South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

Meoima · Mar 27, 2014

chalk5 said:
Do you guys know what is up with Adelina? We can't just put this under the rug you know. You win some, you lose some. And I think it's time for her to lose that gold medal and a career in figure skating in general. She is just not that good. She skates like a junior with that awkward landing transition with flowing hand move. Those things were taught when you are like 7 year old.

Like I said, bashing athletes does not make your idol happy. Kim Yuna is a classy person, she would definitely not want you guys to bully any skater. You question the judges, it's okay. You question the federation, it's okay. You put the blame on the athletes and ask for her medal to be stripped away, shame on you. That is not the true meaning of sportsmanship. I have seen posts saying Adelina is really a nice girl, yet people like you are making a fuss like she is the villain while she has done nothing except skating. Skaters do not give themselves scores. Yet they are the one to blame, huh? How lame.

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 27, 2014

Meanwhile there are perfectly valid, maybe necessary , issues at hand to be that need to be addressed.

winky97 · Mar 27, 2014

Meoima said:
I know this has been said already but I just want to send some thoughts, I do think there is some dubious plans going behind the judges and tech panel, but for the judge who hugged Adelina after the judging event, it practically means nothing. They are both Russians and the judge might just have congratulated her. The action itself say nothing at all. Mind you, I am not Russians. Anyways I think the SP score for Kim is well-deserved.

I am not saying the hug meant anything. I don't know these women to say that. I just think it was a stupid to hug right then right there because it looks bad. Even if nothing improper happened, it gives people something to talk about, particularly when they disagree with the result. I think that Yuna Kim and Carolina Kostner should have been a little higher in the SP, but more importantly I think that Adelina's SP score should have been lower than what it was with her easier combination jump.

Meoima · Mar 27, 2014

winky97 said:
I am not saying the hug meant anything. I don't know these women to say that. I just think it was a stupid to hug right then right there because it looks bad. Even if nothing improper happened, it gives people something to talk about, particularly when they disagree with the result. I think that Yuna Kim and Carolina Kostner should have been a little higher in the SP, but more importantly I think that Adelina's SP score should have been lower than what it was with her easier combination jump.

I get the idea. Actually they shouldn't have let a Russian judges join the panel.

winky97 · Mar 27, 2014

Meoima said:
I get the idea. Actually they shouldn't have let a Russian judges join the panel.

Honestly I don't know what the answer is. In figure skating there are always judges on the panel from the same country as some of the skaters. An American judged the SP and three Americans were completing and a Korean was on the panel in Vancouver when Yuna won and I believe a Korean judge was on the SP in Sochi. In fact, more than likely all the judges probably had at least one skater from their country. Can't have a special rule against Russians judging although I do think that once someone is disciplined for cheating he should be done as a judge. I think that they should not have anonymous judging because that helps cheaters hide in the shadows. Even if the public does not know what judge gave what score, the ISU should know.

chalk5 · Mar 27, 2014

Sorry guys. Just getting overwhelmed here, and just trying to get questions answered. But going back to my question, aside from the jumping and techniques of Adelina, I think that given her talent, which I fully adore, I think she would benefit if she did better with her artistry. It is not that she is lacking artistry but she is putting too much emphasis on things that are taught to little kids. Such as make flowy movement with your hands. It just gets a little old to watch as I want to see mature and aged skating.

Meoima · Mar 27, 2014

winky97 said:
Honestly I don't know what the answer is. In figure skating there are always judges on the panel from the same country as some of the skaters. An American judged the SP and three Americans were completing and a Korean was on the panel in Vancouver when Yuna won and I believe a Korean judge was on the SP in Sochi. In fact, more than likely all the judges probably had at least one skater from their country. Can't have a special rule against Russians judging although I do think that once someone is disciplined for cheating he should be done as a judge. I think that they should not have anonymous judging because that helps cheaters hide in the shadows. Even if the public does not know what judge gave what score, the ISU should know.

Anonymous judging is definitely doing harm to figure skating, I know. People have the rights to question why the judges give which score. I am also extremely frustrated at PCS inflation. There is not a reasonable reason for a Skater's PCS suddenly rise from A to Z. People need a more transparent scoring protocols.

Olympia · Mar 27, 2014

Meoima said:
Like I said, bashing athletes does not make your idol happy. Kim Yuna is a classy person, she would definitely not want you guys to bully any skater. You question the judges, it's okay. You question the federation, it's okay. You put the blame on the athletes and ask for her medal to be stripped away, shame on you. That is not the true meaning of sportsmanship. I have seen posts saying Adelina is really a nice girl, yet people like you are making a fuss like she is the villain while she has done nothing except skating. Skaters do not give themselves scores. Yet they are the one to blame, huh? How lame.

This is important to keep in mind. Adelina didn't do anything but skate. And whether any action is taken to change the results of the ladies' competition, I can't imagine any situation at all in which they would actually take away Adelina's gold. They do that to athletes who cheat or take steroids or something--not to honest competitors who do their honorable best.

Meoima · Mar 27, 2014

chalk5 said:
Sorry guys. Just getting overwhelmed here, and just trying to get questions answered. But going back to my question, aside from the jumping and techniques of Adelina, I think that given her talent, which I fully adore, I think she would benefit if she did better with her artistry. It is not that she is lacking artistry but she is putting too much emphasis on things that are taught to little kids. Such as make flowy movement with your hands. It just gets a little old to watch as I want to see mature and aged skating.

It's true that as much as I adore some young skaters, I have to admit they are still young and has yet to archive the polished style for their performances. They have better technique but they need times to adjust their talents and the programs they are performing. Given the suitable program, they will shine, comes along with it is the experience. Nevertheless, they have to gain maturity on their own. Compete more and archive more, that is the protocol. The problem with the judging is, even if there is something nebulous, they still can pull the "subjective" card for free pass.

chalk5 · Mar 27, 2014

It just worries me that there is a special relationship between a judge and a player. Not just for figure skating, but if this happened in let say World' Cup, there would be an outcry from all over the world. I mean if those pictures went unnoticed, how were able to deep further into the corruption and the controversy in the judging panel in the first place. It is that one thing leads to another, and I think that many are afraid that people will try to find out what is actually happening behind these close doors. I hope that Adelina will not severely affected by this, but I am afraid she already has in some ways. The whole thing is a ludacris, and there is absolutely no celebration for Adelina outside of Russia, nor will she be invited to international ice shows or interviews to claim her fame and handwork. She is still a teenager, and we don't know her personal life. From seeing the way it's going right now, I think they will eventually force Adelina to retire, and I wonder how things will change in the future like 30 or 40 years later when the sport itself becomes more competitive with rising stars all over the world not just privileged nations. Hopefully Yuna's legacy will carry and I believe so, and Adelina will be respected for her good support and work ethic for her country more than being a "cheated Olympic Gold Champion".

Meoima · Mar 27, 2014

chalk5 said:
It just worries me that there is a special relationship between a judge and a player. Not just for figure skating, but if this happened in let say World' Cup, there would be an outcry from all over the world. I mean if those pictures went unnoticed, how were able to deep further into the corruption and the controversy in the judging panel in the first place. It is that one thing leads to another, and I think that many are afraid that people will try to find out what is actually happening behind these close doors. I hope that Adelina will not severely affected by this, but I am afraid she already has in some ways. The whole thing is a ludacris, and there is absolutely no celebration for Adelina outside of Russia, nor will she be invited to international ice shows or interviews to claim her fame and handwork. She is still a teenager, and we don't know her personal life. From seeing the way it's going right now, I think they will eventually force Adelina to retire, and I wonder how things will change in the future like 30 or 40 years later when the sport itself becomes more competitive with rising stars all over the world not just privileged nations. Hopefully Yuna's legacy will carry and I believe so, and Adelina will be respected for her good support and work ethic for her country more than being a "cheated Olympic Gold Champion".

That is sure a pity. Adelina had a bright future before Olympic. Her jumps are huge, compare to other Russian girls. Surely she is a nice girl, but now people are hatting on her for the gold medal which is not her fault. Let's just assume the judging were fair and the judges are innocent until now since we haven't found any proof, the anonymous judging only makes people doubt it even more. If the judging panel has nothing to hide, then they should show us which judges give which scores.

qwertyskates · Mar 28, 2014

Meoima said:
Like I said, bashing athletes does not make your idol happy. Kim Yuna is a classy person, she would definitely not want you guys to bully any skater. You question the judges, it's okay. You question the federation, it's okay. You put the blame on the athletes and ask for her medal to be stripped away, shame on you. That is not the true meaning of sportsmanship. I have seen posts saying Adelina is really a nice girl, yet people like you are making a fuss like she is the villain while she has done nothing except skating. Skaters do not give themselves scores. Yet they are the one to blame, huh? How lame.

Oh, they are not "bullying" Adelina at all. They just want to take away her medal and make sure her career is forever crushed. They also want to make sure Russian judges will never be allowed to judge whenever there's a Russian skater skating, but a KSU official judging Korean skaters is fine, because they will be as unbiased as the posters here. After all of that, they will hug her. There, Adelina should feel better! :laugh:

For the record, I agree that Yuna didn't bring her best skate (and I don't mean BV alone) to Sochi, Mao did, Chan did, Adelina did, Hanyu did, Caro did, of course they fell and flopped, they skated very difficult, intricate, details packed programs under intense pressure. An easier program will always be less risky, and it's a smart strategy to be the one without major flaws (though there were URs and jumps were small) in such a field when rivals have been falling alot the entire quad, including Adeina, Caro, and always Mao and her 3A. The great upset was of course Adelina skating her difficult program almost flawlessly, with a bobble, and chalked up her points in TES.

cooper · Mar 28, 2014

qwertyskates said:
Oh, they are not "bullying" Adelina at all. They just want to take away her medal and make sure her career is forever crushed. They also want to make sure Russian judges will never be allowed to judge whenever there's a Russian skater skating, but a KSU official judging Korean skaters is fine, because they will be as unbiased as the posters here. After all of that, they will hug her. There, Adelina should feel better!

For the record, I agree that Yuna didn't bring her best skate (and I don't mean BV alone) to Sochi, Mao did, Chan did, Adelina did, Hanyu did, Caro did, of course they fell and flopped, they skated very difficult, intricate, details packed programs under intense pressure. An easier program will always be less risky, and it's a smart strategy to be the one without major flaws (though there were URs and jumps were small) in such a field when rivals have been falling alot the entire quad, including Adeina, Caro, and always Mao and her 3A. The great upset was of course Adelina skating her difficult program almost flawlessly, with a bobble, and chalked up her points in TES.

what makes you think that yuna didn't bring her best skate?? if we talked about easier programs.. sure.. yuna didn't have the base values in the lp..but she should made it up for her quality of her jumps..and not to mention adelina didn't get the call on her flutz.. and yuna had one of the strongest layouts in the sp.. with her 3lutz(a true lutz)-3toe combo and the flip..

there was a thread arguing that her footwork sequence should have received a level 4.. and adios was one of those music that was difficult to skate.. and not to mention she was the last skater in the LP.. and yet didn't crumble under pressure..

so this whole argument about she didn't bring her best skate is ridiculous..

GGoldberg · Mar 28, 2014

Interesting that the Korean federation felt the need to express publicly their concern that lodging a complaint would have potential negative ramifications for their other Korean skaters. The perception of backlash is so obvious and real in this sport, it is embarrassing. So much about this whole sport's judging and systems are simply that. Embarrassing.

bara1968 · Mar 28, 2014

Apologize for being off-topic but-

How on earth Adios can be seen as somewhat "easy" program to skate? That program is packed with nice choreo details and Yuna interpreted every single note perfectly. Those tries, to rip off Yuna right after her retirement from some posters are getting too much to bear. Yuna herself said, Adios was the most difficult program to skate ever in her career. Do you think you know better than the skater who actually skated to the program? And this was from the skater who performed Gershwin perfectly, which was really packed with transitions and small little details between every single elements.

If Yuna wanted to have really effective, nice "strategy" for her Olympics, she could simply bring back the great Les mis from 2013 WC, but she did not. ( unlike Kostner, who brought back watered down Bolero, yet I agree that it was a wise choice for her )

Yuna did her best at Sochi. Yes she could do little better in terms of performance-wise, but under the immense pressure, horrendous crowd, knowing the ridiculous score for a Russian skater, she really DID her best by throwing her CLEAN program. I cannot think of any single skater who has guts to to as she did.

Besides, back to the topic- she was clearly robbed at Sochi. Who can explain Sot's PCS in logical way? Who can explain her tech mistakes, overlooked by tech panel, in logical way? Who can explain Sot's SP score, especially her PCS in logical way?

I have not yet found any single person who could even try to do that without just saying "sot put her heart" nonsense.

And how can asking such questions be seen as bullying on sot?

S.Korea was too late for filing whatever they are doing now. The scoring at Sochi was absolute disgrace, a big joke. They should have started making buzz right after the competition.

jennyanydots · Mar 28, 2014

I was rewatching Yuna's Gershwin Olympic performance and Adios really is more intricate and smooth. Gershwin had way more crossovers. Because Yuna makes it look so easy people perceive it as not trying? Of course there's a difference in presentation with Gershwin being more engaging and flashy while Adios was more introverted and a bit difficult to understand. I'm by no means a Yuna über but her skating really has developed, aside from hers spins getting slower and no more Biellmann. Seriously, there's no way someone could pull off those performances with that amount of pressure in that situation if they weren't fully committed.

qwertyskates · Mar 28, 2014

Yuna had one of the lowest BV amongst the top ladies,and "quality of skating" or "clean" is simply not enough to be OGM. Otherwise, Chan could have simplified his program to count on beating a falling, nervous Hanyu with his PCS, but he still brought an intricate program. Yuna's programs had a lot of crossovers to gain speed (not a good sign of difficulty, intricacy or complexity...), and there were very few tango moves, not like Roxanne. There were all these criticisms of Adelina's hand movements but at least they were part of choreography to add staccato. Yuna had lots of "poses" ...if she had brought something as mesmerizing as Vancouver LP, or even slightly less, she would likely have beaten Adelina, and I would back her all the way, as I did for Vancouver.

bara1968 · Mar 28, 2014

qwertyskates said:
Yuna had one of the lowest BV amongst the top ladies,and "quality of skating" or "clean" is simply not enough to be OGM. Otherwise, Chan could have simplified his program to count on beating a falling, nervous Hanyu with his PCS, but he still brought an intricate program. Yuna's programs had a lot of crossovers to gain speed (not a good sign of difficulty, intricacy or complexity...), and there were very few tango moves, not like Roxanne. There were all these criticisms of Adelina's hand movements but at least they were part of choreography to add staccato. Yuna had lots of "poses" ...if she had brought something as mesmerizing as Vancouver LP, or even slightly less, she would likely have beaten Adelina, and I would back her all the way, as I did for Vancouver.

I do not want to repeat, but let me remind you the followings-

1. One of the reasons why judging at Sochi is questionable is the wrongfully judged BV. Yuna's should have been higher considering her stsq lev(should have been lv4 rather than lv3) and Sot's should have been LOT lower considering her stsq lv, under rotated 3T. Also she had flutz, which should have negated GOE she got. If the tech panel did not overlook Sot's mistakes, those BV difference and TES differences became pretty much coming down to 0. So BV argument does not work.

Even without considering above, The total BV(SP LP) difference is somewhat 1 point or so. If you consider above on top of that, again, BV argument works on behalf of Yuna, not against.

About jump difficulty- Yuna was the only one among top 3 who did three 3lz and two 3F in total with two 3Lz3T combinations.

2. Quality of skating, cleanness of course matter a LOT to determine the champion, since they directly and definitely affect PCS. If Chan was cleaner than Hanyu, he would have won easily. Sochi judging was very bad since no matter how good veterans were, Sot's PCS was virtual tie -the best score of the night, with unrefined skating skills, tentative movement even with errors!

3. Yuna did have lots of interesting choreo details in her program, from the beginning to the sensational ending pose.

4. I don't see her crossovers problematic at all. She did cover LOT more ice than any other ladies. I think that you should measure crossover/ice-coverage to be fair. The skater who does not generate same speed as hers or does not cover the ice as much as her would easily have less crossovers. Yes Sot had more transitions in between but they were not significant nor specifically difficult either.

capcomeback · Mar 28, 2014

Meoima said:
I know this has been said already but I just want to send some thoughts, I do think there is some dubious plans going behind the judges and tech panel, but for the judge who hugged Adelina after the judging event, it practically means nothing. They are both Russians and the judge might just have congratulated her. The action itself say nothing at all. Mind you, I am not Russians. Anyways I think the SP score for Kim is well-deserved.

So are you saying that Adelina's SP was over-scored? It was nowhere as good and had a lower BV than Yuna's. Just saying...

capcomeback · Mar 28, 2014

bara1968 said:
I do not want to repeat, but let me remind you the followings-

1. One of the reasons why judging at Sochi is questionable is the wrongfully judged BV. Yuna's should have been higher considering her stsq lev(should have been lv4 rather than lv3) and Sot's should have been LOT lower considering her stsq lv, under rotated 3T. Also she had flutz, which should have negated GOE she got. If the tech panel did not overlook Sot's mistakes, those BV difference and TES differences became pretty much coming down to 0. So BV argument does not work.

Even without considering above, The total BV(SP LP) difference is somewhat 1 point or so. If you consider above on top of that, again, BV argument works on behalf of Yuna, not against.

About jump difficulty- Yuna was the only one among top 3 who did three 3lz and two 3F in total with two 3Lz3T combinations.

2. Quality of skating, cleanness of course matter a LOT to determine the champion, since they directly and definitely affect PCS. If Chan was cleaner than Hanyu, he would have won easily. Sochi judging was very bad since no matter how good veterans were, Sot's PCS was virtual tie -the best score of the night, with unrefined skating skills, tentative movement even with errors!

3. Yuna did have lots of interesting choreo details in her program, from the beginning to the sensational ending pose.

4. I don't see her crossovers problematic at all. She did cover LOT more ice than any other ladies. I think that you should measure crossover/ice-coverage to be fair. The skater who does not generate same speed as hers or does not cover the ice as much as her would easily have less crossovers. Yes Sot had more transitions in between but they were not significant nor specifically difficult either.

:agree:

Technically, Adelina's mistakes/over-valued stsq level and Yuna's under-evaluated stsq level, should have wiped out Adelina's lead over Yuna (and made her a lot closer to Carolina). This does not even go into the GOE inflation. With all of that scored properly and if her Components had been scored fairly in both the SP and the FS, Adelina should have gotten bronze.

South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

Meoima

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Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

winky97

Meoima

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chalk5

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Meoima

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Olympia

Meoima

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chalk5

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Meoima

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