Aaron striving to become more balletic on the ice

andromache · May 4, 2015

TheGrandSophy said:
I just watched the Tron program again and, while he jumped well and seemed to enjoy it, not much happened. It felt like the whole first half was just him skating between jumps. Surely that is what doesn't get some of the PCS? So, the fact that these new programs have more choreographic and transitional content will surely help, whether balletic or not.

I also rewatched the program and largely agree with you. The first half didn't have much choreography, and the choreography that was executed seemed a little lackluster; it lacked "oomph" if that makes sense. OTOH, in the second half, especially in the footwork sequence, Max really brings the energy and excitement to his movements. So I can see where karne is coming from, but I also see why the Tron program isn't exactly an exemplary artistic program, regardless of whether it fits the so-called narrow definition of artistry that USFS supposedly espouses.

Mrs. P · May 4, 2015

My thing with Max is that for being a "jumper" he doesn't get awesome TES scores relative to his competition. Yes he has quads, but he doesn't score huge +GOE on them (or his other jumps for that matter. He also doesn't get full spin levels. Consider his season's best TES this season: 83.46 at US International Classic Senior B and 83.35 at Skate Canada.

Josh and Jason have scored similar and higher TES scores internationally this season with fewer (or in Jason's case, none) quads.

He needs to be getting +2 and +3 on quads and 3A. If he did that, his jump content would be scoring 90+ on a consistent basis. If you do that, you will fare well in international competitions, even if they only give you 75 PCS. But we also know that 90+ consistency (or even 83-85+ consistency) in TES may play out in PCS as well.

Trying to improve your scores on something that is pretty subjective by nature (PCS) seems odd given that he's left a lot of points on the table on the TES. While still pretty subjective (especially +GOE), it seems like a much easier area to make improvements.

StitchMonkey · May 4, 2015

Mrs. P said:
My thing with Max is that for being a "jumper" he doesn't get awesome TES scores relative to his competition. Yes he has quads, but he doesn't score huge +GOE on them (or his other jumps for that matter. He also doesn't get full spin levels. Consider his season's best TES this season: 83.46 at US International Classic Senior B and 83.35 at Skate Canada.

Josh and Jason have scored similar and higher TES scores internationally this season with fewer (or in Jason's case, none) quads.

He needs to be getting +2 and +3 on quads and 3A. If he did that, his jump content he should be scoring 90+ on a consistent basis. If you do that, you will fare well in international competitions, even if they only give you 75 PCS. But we also know that 90+ consistency (or even 83-85+ consistency) in TES may play out in PCS as well.

Trying to improve your scores on something that is pretty subjective by nature (PCS) seems odd given that he's left a lot of points on the table on the TES. While still pretty subjective (especially +GOE), it seems like a much easier area to make improvements.

The thing is, for Max working on his jump GOE would likely improve his PCS as well. Fewer hands down, some interesting variations, and I would hope that would be rewarded appropriately in PCS. I would even go so far as to say working on his jump GOE would be an extension of working on his PCS.

He could also really channel some of his power into other areas in other ways too. I really want Tom Z to tell Max to go into a flying camel with the same speed and power he would go into a quad. I think a great goal for Max would be to have the biggest jump into a flying camel in figure skating. Obviously this would mean doing the spin well, but don't treat it as a hop, treat it like a damn high jump competition!

Or how about a triple of any sort from a stand still? I know they can do it off ice. Imagine getting to the part of the program where you think they are just catching their breath, then BAM a triple from a pose. I suspect Max *could* do it, so it is just a matter of making it work.

I think starting so early will help him. He can get the program down, and then start playing with it. I think his new programs will be at least appreciated on the international stage.

ice coverage · May 4, 2015

TontoK said:
I'm am astonished by Max's new programs. It's not even the "new" season yet, and they look pretty developed. The most promising work I've seen from him in quite a while.

I love Max, but this side of him has taken me by surprise. You may remember that I wanted him to skate to Fleetwood Mac. A short to opera and a long to ballet? I would never have thought it would fly. But they do fly, and I think they can soar!

I've been unfair to want to stuff him in the cubbyhole I had built for him, and I think it's really unfair to be so critical of this direction on one viewing of the programs after they've had less than a month of training.

Max needs powerful music; it looks like it doesn't matter if it is Puccini or Van Halen. He really looks like he's inspired, and isn't that what we hope for all skaters?

:agree: Thanks for your great post, Tonto.

You most definitely are invited to my spring cotillion

!

Mrs. P · May 4, 2015

StitchMonkey said:
The thing is, for Max working on his jump GOE would likely improve his PCS as well. Fewer hands down, some interesting variations, and I would hope that would be rewarded appropriately in PCS. I would even go so far as to say working on his jump GOE would be an extension of working on his PCS.

He could also really channel some of his power into other areas in other ways too. I really want Tom Z to tell Max to go into a flying camel with the same speed and power he would go into a quad. I think a great goal for Max would be to have the biggest jump into a flying camel in figure skating. Obviously this would mean doing the spin well, but don't treat it as a hop, treat it like a damn high jump competition!

Or how about a triple of any sort from a stand still? I know they can do it off ice. Imagine getting to the part of the program where you think they are just catching their breath, then BAM a triple from a pose. I suspect Max *could* do it, so it is just a matter of making it work.

I think starting so early will help him. He can get the program down, and then start playing with it. I think his new programs will be at least appreciated on the international stage.

Exactly. A bit reason Max won Nationals in 2013 isn't because of PCS, it's because he basically out jumped everyone. He got third in the FS at 4CC and had a really awesome top 10 debut at Worlds. At that Worlds his PCS was 74.30, it wasn't that much less than his PCS at WTT.

He had a ton of momentum coming into the 2013-2014 season to the point he was almost a shoo-in for the Olympic team. He looked solid at Skate America with a bronze and a 2nd place FS with 90+ TES. Then basically that momentum just was gone. He basically had to rework his programs and take out one of his quads.

I respect Max for wanting to work on weaknesses, but I think there's something about not reinventing the wheel. Also as for USFSA yapping about weaknesses or whatever -- sometimes you have to just say screw it and do what works for you.

mrrice · May 4, 2015

Mathman said:
Nah, this is nonsense, The American guys are not goofing off on the quads just so they can be "American propers" or the second coming of Lysacek. They just can't do quads.

Exactly! People act like quads come in can. They're really hard. Not to mention really painful when you don't land them. Ballet may be hard for Max but it's a lot less painful than hitting the ice, time after time, hour after hour.

samm22 · May 4, 2015

mrrice said:
Exactly! People act like quads come in can. They're really hard. Not to mention really painful when you don't land them. Ballet may be hard for Max but it's a lot less painful than hitting the ice, time after time, hour after hour.

I respectfully disagree with the ballet part of your post…one can hurt one's self just as hard training in ballet as they can skating (although, the "ballet" that Max is doing, won't be the kind that he can hurt himself doing - it couldn't be more basic) I don't think he has to necessarily go down "ballet" route, but it seems to be working for him, and I think it's what USFSA would like to see (however invalid their intensions may be) If Max could work on his PCS AND GOE, then I think we could see him move up in the standings, but his consistency has to improve along with his artistry. Quads are hard! and they are extremely difficult to train, but it sounded as if ballet was not as difficult as training quads, which just isn't true…but that is a different debate for a different thread

shiroKJ · May 4, 2015

samm22 said:
I respectfully disagree with the ballet part of your post…one can hurt one's self just as hard training in ballet as they can skating (although, the "ballet" that Max is doing, won't be the kind that he can hurt himself doing - it couldn't be more basic) I don't think he has to necessarily go down "ballet" route, but it seems to be working for him, and I think it's what USFSA would like to see (however invalid their intensions may be) If Max could work on his PCS AND GOE, then I think we could see him move up in the standings, but his consistency has to improve along with his artistry. Quads are hard! and they are extremely difficult to train, but it sounded as if ballet was not as difficult as training quads, which just isn't true…but that is a different debate for a different thread

I agree that Max's "ballet" training is most likely just the basic forms of posture and execution. Quads are hard but have you seen a professional ballet dancers feet? Its gruesome the amount of pain and injuries that they have to go through. Obviously that's not what Max is doing but the point is that one is not harder than the other. They're just different.

Anyways, if this is what Max wants to strive for then he should go for it. When he's on that ice, its his stage and his performance to give, as well as his scores to receive. Not anyone else.

gmyers · May 4, 2015

Mrs. P said:
My thing with Max is that for being a "jumper" he doesn't get awesome TES scores relative to his competition. Yes he has quads, but he doesn't score huge +GOE on them (or his other jumps for that matter. He also doesn't get full spin levels. Consider his season's best TES this season: 83.46 at US International Classic Senior B and 83.35 at Skate Canada.

Josh and Jason have scored similar and higher TES scores internationally this season with fewer (or in Jason's case, none) quads.

He needs to be getting +2 and +3 on quads and 3A. If he did that, his jump content would be scoring 90+ on a consistent basis. If you do that, you will fare well in international competitions, even if they only give you 75 PCS. But we also know that 90+ consistency (or even 83-85+ consistency) in TES may play out in PCS as well.

Trying to improve your scores on something that is pretty subjective by nature (PCS) seems odd given that he's left a lot of points on the table on the TES. While still pretty subjective (especially +GOE), it seems like a much easier area to make improvements.

Of course because Tes also includes spins and steps.

Mathman said:
Nah, this is nonsense, The American guys are not goofing off on the quads just so they can be "American propers" or the second coming of Lysacek. They just can't do quads.

It's North American proper because Canada is vital to the concept and umbrella term

gmyers · May 4, 2015

noskates said:
gmyers - I agree with you to a point about pcs versus quads, but don't write off either Adam's or Josh's quads and my bet is Jason will have one this upcoming season....or at least make attempts at landing one. He can do the rotation easily...just needs the confidence. I would hate to think that the US is only interested in pcs because that will surely eliminate them from any meaningful international competition. Yes there are some that will say we've already eliminated ourselves but I don't believe that for a minute.

But I do think that quads without some level of artistic components linking them to the other movements in a program are not enough in any country!

It's very clear that Max is far from my favorite skater; however, I don't think his team should be trying to turn him into someone he isn't. I think that Max is more than capable of doing any program whatsoever that Elvis Stojko performed and I think Max's jumps are more pleasing to the eye than Elvis' were. JMO. So instead of laying Nessun Dorma on him and making him do arm movements that are not natural to him....come up with an athletic performance and music that suits his style.

In America you see how once you get artistry and all triples consistent you are complete. Quads are extra. There's been integration of quads into the complete term. But people who do quads and all triples must be great artistically.

Mathman · May 4, 2015

A little bit off-topic, but here is a funny snippet of the conversation the last time this question came up. (For once I was on the same side as Joesitz.

)

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?34255-Ladies-Long-Program/page49

Mr. Aaron will do a quad Axel before he does this.

http://www.ballet.co.uk/images/abt/gs_corsaire_david_hallberg_split_jump_500.jpg

TontoK · May 5, 2015

golden411 said:
:agree: Thanks for your great post, Tonto.

You most definitely are invited to my spring cotillion !

Your charming post has made my night!

I will definitely accept the invite!

daphenaxa · May 5, 2015

StitchMonkey said:
Or how about a triple of any sort from a stand still? I know they can do it off ice. Imagine getting to the part of the program where you think they are just catching their breath, then BAM a triple from a pose. I suspect Max *could* do it, so it is just a matter of making it work.

That sounds like a bad idea, especially if you are trying to up your GOEs. A jump from a stand still would be super cool/impressive for the public but it would never get the height and flow of a jump done with speed. I suspect it wouldn't score very high.

Icey · May 5, 2015

No male figure skater can be "balletic", since tights are not allowed. ROTFL

karne · May 5, 2015

Icey said:
No male figure skater can be "balletic", since tights are not allowed. ROTFL

What do you call Max's "pants", then?

Poice · May 5, 2015

I don't think that Aaron needs more transitions, better SS, difficult steps before his jumps and so-called "artistry" to be competitive...Just look at Voronov. Judges love consistency. Aaron should focus on landing his jumps cleanly - without step-out, hand down etc. I saw Voronov live at GPF and he's really slow even if you compare him to Kovtun, Mura. He's good performer but there is nothing between jumps and other elements.

daphenaxa · May 5, 2015

Poice said:
I don't think that Aaron needs more transitions, better SS, difficult steps before his jumps and so-called "artistry" to be competitive...Just look at Voronov. Judges love consistency. Aaron should focus on landing his jumps cleanly - without step-out, hand down etc. I saw Voronov live at GPF and he's really slow even if you compare him to Kovtun, Mura. He's good performer but there is nothing between jumps and other elements.

Well I agree with you consistency is key for him and really shoud be the 1st objective. But then it depends what placement he aims for. If he wants to be top10 at worlds then great. But if he wants to be on the podium he does need to seriously work on his PCS. I really like Voronov and I liked his program this year (yes!) but he is not really world-podium worthy even when clean. He skated really well at WWT with a season best and finished 4th even without a lot of competitors not present and 30 points behind Hanyu!

gmyers · May 5, 2015

Poice said:
I don't think that Aaron needs more transitions, better SS, difficult steps before his jumps and so-called "artistry" to be competitive...Just look at Voronov. Judges love consistency. Aaron should focus on landing his jumps cleanly - without step-out, hand down etc. I saw Voronov live at GPF and he's really slow even if you compare him to Kovtun, Mura. He's good performer but there is nothing between jumps and other elements.

He can't be like voronov because he's in America. He needs to beat brown Farris rippon etc etc. he can't be russian. If he was in Russia he could be kovtun.

Tavi... · May 5, 2015

gmyers said:
He can't be like voronov because he's in America. He needs to beat brown Farris rippon etc etc. he can't be russian. If he was in Russia he could be kovtun.

Don't you ever get tired of repeating the same arguments ad infinitum? Max won Nats in2013. He beat Brown, Farris, Rippon, etc.

As for me, I will wait to see how his programs develop over the season before I judge the success of a more balletic style. I thought his new programs looked really good and had potential but of course they're not perfect yet - the wonder is that he's done so much so quickly.

And...Max's sister has studied ballet for years. Maybe he has always loved it and wanted yo incorporate it into his style. It's really not up to us to judge whether he should or should not go in this direction, although we can decide whether we like the results.

Give the guy some time!

gmyers · May 5, 2015

papagena said:
Don't you ever get tired of repeating the same arguments ad infinitum? Max won Nats in2013. He beat Brown, Farris, Rippon, etc.

As for me, I will wait to see how his programs develop over the season before I judge the success of a more balletic style. I thought his new programs looked really good and had potential but of course they're not perfect yet - the wonder is that he's done so much so quickly.

And...Max's sister has studied ballet for years. Maybe he has always loved it and wanted yo incorporate it into his style. It's really not up to us to judge whether he should or should not go in this direction, although we can decide whether we like the results.

Give the guy some time!

But Aaron really isn't any worse than he was in 2013! He didn't lose any jumps or anything.

Aaron striving to become more balletic on the ice

andromache

Mrs. P

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StitchMonkey

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Mrs. P

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