Adelina Sotnikova Flip-loop combination

Li'Kitsu · Mar 12, 2015

Mathman said:
I think the reason is that you already get a bonus for s combination because you get to do an extra triple jump that otherwise you would have tp leave off altogether.

While that is true, it allows no differentiation between different combinations and the different difficulty. You get the same points for doing 3Lz-3T + 3T compared to 3T-3T + 3Lz. Or 3F-3Lo + 3T compared to 3F-3T + 3Lo.

I also don't really like the sequence penalty. Add these rules for sequences and combination together with the Zayak rule, and the skaters end up pretty limited with what the 'ideal' layout is.

JayW · Mar 12, 2015

Li'Kitsu said:
While that is true, it allows no differentiation between different combinations and the different difficulty. You get the same points for doing 3Lz-3T + 3T compared to 3T-3T + 3Lz. Or 3F-3Lo + 3T compared to 3F-3T + 3Lo.

I also don't really like the sequence penalty. Add these rules for sequences and combination together with the Zayak rule, and the skaters end up pretty limited with what the 'ideal' layout is.

Totally agree 3Lz-3T should be rewarded more than 3Lz and 3T. Same for the 3Lz-3L.

On the other hand, ISU should be more consistent for underrotation and wrong edge calls. I have the impression that Mao was under strict scrutiny more than anyone else. It totally made me sad.

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 12, 2015

JayW said:
On the other hand, ISU should be more consistent for underrotation and wrong edge calls. I have the impression that Mao was under strict scrutiny more than anyone else. It totally made me sad.

There have been times when Mao has gotten the benefit of the doubt as well. As far as edge calls, the "!" on Mao's lutz is absolutely correct.

Globetrotter · Mar 12, 2015

I would say that anyone who goes for loop combos will get scrutinised period. The skater needs to crank up much quicker on the second 3R jump without checking and sometimes, the pre-rotation becomes significant if you are not quick enough. that pre-rotation if it goes > 1/4 will easily result in an < call. In a strict sense, the tech caller is correct. As for the edge call for Asada...... I don't think she has ever landed a true outside edge 3Lz. I certainly will think she deserves the e call more often than not.

Sandpiper · Mar 12, 2015

^Mao probably deserves all her edge calls, but some of the UR (3A, 3-3s) have been questionable.

(Interesting how people say flutzing has to do with upper body strength. Yet Mao can do 3A but can't perform a clean-edge lutz. What's up with that? She's clearly using a lot of upper body strength on her 3A.)

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 12, 2015

Sandpiper said:
(Interesting how people say flutzing has to do with upper body strength. Yet Mao can do 3A but can't perform a clean-edge lutz. What's up with that? She's clearly using a lot of upper body strength on her 3A.)

I think it's a matter of having difficulty breaking out of poor habits. She developed her 3Lz and 3F taking off from an inside edge so never really trained the proper lutz take-off until the flutz started to incur more penalties.

RemyRose · Mar 12, 2015

Mony said:
She trains twice a day.

FSGMT said:
Even with DWTS to train for? :think:

AntonioThunderhunter said:
I think he meant once for figure skating, and once for DWTS.

No, Mony is right. 2 for skating and 1 for DWTS

How do you manage to combine lessons on the ice and restore dancing - all day and night train? - Actually, almost as it turns out. I have two sessions, morning and evening, and after them - from seven to eleven - dancing.

Source (3/11/15): http://gazetastrela.ru/2015/03/11/kusala-lokti-potomu-chto-ochen-xotela-vystupat/

Sasha'sSpins · Mar 12, 2015

^^^Wow!

Adelina sure has tons of energy to spare!

Globetrotter · Mar 13, 2015

She needs to work on getting back to the national team - fast. The season is winding down, so there is time to spare. Hoepfully the 3F-3R combo can be a reliable money jump for her. If she can fix the flutz, then she will be in good shape to hit a full 7 triple, 2x2A layout with an even better base value due to the repeat of flip and loop rather than the lower value flip and toe repeat.

Mathman · Mar 13, 2015

Mathman said:
I think the reason is that you already get a bonus for s combination because you get to do an extra triple jump that otherwise you would have tp leave off altogether.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Well in ladies, usually it's replacing a 2nd double axel (a 2nd 2A that can itself be added into a sequence).

Li'Kitsu said:
While that is true, it allows no differentiation between different combinations and the different difficulty. You get the same points for doing 3Lz-3T + 3T compared to 3T-3T + 3Lz. Or 3F-3Lo + 3T compared to 3F-3T + 3Lo.

JayW said:
Totally agree 3Lz-3T should be rewarded more than 3Lz and 3T. Same for the 3Lz-3L.

I think the reasoning goes something like this. For each skill you present, you get a certain number of points. If you do a triple toe you get 4.1 points. You can't get another 4.1 points (and another and another) by doing the same thing again. If you want some more points point you have to present a different skill.

Well, a 3T+2T combo is (marginally) a different skill. So you get 5.2 points for that skill. That's 5.2 points more than would be available if the spirit of the Zayak restrictions were enforced rigorously. That's a lot of "extra" points without needing to inflate the value of the combination.

If you compare 3T+3T and 3Lz with 3Lz+3T and solo 3T in the LP you do (potentially) get more points for the first layout than the second, because in the second you can repeat both a Lutz and a flip (or loop) later on, whereas the 3T-3T has foreclosed that possibility.

I do believe that there are hidden advantages to the harder combos even under the current rules, more than just the sum of the base values. This question comes up in the men's short program. Should you do 4T+3T and 3Lz out of steps, or solo 4T and 3Lz+3T? Some skaters might think the second layout is easier for the same points. But the first is still the winner. For one thing, in the second you have to do a quad out of steps. Most skaters can't do this and just omit the steps, hoping the judges will be kind. For another, it you go with the first plan and flub the combo, you can always retreat to the second as plan B. Third, the judges will give you extra GOE and PCS for doing a quad combo. Fourth, obviously as a competitive athlete you want to man up and go for the quad combo just for your own self respect. This will improve your confidence, your attitude, your posture and carriage, and potentially every aspect of your performance. :yes:

JayW · Mar 13, 2015

Thanks, Mathman. Your explanation makes sense.

FSGMT · Mar 13, 2015

DobrinFan said:
No, Mony is right. 2 for skating and 1 for DWTS

Source (3/11/15): http://gazetastrela.ru/2015/03/11/kusala-lokti-potomu-chto-ochen-xotela-vystupat/

Wow, that's a busy life!! Two sessions per day is still a lot (considering that she's not competing at the moment), so she should be perfectly capable of coming back next season if she wants

Sandpiper · Mar 13, 2015

Mathman said:
I think the reasoning goes something like this. For each skill you present, you get a certain number of points. If you do a triple toe you get 4.1 points. You can't get another 4.1 points (and another and another) by doing the same thing again. If you want some more points point you have to present a different skill.

Well, a 3T+2T combo is (marginally) a different skill. So you get 5.2 points for that skill. That's 5.2 points more than would be available if the spirit of the Zayak restrictions were enforced rigorously. That's a lot of "extra" points without needing to inflate the value of the combination.

If you compare 3T+3T and 3Lz with 3Lz+3T and solo 3T in the LP you do (potentially) get more points for the first layout than the second, because in the second you can repeat both a Lutz and a flip (or loop) later on, whereas the 3T-3T has foreclosed that possibility.

I do believe that there are hidden advantages to the harder combos even under the current rules, more than just the sum of the base values. This question comes up in the men's short program. Should you do 4T+3T and 3Lz out of steps, or solo 4T and 3Lz+3T? Some skaters might think the second layout is easier for the same points. But the first is still the winner. For one thing, in the second you have to do a quad out of steps. Most skaters can't do this and just omit the steps, hoping the judges will be kind. For another, it you go with the first plan and flub the combo, you can always retreat to the second as plan B. Third, the judges will give you extra GOE and PCS for doing a quad combo. Fourth, obviously as a competitive athlete you want to man up and go for the quad combo just for your own self respect. This will improve your confidence, your attitude, your posture and carriage, and potentially every aspect of your performance. :yes:

While you make good points on the ladies (I still think harder combos should receive a slight bonus, but I can see where you're coming from), I disagree about the men.

The current WR is held by an SP with 3Lz-3T. There is no evidence that judges throw out higher PCS/GOE for a quad combination. Quite the opposite, I'd suggest--if someone can do a 4T out of steps, they automatically get higher TR marks, and higher GOE for said 4T no matter its other qualities (thankfully, the WR holder does have a legitimately good 4T even discounting the steps). By choosing 3Lz-3T, the skater can also perform the combination in the second half of the SP for that 10% bonus--not really an option for anyone trying 4T-3T, unless you have amazing stamina. Yes, you have nowhere to tack on the combo if you miss it... but goodness, it's a 3Lz, don't miss it.

Now, had it been up to me, the WR would probably be Tatsuki Machida's East of Eden... but, well, it's not up to me. :laugh:

Li'Kitsu · Mar 13, 2015

Mathman said:
I do believe that there are hidden advantages to the harder combos even under the current rules, more than just the sum of the base values.

There are hidden advantages - but to use them, you need another skill, unrelated to the combo theme before. Is that really fair? Say we have two ladies who have trouble with the lutz edge and want to avoid the call by excluding that jump from the SP. One can do a 3F-3Lo, the other the easier 3F-3T. But the harder combo gives you zero advantage here - the only jumps you can do as the solo jump are 3T and 3S, who are nearly worth the same (0.1 points higher is not going to win you anything). So under the current rules, both are doing 3F, 3Lo and 3T and get the same points. No matter that one did a harder combination.
If you want to gain something from going for that harder combo, you better be able to do a clean 3Lz. But how does it make sense that the worth of your no lutz including combo is measured by your capability of landing a clean lutz?

Sandpiper said:
There is no evidence that judges throw out higher PCS/GOE for a quad combination. Quite the opposite, I'd suggest--if someone can do a 4T out of steps, they automatically get higher TR marks, and higher GOE for said 4T no matter its other qualities

Those are issues that are not directly linked to the combo questions only though: 1.) judges just don't hand out the -GOE they should hand out for single jumps without the steps. If they did that, I guess we'd already see more 4T-3Ts again. 2.) Transitions are just double-awarded and overvalued under this system in general :no:
Generally though, I agree the 4T topic for the men is a good example. That specific one with Hanyu maybe a little less so, as I'm sure that Olympic SP would hold the WR, combo bonus or not

Sandpiper · Mar 14, 2015

Li'Kitsu said:
Those are issues that are not directly linked to the combo questions only though: 1.) judges just don't hand out the -GOE they should hand out for single jumps without the steps. If they did that, I guess we'd already see more 4T-3Ts again. 2.) Transitions are just double-awarded and overvalued under this system in general :no:
Generally though, I agree the 4T topic for the men is a good example. That specific one with Hanyu maybe a little less so, as I'm sure that Olympic SP would hold the WR, combo bonus or not

Well, it was the Olympics, and Yuzuru was the only top contender who skated a clean SP there.

Imo, if there was a combo bonus, a clean Patrick Chan could've easily held the SP record. But clean Patrick Chan didn't show up at the Olympics. :slink:

Mathman · Mar 14, 2015

Li'Kitsu said:
There are hidden advantages - but to use them, you need another skill, unrelated to the combo theme before. Is that really fair? Say we have two ladies who have trouble with the lutz edge and want to avoid the call by excluding that jump from the SP. One can do a 3F-3Lo, the other the easier 3F-3T. But the harder combo gives you zero advantage here - the only jumps you can do as the solo jump are 3T and 3S, who are nearly worth the same (0.1 points higher is not going to win you anything). So under the current rules, both are doing 3F, 3Lo and 3T and get the same points. No matter that one did a harder combination.

If you want to gain something from going for that harder combo, you better be able to do a clean 3Lz. But how does it make sense that the worth of your no lutz including combo is measured by your capability of landing a clean lutz?

You got me there. In this scenario, training a triple flip/triple loop is a waste of time. Better start working on that Lutz instead.

In general, I agree that under the present rules a triple something/triple loop combo is a loser. All you will get for your effort is a UR call.

Globetrotter · Mar 16, 2015

Mathman said:
In general, I agree that under the present rules a triple something/triple loop combo is a loser. All you will get for your effort is a UR call.

Yup, that is the whole issue. Tagging a 3R on the second jump is way more difficult than a 3T and much higher risk of getting a UR, depending on how capricious the tech controller team is. Just so not worth the reward at present. Thats why some of us have been advocating that some sort of additional BV bonus should be rewarded for loop based combo provided the 3X-3R is fully ratified / rotated.

hippomoomin · Mar 16, 2015

Sorry if this is a naive question. Is R another way of saying Loop? I am really curious.

Globetrotter said:
Yup, that is the whole issue. Tagging a 3R on the second jump is way more difficult than a 3T and much higher risk of getting a UR, depending on how capricious the tech controller team is. Just so not worth the reward at present. Thats why some of us have been advocating that some sort of additional BV bonus should be rewarded for loop based combo provided the 3X-3R is fully ratified / rotated.

AsadaFanBoy · Mar 16, 2015

Yes. The European name for the jump is the Rittberger =)

Globetrotter · Mar 16, 2015

Yes it is. European commentators typically call the loop jump a Rittberger in honour of Werner Rittberger who was credited for inventing that jump. i typically type 3R, 2R etc in short (rather than 3L, 2L) in order to reduce any misunderstanding that it refers to the lutz jump.

Adelina Sotnikova Flip-loop combination

Li'Kitsu

JayW

drivingmissdaisy

Globetrotter

Sandpiper

drivingmissdaisy

RemyRose

YOLO

Sasha'sSpins

Globetrotter

Mathman

JayW

FSGMT

Sandpiper

Li'Kitsu

Sandpiper

Mathman

Globetrotter

hippomoomin

AsadaFanBoy

Globetrotter

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