them since they keep making mistakes (always on different elements) that they never or rarely make in practice, according to Kana. Building trust, communication skills and the ability to “align”/achieve unison with a partner are among the challenges most often cited by singles skaters turned ice dancers at the elite level, as far as I can glean from interviews.

Based on your own first-hand knowledge, would you say that since the elimination of the CD/OD structure, most late switchers with no previous experience in ice dance, who manage to reach ISU Championship level, have certain strengths in common that enable them to catch up relatively quickly (aside from being hard and disciplined workers I guess)? And what are their most common weakpoints compared to experienced ice dancers?

Thank you again and sorry for straying OT a bit.

kolyadafan2002 · Apr 25, 2022

synesthesia said:
Thank you for your first-hand insights!

Everyone has a different set of strengths and weaknesses, so I suppose everyone finds different aspects – technical and/or otherwise – the most challenging to adapt to. Of course the bar had already been gradually lowered since 2010. Daisuke, for example, picked out lifts and partner spins as the most difficult elements to master, even though he had to cram learn half of the Finnstep. And from Kana’s and his issues in the second half of this season it would seem that their lack of competition experience as a team is the biggest remaining hurdle for them since they keep making mistakes (always on different elements) that they never or rarely make in practice, according to Kana. Building trust, communication skills and the ability to “align”/achieve unison with a partner are among the challenges most often cited by singles skaters turned ice dancers at the elite level, as far as I can glean from interviews.

Based on your own first-hand knowledge, would you say that since the elimination of the CD/OD structure, most late switchers with no previous experience in ice dance, who manage to reach ISU Championship level, have certain strengths in common that enable them to catch up relatively quickly (aside from being hard and disciplined workers I guess)? And what are their most common weakpoints compared to experienced ice dancers?

Thank you again and sorry for straying OT a bit.

I don't speak for everybody of course, but you can have my two cents here:

- lifts etc are very hard to learn. But once you have learnt them, to an extent you have learnt them. Pattern dances are changing so you are having to adapt to different ones each season, and adapt your timing and learn the correct footwork each season. It is the comparison - there is no hiding. You have to have the strong basic skating, the strong timing, and then learn it to as close to perfection as possible as you have to nail the timing and rhythm.

The most important thing in ice dance, is skating skills. The rest you can learn and build up at a later stage (upper body strength, lifts etc). Skating skills need to be there, and with PD there is nowhere to hide.
You can build and use clever choreography to an extent in the free dance etc to hide some of your weaker steps, and this is the advantage given to some late switchers who for example never felt secure with certain types of edges and choktaws. Don't get me wrong, without favouritism you won't get to the top 10 level without extremely strong skating no matter what, bur lack of PD has meant that now you can get to the championships etc with use of clever choreography etc.

And of course, this system might benefit those with weaker skating skills and flashy choreo like Chock/Bates against those with the best skating skills like hubbell/donohue (who have retired now of course).

Now onto second part:

The strengths in common aside from hardwork and determination tend to be those who learnt strong basic skating from a young age - those who can have good power and flow. Good lines etc help as well, but the skating itself is most important.

The most common weaknesses are lines, skating skills, and also not being suited to working in unison. Another common element people misjudge are body positions during steps and turns. In figure, you're free to an extent to learn how to do a turn with your own comfortable body position- but this has to change to have control when doing series of steps specific to pattern dances, but also with a partner you will need a certain body position to allow you to do certain steps in unison. This you cited from interviews as well.
The thing with PD, is you can't hide those weaknesses - but without PD you can choose the steps that you naturally have good body alignment in, and work to those advantages.

There are a few more weaknesses of course but these are the biggest "stand out points" for me (others have different opinions of course potentially)

Flying Feijoa · Apr 25, 2022

kolyadafan2002 said:
I don't speak for everybody of course, but you can have my two cents here:

- lifts etc are very hard to learn. But once you have learnt them, to an extent you have learnt them. Pattern dances are changing so you are having to adapt to different ones each season, and adapt your timing and learn the correct footwork each season. It is the comparison - there is no hiding. You have to have the strong basic skating, the strong timing, and then learn it to as close to perfection as possible as you have to nail the timing and rhythm.

The most important thing in ice dance, is skating skills. The rest you can learn and build up at a later stage (upper body strength, lifts etc). Skating skills need to be there, and with PD there is nowhere to hide.
You can build and use clever choreography to an extent in the free dance etc to hide some of your weaker steps, and this is the advantage given to some late switchers who for example never felt secure with certain types of edges and choktaws. Don't get me wrong, without favouritism you won't get to the top 10 level without extremely strong skating no matter what, bur lack of PD has meant that now you can get to the championships etc with use of clever choreography etc.

And of course, this system might benefit those with weaker skating skills and flashy choreo like Chock/Bates against those with the best skating skills like hubbell/donohue (who have retired now of course).

Now onto second part:

The strengths in common aside from hardwork and determination tend to be those who learnt strong basic skating from a young age - those who can have good power and flow. Good lines etc help as well, but the skating itself is most important.

The most common weaknesses are lines, skating skills, and also not being suited to working in unison. Another common element people misjudge are body positions during steps and turns. In figure, you're free to an extent to learn how to do a turn with your own comfortable body position- but this has to change to have control when doing series of steps specific to pattern dances, but also with a partner you will need a certain body position to allow you to do certain steps in unison. This you cited from interviews as well.
The thing with PD, is you can't hide those weaknesses - but without PD you can choose the steps that you naturally have good body alignment in, and work to those advantages.

There are a few more weaknesses of course but these are the biggest "stand out points" for me (others have different opinions of course potentially)

All this, 100%!

I did the lower level pattern dances solo, but switched to partnered from around Junior Silver onward. The latter felt easier if we were well-coordinated, but if my timing/pattern/body position was off we'd block each other and have to break out of hold (or click blades and possibly splat

) I really had to clean up my footwork and free leg to avoid tripping us up. Now I'm just about used to it.

Also the way some pattern dances are laid out really shows up any deficiencies in power. If the music only allows for two 2-beat pushes to complete a lobe it's very obvious who has the most efficient strokes because their lobe would be bigger and deeper, and they'd move into areas of the rink that weaker competitors can't reach...

C/B have their fans, but yeah, I also thought of them specifically as beneficiaries (also F/G - as much as I like them for their fun choreo).

WednesdayMarch · Apr 29, 2022

No point me commenting with my 5 cents as @kolyadafan2002 has said it all for me. I shall now retire to my room and mourn the death of pattern dance. I may be some time.

GoneWithTheWind · May 4, 2022

Scale of Values for Ice Dance elements for 2022/2023 have been published:
https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/28329-isu-communication-2473/file

Personally, I'm groaning over the fact that the new Choreographic Rhythm Sequence has a base value of 2.00 but can receive up to 7.50 in GOE (for a +5). That's up to 9.50 points for an element with very little technical value, and is open to a whole lot of manipulation by the judges in propping up their chosen teams.

Overall, it seems this new rhythm dance format and scale of values puts a lot more emphasis on the GOE, rather than on the tech, and thus hands more control of the scoring to the judges rather than to the tech panel. For a discipline which was already heavily political, this has just made the situation even worse.

Also, although I'm not sure if this is of any importance, the One Foot Step Sequence appears to have been renamed the One Foot Turns Sequence.

kolyadafan2002 · May 12, 2022

GoneWithTheWind said:
Scale of Values for Ice Dance elements for 2022/2023 have been published:
https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/28329-isu-communication-2473/file

Personally, I'm groaning over the fact that the new Choreographic Rhythm Sequence has a base value of 2.00 but can receive up to 7.50 in GOE (for a +5). That's up to 9.50 points for an element with very little technical value, and is open to a whole lot of manipulation by the judges in propping up their chosen teams.

Overall, it seems this new rhythm dance format and scale of values puts a lot more emphasis on the GOE, rather than on the tech, and thus hands more control of the scoring to the judges rather than to the tech panel. For a discipline which was already heavily political, this has just made the situation even worse.

Also, although I'm not sure if this is of any importance, the One Foot Step Sequence appears to have been renamed the One Foot Turns Sequence.

The choreographic rhythm sequence GOE grading is one of those things that is theoretically very good, and in practice gonna be very bad.

In ice dance quality should be valued and should be a distinction - the issue is as you pointed out earlier - ice dance is already a political aesthetic sport it'll just lead to huge manipulation in scoring. In a perfect objective world, I'd cheer for this sort of scoring. In the real world we live in its a nightmare of a decision.

labgoat · May 22, 2022

Looking for examples of how these Rhythms have been used in the past? Here is a list of the years they were used for both junior and senior. I wish my own lists went back further, but they don't yet.

Junior: Tango plus at least one of the following Dance Styles – Paso Doble, Flamenco, Spanish Waltz, Fandango, Bolero, Jota, Sevillanas, Milonga
• The Pattern Dance Element - Argentine Tango - skated to Tango rhythm, with the range of tempo: 24 measures of 4 beats per minute (96 beats per minute) plus or minus 2 beats per minute

List of JUNIOR Original Dance Rhythms by season
1983–1984 Paso Doble
1987–1988 Tango
1995–1996 Paso Doble
1996–1997 Tango
2001–2002 Tango, Flamenco, Paso Doble, Spanish Waltz
2006–2007 Tango
2011-2012 Cha Cha Congelado, Rhumba, Cha Cha, Samba, Mambo, and Merengue
2014-2015 Silver Samba, two Latin American rhythms (Rhumba, Cha Cha, Salsa, Merengue)
2017-2018 Cha Cha Congelado, Rhumba, Mambo, Cha Cha, Salsa, Meringe, Samba, Bachata
2018-2019 Argentine Tango

Senior: Latin Dance Styles: At Least Two (2) Different Dance Styles/Rhythms chosen from Salsa, Bachata, Merengue, Mambo, Cha Cha, Rhumba, Samba. No set pattern.
• The Pattern Dance Type Step Sequence and Step Sequence must be skated to a different Latin Style/Rhythm.

List of SENIOR Original Dance Rhythms by season
1983–1984 Paso Doble
1987–1988 Tango
1989–1990 Samba
1993–1994 Rhumba
1995–1996 Paso Doble
1996–1997 Tango
1999–2000 Latin Combination: Merengue, Cha Cha, Samba, Mambo, Rumba
2005–2006 Latin Combination: Merengue, Cha Cha, Samba, Mambo, Rumba
2011-2012 Cha Cha Congelado, Rhumba, Cha Cha, Samba, Mambo, and Merengue
2014–2015 Senior: Paso Doble, Spanish Dance rhythms
2017-2018 Rhumba, Mambo, Cha Cha, Salsa, Meringe, Samba, Bachata
2018–2019 Tango Romantica

Name some of your favorite dances of the past done in these rhythms...

Princessroja · May 22, 2022

labgoat said:
Looking for examples of how these Rhythms have been used in the past? Here is a list of the years they were used for both junior and senior. I wish my own lists went back further, but they don't yet.

Junior: Tango plus at least one of the following Dance Styles – Paso Doble, Flamenco, Spanish Waltz, Fandango, Bolero, Jota, Sevillanas, Milonga
• The Pattern Dance Element - Argentine Tango - skated to Tango rhythm, with the range of tempo: 24 measures of 4 beats per minute (96 beats per minute) plus or minus 2 beats per minute

List of JUNIOR Original Dance Rhythms by season
1983–1984 Paso Doble
1987–1988 Tango
1995–1996 Paso Doble
1996–1997 Tango
2001–2002 Tango, Flamenco, Paso Doble, Spanish Waltz
2006–2007 Tango
2011-2012 Cha Cha Congelado, Rhumba, Cha Cha, Samba, Mambo, and Merengue
2014-2015 Silver Samba, two Latin American rhythms (Rhumba, Cha Cha, Salsa, Merengue)
2017-2018 Cha Cha Congelado, Rhumba, Mambo, Cha Cha, Salsa, Meringe, Samba, Bachata
2018-2019 Argentine Tango

Senior: Latin Dance Styles: At Least Two (2) Different Dance Styles/Rhythms chosen from Salsa, Bachata, Merengue, Mambo, Cha Cha, Rhumba, Samba. No set pattern.
• The Pattern Dance Type Step Sequence and Step Sequence must be skated to a different Latin Style/Rhythm.

List of SENIOR Original Dance Rhythms by season
1983–1984 Paso Doble
1987–1988 Tango
1995–1996 Paso Doble
1996–1997 Tango
1989–1990 Samba
1993–1994 Rhumba
1999–2000 Latin Combination: Merengue, Cha Cha, Samba, Mambo, Rumba
2005–2006 Latin Combination: Merengue, Cha Cha, Samba, Mambo, Rumba
2011-2012 Cha Cha Congelado, Rhumba, Cha Cha, Samba, Mambo, and Merengue
2014–2015 Senior: Paso Doble, Spanish Dance rhythms
2017-2018 Rhumba, Mambo, Cha Cha, Salsa, Meringe, Samba, Bachata
2018–2019 Tango Romantica

Name some of your favorite dances of the past done in these rhythms...

Seconding a request for any dances at all done for the flamenco/sevillanas rhythms!