Joshua Farris articles re 2015 Worlds

apgold · Mar 19, 2015

I'm assuming that soul = sole (as the sole of his boot), no?

I listened to the conference this AM. I liked his honesty but he has to stop saying "If I'm being honest..." b/c it implies he's lying otherwise, lol.

I've said this before, but I really like how open he is about working with his sports psychologist to help him overcome confidence and mental issues. He's a work in progress who can only improve. I liked that he's looking to next year's Worlds to be a podium threat so he's setting goals for himself.

Sandpiper · Mar 19, 2015

Mrs. P said:
The gap is 8.37 points in the 4CC FS.

Jason lost approximately 1.3 points on a spin he usually gets level 4 on, along with the loss on 3.18 points between BV and GOE on the 3Z< in his combo. That's about 4.48 points. The gap is down to 3.89 points.

Josh lost about -1.00 in GOE on the quad, so the that puts the gap if both go clean (at current GOE levels from 4CC) back up at 4.89 points.

Josh does have the overall advantage in the FS if both are clean, but I don't think it's an insurmountable gap.

No gap is insurmountable. But the question is clean to clean, and I'd be very, very surprised if a clean Jason beat a clean Josh right now.

silverlake22 · Mar 19, 2015

Just to clarify, Josh's PB SP score at 4CCs was 84.29, not 85+ like other posters mentioned. I think he can get to 86+ with a good skate in the SP at Worlds, but right now, Jason's PB SP score is still 2 points higher. Josh can make up ground in the FS though for sure. If they both skate clean, I would assume they would get very comparable, high PCS.

TontoK · Mar 19, 2015

Sandpiper said:
No gap is insurmountable. But the question is clean to clean, and I'd be very, very surprised if a clean Jason beat a clean Josh right now.

Agree. Josh's 3A alone would make the difference.

I don't know how they've scored GOE head-to-head by the same panel, but I think it's pretty self-evident that Josh is a better jumper.

ice coverage · Mar 19, 2015

silverlake22 said:
Just to clarify, Josh's PB SP score at 4CCs was 84.29, not 85+ like other posters mentioned. I think he can get to 86+ with a good skate in the SP at Worlds, but right now, Jason's PB SP score is still 2 points higher. Josh can make up ground in the FS though for sure. If they both skate clean, I would assume they would get very comparable, high PCS.

Because you like precision

:

Jason's SP PB in fact is 1.71 higher than Josh's.

Li'Kitsu · Mar 19, 2015

TontoK said:
Agree. Josh's 3A alone would make the difference.

I don't know how they've scored GOE head-to-head by the same panel, but I think it's pretty self-evident that Josh is a better jumper.

Not something numbers are supporting so far @Joshs 3A alone making the difference. Josh's average on his successful international 3As GOE (all from 4CC) is 1,38. Jasons is 0,66. That's only 0,72 points - how is that alone making the difference?

And while I agree clean Josh would outscore clean Jason in the LP, I'm sure they'd be pretty tied in the SP. Josh gets the 3A, Jason the spins. Josh has better SS, Jason better TR. Minus the quad, they look pretty equal to me.

Scovies · Mar 19, 2015

TontoK said:
Agree. Josh's 3A alone would make the difference.

I don't know how they've scored GOE head-to-head by the same panel, but I think it's pretty self-evident that Josh is a better jumper.

The other day I was re-watching a bunch of the men's LPs from 4CC (seriously, how great was that competition? So many awesome performances), and while I do think Josh is generally a more talented jumper than Jason, I think you might be selling Jason's jump abilities a bit short. Josh's 3A is pretty much the 3rd-best on the planet behind Hanyu and Han Yan, but as L'Kitsu pointed out, the GOE difference between him and Jason isn't that large, and I'd give a slight edge to Jason when it comes to quality on the lutz, flip, and loop.

Of course, if Josh lands a clean 4T (I can't find the link, but there was a Vine of him doing one in practice at Nationals that was basically Hanyu-level perfect) the point is pretty much moot. I just want both of them to skate well. They both came so close to having two perfect skates in one competition at Nationals, and I'd love for them (and Adam!) to deliver on their full potential next week.

TontoK · Mar 19, 2015

Li'Kitsu said:
Not something numbers are supporting so far @Joshs 3A alone making the difference. Josh's average on his successful international 3As GOE (all from 4CC) is 1,38. Jasons is 0,66. That's only 0,72 points - how is that alone making the difference?

And while I agree clean Josh would outscore clean Jason in the LP, I'm sure they'd be pretty tied in the SP. Josh gets the 3A, Jason the spins. Josh has better SS, Jason better TR. Minus the quad, they look pretty equal to me.

Either you're over-thinking, or I'm over-simplifying.

My point is this: In my opinion, if they are both clean, Josh wins by virtue of GOE in jumps. I picked the 3A because I think it is particularly magnificent.

msteach3 · Mar 19, 2015

I can't help but wonder if Josh tries out the quad during SP practices next week and it goes well... Maybe he might sneak it in? Unlikely I know, but let's not decide quite yet what his placement might be.

Mrs. P · Mar 19, 2015

FWIW:
In the 4CC FS: Jason earned 5.5 +GOE in jumps vs. 5.07 for Josh. That takes into account that Jason earned -GOE for his 3Z<-1L-3S combo and Josh's -GOE for two jumps (4T and 3S).

And just looking at apples to apples on jumps where they were both clean on.

Josh 3A (solo): 2.00
Jason 3A (solo): 0.71

Josh 3A-2T-2Lo: 0.57
Jason 3A-2T: 0.14

Josh 3Z (solo): 0.6
Jason 3Z (solo): 1.3

Josh 3F-3T: 0.8
Jason 3F-3T: 1.50

Josh 3L (solo): 0.6
Jason 3L (solo): 0.8

I agree that the harder jumps has come more naturally to Josh, always have, but that has played out namely that Josh has an advantage on base value, which was the case at 4CC.

Josh: 65.82
Jason: 58.15.

Josh's superior 3A is also an advantage because by the scale of values, Josh gets more GOE on it (a +3 3A gets you 3 extra points in GOE while a +3 on a 3Z gets 2.1 extra points).

As seen above, Jason actually gets decent GOE outside of the 3A, especially for his flip and lutz.

Jason will not do the quad at Worlds, so Josh will again have the advantage in the FS in BV. So Jason will have to be absolutely perfect and do even better than he did at 4CC (i.e.no 3Z< or silly spin errors).

Scovies · Mar 19, 2015

Thanks for illustrating that, Mrs. P. In the SP where neither of them do a quad, I give Jason a slight edge in scoring potential even though I prefer Josh's program. Josh has that glorious 3A, but Jason's 3A is solid enough in the SP, and his 3F-3T and 3Z are stronger, IMO. And Jason has the edge on spins. Josh's spins are very good (that last position on his final camel spin is ridiculous), but I think Jason is the best in the world of the top men in that regard. Josh clearly has the edge in the LP with the quad, but he has to execute everything well to make it happen.

Granted, all of our discussions assume perfect performances from everybody, and perfect performances have been in short supply all season. Who, out of the medal contenders, has had a perfect LP so far? Machida's out, but his LP at Skate America was close (aside from a doubled 3A). Denis Ten almost got there at 4CC except for a slightly wonky 3A. Mura did it at Skate Canada, but he doesn't have the PCS to contend with a relatively clean Hanyu or Fernandez. Same with Murakami at NHK.

I'm getting nervous just thinking about this. Worlds could be so freaking good if everyone brings it. I have a so many skaters I'm invested in at this point -- Hanyu, Mura, Ten, Farris, Brown, Rippon, Murakami, Misha, Voronov (as silly as his programs are, I like him in spite of myself), Han Yan... can we just give medals to all of them?

StitchMonkey · Mar 19, 2015

Scovies said:
can we just give medals to all of them?

This could be fun. If you take small medals into account, I wonder what the max number of medals that we could mathematically do.

Blades of Passion · Mar 19, 2015

That would be 9, if somehow 3 people who bombed the SP did amazing in the LP and 3 people who did amazing in the SP performed poorly the LP, leaving the actual medalists as 3 people who did well in both segments but were not top 3 in either segment.

Sandpiper · Mar 20, 2015

Don't kill me for saying this (I like them both), but I don't really understand why Jason should get higher GOE for his non-axel triples than Josh?

With the exception of that Nationals SP--where he indeed had excellent spring and a certain airiness to his jumps--I don't really think Jason's triples look top caliber. They're sometimes a bit low and eeked out, in fact. He does have difficult entries but why can't we just reward that on the TR mark?

Granted, Josh's triples aren't incredible either, but he does have one of the best 3As in the business. His spins are a little slower than Jason's, but it's not a huge difference. If both go clean in the SP, I'd hand it to Josh on the basis of his superior program. There is magic in "Give Me Love", while Jason's program is fun and well-performed... but not magical.

I actually think Jason has the superior LP, but the difference there is covered by Josh's quad.

Li'Kitsu · Mar 20, 2015

I don't agree that Jasons triples are "low and eeked out". Not if he hits them well, and that's what we're talking about in an all clean scenario, aye? Sometimes that happens to him, but IMO that's a mistake happening like other guys popping their jumps or even falling. But I'd rather have someone getting a little short on rotation than landing on their butt, so why this is used against Jason and the quality of his jumps is a mystery to me.

About who has the better non-Axel triples... I'll remain with my boring "they're pretty equal" point of view. Both of them have good height and ice coverage, but not Hanyu/Han Yan levels. Jason has better transitions into his jumps, while Josh still has beautiful ones as well. Josh has a great air position, that makes his jumps look very secure and clean, but Jason isn't wild or loose in the air either. Both have good flow coming out, but again it's one of the points one could critizice compared to the other top jumpers. OTOH, both manage to make their jumps look like part of the choreo and perform them comapred to a lot of the more powerful jumpers. So I don't see why either one should pull ahead so far of the other in this regard.

karne · Mar 20, 2015

I think Joshua presents a clean, straight line in the air, with his legs tight and his arms tight, where on occasion Jason is a little more open. This makes Joshua's jumps look better from an aesthetic point of view. I do think Josh's edge jumps are better overall than Jason's - Axel, loop, and Salchow. Jason's loop and Salchow can look a little low at times. But Jason's jumps are certainly not tiny - anyone who says that has clearly not looked at the incredible size and distance of the triple flip, for example.

Joshua reminds me a lot of Plushy when he jumps - very straight, very secure, though I think he's a lot more of a confidence jumper. I think Josh also presents a lot more purity in his jumps - he doesn't clutter them up with Tanos, Rippons etc, he just presents the jump and lets its beauty and technical perfection speak for itself. That's not to say there's anything wrong with Jason's beautiful tanos - and actually, I was up in arms last year that his 2T with one arm behind his back wasn't getting higher scores.

I think perhaps the wrong perspective is being taken here. Isn't the US lucky, to have two young skaters of such outstanding talent that you can barely split them?

dorispulaski · Mar 20, 2015

When Jason is on, his jumps land on the beat, which adds a significant bump in impact on a viewer in the live audience. That feature does not always come across on tv and even less on livestream, because of failures in synching. He was uncanny Tt 2014 U.S.Nationals in both programs, and nearly as good about that feature at 2015 US Nationals.

He will always be apt to get a bit higher GOE on the jumps when is on like that than the jump itself might otherwise suggest. His 3F3t is particularly wonderful. And do recall that tano or Rippon arms is also a bump to GOE.

TMC · Mar 20, 2015

dorispulaski said:
When Jason is on, his jumps land on the beat, which adds a significant bump in impact on a viewer in the live audience. That feature does not always come across on tv and even less on livestream, because of failures in synching. He was uncanny Tt 2014 U.S.Nationals in both programs, and nearly as good about that feature at 2015 US Nationals.

He will always be apt to get a bit higher GOE on the jumps when is on like that than the jump itself might otherwise suggest. His 3F3t is particularly wonderful. And do recall that tano or Rippon arms is also a bump to GOE.

Thanks for your comment - I always love hearing about how a skater "looks" in real life.

Some skaters/programs just have a magic to them that really doesn't come across on TV. When I feel disappointed/surprised about scoring, I try to keep this in mind.

yyyskate · Mar 20, 2015

pay attention to music even during your technical element, including jumps and spins is also a forte of Joshua. I was totally wowed by Joshua's SL at 2013 SC because of that. There are some really subtle and innovative ideas of how they treat the music and tech elements and their relationship.
I would say both Joshua and Jason are really strong in this aspect. they all have tremendous respect to music and really interpretes music.

yyyskate · Mar 20, 2015

if talking about watching live, the only thing, I wish Joshua can improve, is his skating skills. And really glad that he said in IN telecom that he is indeed working on his skating skills

Joshua Farris articles re 2015 Worlds

apgold

Sandpiper

silverlake22

TontoK

Hot Tonto

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605

Li'Kitsu

Scovies

TontoK

Hot Tonto

msteach3

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Scovies

StitchMonkey

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Sandpiper

Li'Kitsu

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

TMC

yyyskate

yyyskate

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