Coach Rundown

BlackPack · Apr 16, 2014

TheGrandSophy said:
That is indeed very interesting, nimi. Thanks. Orser and Tarasova are not regarded as developmental coaches then? Who are?

Machiko Yamada coached Midori Ito since childhood. Linda Leaver coached Boitano since he was 8 despite critics demanding him to "switch" to a more politically savvy coach. He ignored it. But he was Boitano and his skating spoke for himself. Christy Ness coached Kristi Yamaguchi since childhood.

Currently, Kori Ade has coached Jason Brown since he was 4 or 5. Michael Huth took care of Carolina Kostner since she was quite young. Carroll also coached Bowman since childhood, until Bowman became an unmanageable adult.

I think Elena Vorodezova/Buianova helped a few young Russian/former USSR Republic skaters, i.e. Denis Ten who later on moved to more prominent coaches and better facilities usually in North America. She is of course the coach of new OGM Sotnikova.

Mishin of course...

nimi · Apr 16, 2014

I think Utako Nagamitsu trained Daisuke Takahashi since he was a young boy. Later on, Daisuke went on to become Morozov's student, but then they had a falling out and Dai went back to his old coach again. Finally, he and Morozov were reunited, but Dai kept Nagamitsu as his primary coach.

Priscilla Hill was Johnny Weir's coach from the beginning, and until the end of 2005-2006 season. Weir was her first student who made it to the Olympics (Torino). She went on to coach e.g. Ashley Wagner for a couple of years, until Ashley switched to John Nicks.

NYscorp6 · Apr 16, 2014

Carlo and Christa Fassi coached so many champions, I also loved that they took such great care of Jill and Nicole. Mr. Nicks also coached many champions and has a soft spot in his heart for Sasha which is special. Tamara Moskvina is another favorite of mine. I also must acknowledge Marina for coaching the first US Olympic Ice Dance Champions (& V/M as well).

lady_bee · Apr 16, 2014

I would like to add Nobuo Sato on the list.
The gentleman doesn't have Olympic Gold medalists,
but still has lots of great skaters, Mao, Kozuka..., and his daugter Yuka.

jkun · Apr 16, 2014

Orser is definitely the most prominent coach right now, in terms of his current and recent roster of skaters and their accomplishments.

akoko · Apr 16, 2014

chapis said:
For me his coreography is the most annoying, I think the only good thing about him like coach is that he motivates very well may be. And Their students with good results I think could to do better with another coach, you know, his students were simply good. He did nothing with Javier and Amodio.

That may be true in most cases, but I love Takahashi's Lake Swan and some others.

LRK · Apr 16, 2014

BlackPack said:
Orser achieved much more success (2 OGM) in a much shorter time frame than Carroll and Tarasova. Tarasova's strength was finding a skater's special magic or IT factor as well as giving the skater the necessary political clout to at least be noticed and be judged more favorably. Tarasova is really the only coach who has coached or choreographed for all disciplines. However, based on Tarasova's more recent comments, she seems to be going senile while Orser and Carroll are still sharp.

Tarasova was able to cross disciplines in that her students were already masters of their craft when they came to her. G&P were already the fastest dancers ever known to ice dancing at the time. K&P were already artistic and already had OG medals under their belts. Yagudin already did thousands of quads when he switched to her. Furthermore, it was about leadership and delegating to the right specialists. Essentially, Tarasova took on students who were previously developed by other coaches who were lesser known, had less political clout, but had more technical skills.

Orser was also very close to becoming OGM twice himself, but alas, the Canadian curse, while Carroll and Tarasova were never the top elite skaters. I believe they both were on the podiums in their nationals, but they were not great competitors and thus chose coaching in a relatively young age.

If you watched The Skating Lesson's interview with Frank, you will hear that he didn't care for politicking which may have cost Fratianne the OGM.

Like Carroll with Kwan, Orser also had a major star of a pupil (Yuna) leave him and left the skating community dumbfounded.

I read a quite exhaustive interview with Tarasova a few years back - alas that I do not recall exactly when, or where it's to be found - in which I believe she said she was injured and therefore had to retire early as a competitior. I bellieve (but am by no means sure as my memory is exceptionally shoddy) that she was initially devastated, before finding other ways to pursue her love of the sport.

s_parks · Apr 16, 2014

Gotta add Yao Bin to pairs. Shen/Zhao, Pang/Tong, etc...

BlackPack · Apr 16, 2014

LRK said:
I read a quite exhaustive interview with Tarasova a few years back - alas that I do not recall exactly when, or where it's to be found - in which I believe she said she was injured and therefore had to retire early as a competitior. I bellieve (but am by no means sure as my memory is exceptionally shoddy) that she was initially devastated, before finding other ways to pursue her love of the sport.

Yes, according to Wikipedia she sustained a career-ending injury at age 18. However, my point was that she wasn't a champion or at least she wasn't considered the top gun, rightly or wrongly. She was a medalist at Nationals and Europeans, however. Orser, however, was a World Champion and came very close to being OGM twice.

LRK · Apr 16, 2014

BlackPack said:
Yes, according to Wikipedia she sustained a career-ending injury at age 18. However, my point was that she wasn't a champion or at least she wasn't considered the top gun, rightly or wrongly. She was a medalist at Nationals and Europeans, however. Orser, however, was a World Champion and came very close to being OGM twice.

Oh, my comment was not to dispute anything you said, especially not trying to make any Tarasova Vs Orser point - as that would be very silly of me considering how little I know! No, merely as an addendum, if you will, about Tarasova choosing coaching at an early age. I believe that decision was forced upon her. But, I'm sorry if I came across as trying to contradict your points - as that was not my intention at all.

TheGrandSophy · Apr 16, 2014

Very interesting so far. Thanks.

So, any instances where a coach has made a real success of unpromising material?

Or any people you would really like to see change coach, to whom and what do you think this would achieve i.e. a skater who needs more help with something specific and isn't getting it from their current coach etc?

snowflakebeautiful · Apr 16, 2014

TheGrandSophy said:
So, any instances where a coach has made a real success of unpromising material?

~ For me this question is a little hard to answer just because of the wording maybe? Imo, coaches can make successes of diamonds in the rough or individuals that have some decent basics and a good work ethic. (I think natural talent also helps...even if it's unrefined - but hard work can get people places too, even without a super inclination for being good at something.)
I guess when I hear "unpromising material," I think of individuals that lack talent and don't have great basics or work ethic either...but, I may totally be misinterpretating your meaning!

So sorry if I am.

If I were to say that there was a coach who maybe found a diamond in the rough, I think it could go to Marina Zoueva (and Igor maybe?)? She sort of took D/W and transformed them into a team that were aesthetically appealing and could sell their ice dance story to judges. I know before she had them that they looked quite a bit different than they now do (I hate commenting on looks....but in this case it really did help)... And she worked with Charlie on emoting and such. And before she got them, judges made comments that D didn't have the right look and/or the right height/build - but she saw potential despite their differences to standard ice dance teams; and they've been super successful.
Marina (and Igor?) may not be the best examples of this, but she did well in this instance.

Or any people you would really like to see change coach, to whom and what do you think this would achieve i.e. a skater who needs more help with something specific and isn't getting it from their current coach etc?

Now on the other hand, I don't think Marina knows exactly what to do choreographically for the Shibs.... So, I feel like in this instance, she's maybe not helping them reach their full potential?
(But this one is hard for me to judge because I don't feel like sibling teams often don't reach their full potential scoring-wise. I always loved the Kerrs...but they never seemed to be able to really get there either, just my opinion.)

BlackPack · Apr 17, 2014

TheGrandSophy said:
Very interesting so far. Thanks.

So, any instances where a coach has made a real success of unpromising material?

Or any people you would really like to see change coach, to whom and what do you think this would achieve i.e. a skater who needs more help with something specific and isn't getting it from their current coach etc?

I truly believe in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon." There were many skaters who were considered lame. Maria Butyrskaya was told to quit, and yet she became the oldest female World Champion. Never say never. You never know who rises and falls. When I&K were still like 12, people were so impressed with them that they were predicted to be OGM and World Champs over others. Look at what happened. I read Ilia Kulik was like 4 or 5 when he started skating and couldn't skate to save his life. Yet he was determined and became OGM with one of the purest edges and jumping technique ever. I think the most successful skaters were the ones who weren't the best but were merely and respectably talented. The most talented ones often took advantage of their God-given abilities and rode on the ease of their abilities; many of them lacked the work ethic and discipline because they didn't need these skills to win things in the beginning. The ones who had to figure things out, problem-solve, and learn to rectify their weaknesses (Meryl Davis), and work hard were the ones who developed the skills that helped them navigate the game.

BlackPack · Apr 17, 2014

LRK said:
Oh, my comment was not to dispute anything you said, especially not trying to make any Tarasova Vs Orser point - as that would be very silly of me considering how little I know! No, merely as an addendum, if you will, about Tarasova choosing coaching at an early age. I believe that decision was forced upon her. But, I'm sorry if I came across as trying to contradict your points - as that was not my intention at all.

:thumbsup:

Sandpiper · Apr 17, 2014

I think the most successful skaters were the ones who weren't the best but were merely and respectably talented. The most talented ones often took advantage of their God-given abilities and rode on the ease of their abilities; many of them lacked the work ethic and discipline because they didn't need these skills to win things in the beginning. The ones who had to figure things out, problem-solve, and learn to rectify their weaknesses (Meryl Davis), and work hard were the ones who developed the skills that helped them navigate the game.

I find this an intriguing theory, but I wonder if you could give some examples: Which skaters do you feel were less talented, but worked hard and accomplished much? Which ones wasted their talent? And of course, there are many skaters (imo) who are talented and hard-working. I'm not sure if talent breeds laziness; I'm guessing, more likely, it's 'cause we never hear about those who are untalented and lazy, 'cause they've gotten nowhere.

BlackPack · Apr 17, 2014

Sandpiper said:
I find this an intriguing theory, but I wonder if you could give some examples: Which skaters do you feel were less talented, but worked hard and accomplished much? Which ones wasted their talent? And of course, there are many skaters (imo) who are talented and hard-working. I'm not sure if talent breeds laziness; I'm guessing, more likely, it's 'cause we never hear about those who are untalented and lazy, 'cause they've gotten nowhere.

Let me clarify that any elite skater probably works very hard compared to the average person, but with so much competition, working hard isn't always enough. You need the right coaches and choreographers, luck, and support from the Federations and judges. It's also how you train. You can also train blindly 8 hours a day and see no progress with no vision and strategy.

Less talented, but sufficiently talented, hard-working, and had good guidance from coaches: Cappellini and Lanotte, this might get me flack but I'd say Davis and White, Shizuka Arakawa, Lysacek

Very naturally talented but didn't accomplish much as expected due to lesser work ethic/discipline and dramas: Bowman, Bobek, Weir (although he did work hard later, he didn't have the coaches who designed the COP-friendly programs), I&K, Baiul (though she did win OGM and a World title, she is frequently on the lists of "wasted talents" and "Weakest OGM")

There are a century's worth of skaters that can be used as examples but that's all I can muster at the moment

Sandpiper · Apr 17, 2014

Definitely agree with the first paragraph. Quality over quantity goes for training, like it goes for most things in life. Imo, making the right decisions at the right time triumphs just working hard.

I agree with most of the examples, from my limited knowledge of those skaters. I do think, for instance, Baiul did pretty well considering her circumstances. Yeah, she didn't accomplish as much as her talent allowed. But her talent was undermined more by things she couldn't control, imo. (Then again, maybe I'm giving her more leeway than I should because I love her skating).

I've heard this before about Johnny. Was he really that talented? Other than starting late and still succeeding, what's the indication that he's more talented than other middle-pack skaters?

(Sorry if I'm bombarding you with too many questions)

nimi · Apr 17, 2014

Well, having your first skating lesson at 12 and reportedly doing an axel at your very first practice... If that's not natural talent, then what is?

If you look at his early skates as a junior, you can see the same kind of natural ease and movement on ice as with Hanyu in his junior days. (At least that's my impression). Not many coltish junior skaters have that.

IMO Hanyu is a pretty unique case because he has both the natural talent & artistic sensibility AND strong competitive drive & nerve - kinda like Weir meets Plushenko or something...

Sophie-Anna · Apr 17, 2014

You've mentioned all greatest coaches but I just want to mentione Mr. Nicks. I know he's not so good for technique and not so famous as some others but he has got many US champions and some world class skaters. You shouldn't agree with me but I really appreciate him as a coach. For example Ashley Wagner has improved a lot on her overall presentation when she moved to him. Also Sasha Cohen had got beautiful skating and lines even in very young age. He also seemed very calm always time when his skaters performed.

TheGrandSophy · Apr 17, 2014

BlackPack said:
Let me clarify that any elite skater probably works very hard compared to the average person, but with so much competition, working hard isn't always enough. You need the right coaches and choreographers, luck, and support from the Federations and judges. It's also how you train. You can also train blindly 8 hours a day and see no progress with no vision and strategy.

Less talented, but sufficiently talented, hard-working, and had good guidance from coaches: Cappellini and Lanotte, this might get me flack but I'd say Davis and White, Shizuka Arakawa, Lysacek

Very naturally talented but didn't accomplish much as expected due to lesser work ethic/discipline and dramas: Bowman, Bobek, Weir (although he did work hard later, he didn't have the coaches who designed the COP-friendly programs), I&K, Baiul (though she did win OGM and a World title, she is frequently on the lists of "wasted talents" and "Weakest OGM")

There are a century's worth of skaters that can be used as examples but that's all I can muster at the moment

That's really interesting. Thank you.

May I ask, as someone with no real technical knowledge, what Meryl Davis' shortcomings are/were? And was White similar or more naturally talented, in your opinion? The programmes I have seen of them I have been able to admire but never love. Obviously many love them and they have been tremendously successful, but they never drew me in, funnily enough, like some other ice dance couples have with their programmes. Anyway that is neither here nor there. I would be interested on the technical side to understand more.

Coach Rundown

BlackPack

nimi

NYscorp6

lady_bee

jkun

akoko

LRK

s_parks

BlackPack

LRK

TheGrandSophy

snowflakebeautiful

BlackPack

BlackPack

Sandpiper

BlackPack

Sandpiper

nimi

Sophie-Anna

TheGrandSophy

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