2014 Nebelhorn Trophy

So happy to see Kavaguti/Smirnov back with good programs! I really wish he wouldn't try to do that silly thing at the end of the long lift in the LP where he tries to hold his free leg out, though.

Jason Brown's LP could be good but the sound effects didn't all work and it needs the spins and footwork to be more with the music.

Alena Leonova made a nice try but the spins ruin the programs.

Everything else - not worth commenting on.

Blades of Passion said:

Jason Brown's LP could be good but the sound effects didn't all work and it needs the spins and footwork to be more with the music.

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I think the sound effects add more drama and I kinda like it. It's true that the footwork near the end of the program (about 2/5 part of it) were kinda off, but given the fact that it's still early in the season, maybe that part will look better as the season goes.
I don't like his SP this year much, though.

Mrs. P said:

If you go to this page: http://new.livestream.com/accounts/10053677/events/3397094/videos, you will be able to access all videos in HD and see the bargraph again! Plus it's easier to search for videos there.

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Thanks so much!

Mathman said:

Actually, it would be cool if Madison and Evan changed their names to Madison Shock and Norman Bates.

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Madison and Shower Scenes. Typical

Mathman said:

Actually, it would be cool if Madison and Evan changed their names to Madison Shock and Norman Bates.

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They could do a show with the British junior couple Jacob Payne and Lilah Fear!


http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00014950.htm

Oh priceless

dorispulaski said:

They could do a show with the British junior couple Jacob Payne and Lilah Fear!


http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00014950.htm

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moon said:

Alexander Johnson. Now here is a young man that can skate. I know that everyone loves Jason Browns joie de vivre but Alexander is smooth and performs every bit as much but I feel in a more mature and refined way. Marvelous blade work. I will be keeping an eye on this one. The US is lucky to have these two.

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Jason is a favorite of mine but so is Alexander but I don't think a lot of people know him. He surprised at nationals but then got injured and took the whole Olympic year off.

lavender said:

Jason is a favorite of mine but so is Alexander but I don't think a lot of people know him. He surprised at nationals but then got injured and took the whole Olympic year off.

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I like Alexander Johnson too! I think Nebelhorn was a good start and I look forward to see his progress this season!

Mathman said:

Actually, it would be cool if Madison and Evan changed their names to Madison Shock and Norman Bates.

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Oh god what have I done with that little typo They will never let me ask them stuff again if they hear about that

Anyways, I wanted to thank everyone for the nice PM´s and posts here and ya it would be awesome if I might see some of you next year at Oberstdorf

Now that's the Brezina that I knew. Loved him and his potential in juniors and then he came to seniors and became my bathroom break. I just couldn't stand any of his programs.

lavender said:

Now that's the Brezina that I knew. Loved him and his potential in juniors and then he came to seniors and became my bathroom break. I just couldn't stand any of his programs.

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I thought the "Japanese Kodo Drums" was quite good...but the rest were a bit meh. It seems like he's made great strides in his artistry.

lavender said:

Now that's the Brezina that I knew. Loved him and his potential in juniors and then he came to seniors and became my bathroom break. I just couldn't stand any of his programs.

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gallavich said:

I thought the "Japanese Kodo Drums" was quite good...but the rest were a bit meh. It seems like he's made great strides in his artistry.

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I thought it was a great improvement from past seasons, though I still think they're still a bit empty...I hope he'll add some transitions or some in-betweens as the season progresses.

gallavich said:

I thought the "Japanese Kodo Drums" was quite good...but the rest were a bit meh. It seems like he's made great strides in his artistry.

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I agree with Mrs. P that there's improvement for me since I was actually able to watch the whole program. Now I feel there's that potential that I use to see. I hope it keeps going.


No wonder I love Alexander. He reminds me a lot of Jeff Buttle. While watching his short program 'Jeff Buttle' popped into my head.

Madison Chock & Evan Bates‘ FD:

Despite other people’s opinion I like the dress. That white part gives the dress a little bit of playfulness, funny mood and even naughtiness (in good meaning) I hear in music.

Great choice of music. People like Gershwin’s music, it brings good mood and it also works very well on judges. This could be perfect choice for World Champs in Boston next season, where fans on the stadium would start to aplaud with first tones of music.

American in Paris music is playfull, joyfull, a little bit flirtatious kind of music. And with such dancer like Gene Kelly….I was so curious what will Sphilband do with such theme….I imagined something like Madison & Evan transforming into Gene Kelly & Leslie Caron and push their limits on the ice….well, the result is not what I expected.

First of all, I don’t understand what is the program about…???…Gershwin composed this and told that he wanted to explain the feelings of the American walking in Paris streets and looking at French athmosphere.

But there is also the musical where American artist – painter Gene Kelly falls in love with a Parissienne Lisa….OK, in opening part of the program Evan touches Madison’s face and this opening part of choreo is another romantic one where two love each other (like Madison & Evan‘s FD from past three years)…and then…I don’t see anything what would explain the music or story…just moves and moves and big smiles to judges and to each other…

In both Gershwin’s idea and musical story it is THE MAN who playes the main role, not woman…it is the American who discovers life in Paris in Gershwin’s eyes or it is Gene Kelly who dances the main character. Evan Bates has no choreo which would remind anything of that and once again the whole programs is made for Madison.

Technical side:
Number of big jumps made by Madison: 9
Small hoops made by both of them: 24

Twizzles with no speed going into it - no spacing there…no synchro in first set of Twizles - why judges gave four times +2 and once +3 for element without good synchro and with no speed?

Lifts are nice like always. First lift looks new to them, but it is another version of “Eiffel Tower“ looking like lift which many couples did past years. But the couple executes it lovely.

The movement before the first lift when Evan lifts Madison…there is a rule that says - "A brief movement in which both skates of one of the partners leave the ice with support by the other partner and the lifted partner is not sustained in the air shall not be considered as a Dance Lift" - so the movement should be taken like transition – another jump...but in my opinion this movement looks more like rotational lift. Another problematic part is an illegal movement in lift - "hand/arm which is used for support or balancing only or which touches any part of the body of the lifted partner is sustained by the lifting partner higher than his head for more than 2 seconds". …Evan’s right hand looks to be above his head, so it is illegal element, I think.

Madison told: “All our lifts are new and that the long time success of Tessa and Scott & Charly and Maryl helped us all a lot”!

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Second lift is a copy of the lift from Doctor Zhivago‘s FD in 2012/13 season and last lift is a combo of last two lifts from Les Miserables FD in 2013/14 season.

How could the second curved lift got Level 4? During change of pose Evan put his free leg on the ice and while travelling down Madison’s right boot also touched the ice. Why they got GOE +2, +1, +1, 0, -1 for this – it was an obvious mistake.

Overall rather slower skating, no change in speed coming into last fast part, but it is the beginning of the season and the couple is maybe in trouble with physical condition yet.

Transitions had many jumps and hoops and open “pair“ skating, BUT what I was sooo glad to see…I saw dance holds during Transitions – there were five times Waltz holds for one-two seconds, one Killian hold – this is an improvement, just continue in this.

Edges moderate.

Sphilband visibly noticed bad work of Evan’s free leg, especially during step sequences…but instead of correcting the mistake (what I would expect from somebody who is taken like great technical coach)…he changed the choreo and made some steps and turns with bent free leg in second part of the turn, and not only for Evan, but for Madison as well…so another hiding of weaknesses…wise?...not really, because:
1) bent leg during second part of turn means no work of free leg there, so the couple gains absolutely no speed from this turn, which leads to very very slow step sequences where only toe steps and jumps helps not to stand on one place…
2) thanks to no work of free leg the couple is not able to execute the arc properly
3) edges are even less moderate then normally
4) thanks to those “changes“ in choreo, even Madison looses proper work of free leg.

You can’t do correct turns and difficult turns if you don’t know how to work with your skating and free leg…this is BASIC and you can never be a good technician while you don’t know this properly…

How Sphilband wants to persuade people that this couple (thanks to Evan) really deserves over 8 in Skating Skills and is really contender for World Medal taking Evan’s technique seriously, I don’t know.

Kaitlyn Weaver & Andrew Poje’s FD:

Number of jumps: 9
Number of small hoops: 25

Choreography and timing of elements are very often nicely matching the music nuances, that is important.

Twizzles from no speed, poor cover of the ice thanks to it, but nice and difficult position on the first set – the couples got +2 four times and +1 once (lower GOE then out of synchro Madison & Evan).

Couple improved in glading a little bit and I can see a slight improvement in work of Andrew’s free leg. Edges rather moderate.

Music parts are not so fast, but the couple is not matching the differences in dynamics of the music yet. Probably thanks to faster music number of hoops and jumps increased to match the flow and speed the music, which I don’t take like the best idea thanks to Ice Dance cathegory where edges and Skating Skills should play the major role – hoops have nothing to do with Skating Skills.

Transitions are more difficult than in Chock & Bates FD, more close positions, also close holds, not usual hand in hand holds, that is nice.

Overall speed, dynamics and expression during whole dance should be improved during the season (I expect it will be).

I must remind Bobrova & Soloviev’s Vivaldi, where music parts were much faster and the choreography more difficult and the couple was able to keep high speed during the program (but they fell thanks to big difficulty in choreo, that’s true).

I think that Kaitlyn & Andrew‘s dance can be a great program, not that most favourite program for fans maybe, but I like it. And if the couple will be able to improve in technique and expression during the season, it will push them to higher level of dancing abilities.

Kaitlin Hawayek & Jean-Luc Baker’s FD:

Number of jumps: 3
Number of small hoops: 12

Why are girls able to work properly with free leg and boys not…well, Jean-Luc looks to be three steps above Andrew and ten steps above Evan in this “free leg trouble“…his free leg is not fully extended, but at least I can say the leg is ALMOST extended – there is a visible effort to work with free leg.

The couple has good Skating Skills. They need to improve work of knees, work of both upper and lower body – muscles more strengthened and all movements should be finished…which is not happening always. Overall the couple is technically good and if they will work hard I believe that in future THIS will be the couple who can take close to technical abilities of top Russians dancers (B&S, I&Z&K&S).

Kaitlin & Jean-Luc have visibly better Skating Skills then Madison & Evan, but in judges eyes they got about 0,88 less in FD and more then one point less in SD…even with new judging experiment…this only proves that no system is able to judge properly the real qualities not looking at names and previous results of the couples.

I am not sure about not touching sequence where both skaters are doing “mirror“ steps – it looks interesting in both H&B and W&P’s programs, but even here I would prefer more “dance“ and less “pair cathegory“ choreography in any part of program.

Music is very nice and I am glad that they didn’t use Prokofjev or Tchaikovski’s version of the story.

What is big positive (and I guess that maybe it was one of main reasons why Krylova & Camerlengo chose this composer and this story) – Kaitlin and Jean-Luc don’t need to be adult and mature people skating to it. R & J’s story is much more about teenage kids and about love which is more crazy and fresh, not about mature people who show the depth of their souls. So in comparison with SD where maturity is needed (and they are loosing a lot thanks to it), FD is fitting them in terms of age and thanks to I would say still “juniorish“ limitations.

They borrowed lift from Tessa & Scott (opening lift) and all other lifts with positions I saw performed by other couples, but they are performing it nicely.

Twizzles from low speed, but with good synchro – why they got GOE - two times 0, once +1 and +2 twice?…while Madison & Evan were slower and didn’t had synchro, but got higher GOE?

Expression of the program is not strong yet. Something is missing for me. I feel like they are both skating the choreography with the best effort they have, but they are not reacting to each other, they don’t express tender feelings to each other throught their movements. It is like they would be skating beside each other with glass wall between them, but they need to look like they are skating for each other instead.

Nella Zhiganshina & Alexander Gazsi’s FD:

The couple is known for crazy ideas….so trying to expect anything else would be “crazy“.

Technique:
The couple is problematic to judge in this term….they had some nice moments and then suddenly they execute something what proves that they have a serious lack of basic technique.

I liked that they had some really nice edges in diagonal step sequence and in the first part of circular step sequence.

What I mind is their permanent (probably whole career lasting) out of synchro. I am able to understand that our new couples will look for each other during dance, but Nella & Alex skate together since 2005.

Their twizzles are always a fight, especially for Alex, but what is one of their basic problems is the lack of fluency in every twizzles they have. Instead of fluent move, there is almost always a feeling that their twizzles are a number of three turns done one after the another with jumping knee action. That is a mistake. Continuous move in Twizzles is essential and this couple is fighting with this for years and it is still not good.

The spacing in Twizzles between partners is more than two arm length (I would say almost four arm length) which means reduction about one level.

Their transitions are easy to describe – during all “between the elements“ parts – there were only many and many cross-overs, jumps, few three turns, many and many two-footed skating or two-footed standing on one place and one mohawk by Nella, open holds.…they got 6,25 for Transitions – this is too high for such transitions.

Their upper body is bent forward for most of time, they have big spacing between each other (also in step sequences). Thanks to new changements in rules where a couple must skate close to each other 50% of time to get Performance/Execution mark from 4 to 4,75 points…Nella & Alex shouldn’t get higher that (in reality they got 8,17 points).

Overall the couple is not technically improving, I would say that they are even slightly worse than they were in 2011/12 season. I don’t think that 7,58 point for Skating Skills should be represented by these skills…

The dance itself:
Why Lambiel copied the throw jump from I&K’s Swan Lake?

Why Swan Lake? Just one season after Swan Lake won Olympic Bronze medal…it only leads to a straight comparison with I&K and especially comparison in gliding and skating skills is killing for Nella & Alex. So why?

While last season’s FD was fitting the couple well, I don’t take this years dance like a good choice yet. Not only because it is Swan Lake, but also because I think that Nella & Alex are too stiff skaters to be able to express such techno version of the music – just compare with Takahashi’s both steps sequences, how can he move with his body to Hip-Hop version of the Swan Lake - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=O4ItQq5q5x8#t=87
- for this kind of music I think it is quite important to move your whole body – it is something what Nella & Alex are not doing at all.

I agree with the couple that Ice Dance cathegory needs to be entertaining to be loved by fans more. I see that the couple is trying to create something what will take public attention and this is the most important thing for them. OK. Great to have such couple in the dancing field. But we have couples who are trying not only to come with original idea, but they also try to push themselves into better technique and more demanding programs.

For example Hurtado & Diaz – their Picasso was a great dance – more difficult than Nella & Alex’s programs and it had a soul, it was a little piece of art and kids were able to express the depth of the music – Nella & Alex skating their crazy programs were never so impressive in such difficult and deep music.

Just for comparison Nella & Alex got 8,17 points for Choreography and 7,50 points for Interpretentation of their Swan at Nebelhorn Trophy here….while H&D’s Picasso got 6,68 points for Choreography and 6,82 for Interpretation at World Champs.

sisinka, Thank you, thank you, thank you! You have pointed out many of the issues that I have never had the energy to write about or, have been too exasperated to write about. I know that our judges have been educated and have been in the sport long enough to be able to pick out the qualities and inadequacies of the team and of each team member. It would make it so much more interesting for spectators and more encouraging for the skaters if the teams were actually marked in a way that reflected what was shown on the ice. Great choreo , poor skills , mark it that way. Superb skaters but lack of transitions, mark it that way. Please!

sisinka, I know you detest Chock & Bates; however it would be utterly ridiculous to have a male dancer emulate a Gene Kelly role with extended ballet leg stylings. Here's how Kelly dances in American in Paris:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LvglHa_P9BA

Kelly tap dances. He has a loose-legged, round-shouldered style. His legs are always flexed at the knee. And unlike many ballet dancers, he is always spot-on the beat.

The movie's choreographer, Kelly himself, had Caron quite often use balletic leg extension and toe point to express the difference between Caron's French character and Kelly's American character.

In the long dance they do together:

http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop...gwowU&list=PLa-c-Wl6sCAJHBPNEaUy6gNRaLsnOUHmV


Ice dance is not ballet in any case. You can do a ballet program in ice dance, but you can also do many other types of dances. The origin of ice dance as a sport is in the ballroom.

An American in Paris is not a ballet, it is a modern dance piece with references to both tap and ballet genres.
So neither should any ice dance program to American in Paris be required to be a pure ballet or to look like one.


Another thing- Tessa & Scot and H&B both did cantilever curved lifts last year.. Jean Luc has used.that type of.lift since 2009 with his previous partner. other teams have used it too, in fact, I am fairly sure W&P have used it too.
H&B fall 2013 Amelie FD had it
http://m.youtube.com/?reload=7&rdm=19o74l781#/watch?v=majCVtDmLPs

sisinka said:

Kaitlin Hawayek & Jean-Luc Baker’s FD:

if they will work hard I believe that in future THIS will be the couple who can take close to technical abilities of top Russians dancers (B&S, I&Z&K&S).

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I'm curious. Why hold up the Russian teams as the standard against which others should be measured? I&Z and S&K are unknown quantities at this time and the results of B&S have been respectable, but not outstanding.