Polemic moments in FS

N@d&A · Jun 29, 2004

Tomorrow in my English class I have to present kind of a final project and I need to talk about polemic moments in Figure Skating but the only big polemic thing I can say I know is what happened in 2002 Olympic games with the pairs (that´s because 3 years of being involve in FS aren´t enough), so I wonder If you can help me with some information about more cases or any web site in which I can find information about it.

Mathman · Jun 29, 2004

I can think of several categories.

1. Judging scandals like the Salt Lake City pairs controversy. There have been lots of instances where partisans have felt they were robbed by politics. The Linda Fratianne thing is one (this raised the general point about whether influential coaches can get medals for their skaters by back-room deals).

More recently, the petition against Chait and Sakhnovsky. (This is a good one because you can discuss whether anti-semitism played a role.)

I'm not sure what "moment" to take, but the whole cold war Eastern Bloc versus Western Bloc is always fun.

2. Close contests where people are still arguing about the results (Oksana/Nancy, Boitano/Orser). This is probably less interesting for your purposes, because it only involves the skating itself, not any broader issues.

3. Major changes in the sport. I'm not sure if these constitute "polemic moments," but there were a lot of arguments and disagreement about eliminating figures -- and the decision changed the sport hugely and permanently.

In the same category, the debates about the CoP versus the ordinal system raised a lot of controversy that has yet to be resolved.

Mathman

euterpe · Jun 29, 2004

How about the Grand Prix Final in 2001, where Irina had a very bad skate, landed only 4 triples and won anyway? Kwan landed 6 triples and Hughes, 7. The panel split East/West 4/3.

Ptichka · Jun 29, 2004

Hmmm, how about just about every championship

Just look at our current Voting Booth threads:
Tara vs. Michelle in '98 Olympics
Dance at '98 Olympics
Should the pros have been re-instated in '94
Kwan or Chen in '96 Worlds

I'd add
2002 Dance at Worlds
Urmanov vs. Stojko in '94
And many many many more...

lulu · Jun 29, 2004

The Urmanov v. Stoijko may be an interesting topic-not so much as "judging controversy" because 8/9 judges went for Urmanov and the issue really isn't THAT highly debated amonst fans today.
But, it brings up the different cultural influences of a North American vs. Russian skater. Urmanov doing an unusual yet, still classical version of the ballet classic "Swan Lake."
With Stoijko doing a routine that incorparated karate movements.
It also could bring up the can of worms of the topic of How is "masculinity" percived in figure skating, and across cultural boundries.
This won't help your project (sorry :eek:

) but if you ever get the chance to read Culture On Ice by Ellyn Kestnbaum-there's a part of a chapter-dealing with Stoijko(mostly) and Urmanov and the role of percieved "masculinity" vs. "femeninity" and how it effects skating.

Whatever, you decide to do-good luck!!!

RIskatingfan · Jun 29, 2004

Can I just make a suggestion? LOL Whatever you choose to use, please choose something that has to do with the essence of the sport and that makes people interested in it. If you choose judging scandals people will think "if there are so many problems then I don't want to know more about it, it seems a big mess". You see my point?

I think you could talk about the pairs in SLC (it's recent, they're both still skating and competing agaisnt each other as pros). But instead of focusing on the judging scandal, you could focus on the difficulty to make a decision. Which is the best skate? A clean skate but a little easier, or a slightly flawed skate but a little harder? You could pick rules and how judges usually judge these cases, the technical part vs artistic part... that's what I'd do. (I have no idea if you agree with my assessment on the competition, but it's a suggestion anyway). You could talk about the judging, focusing on how it complicated even more the situation and contributted to make it so controversial, but not giving it as much importance. You'd focus more on the split panel that would still exist (alledgedly cheating judge or not).

I think it would be a really interesting project

sk8m8 · Jun 29, 2004

another obvious case of which you speak is the (in)famous win of Maria Petrova & Alexei Tikhonov over Zhen and Zhou at worlds in 2000. B&S had been disqualified due to some medication problems with Elana using some cold medicine that had a banned substance in it. There was proven colusion between judges to mark the Russians ahead of the Chinese. There was a tape caught of an obvious foot tap signaling the judge to whom to reward the higher mark. As you may recall, a Chinese couple had never won the title and Russians have tended to dominate the dicipline. You may also want to make the correlation that these incidents happen again and again because, even if they are suspended or penalized, they usually come back to judge or hold some other important/pursuasive office within the ISU or their own country's skating federation...just a thought...good luck!

N@d&A · Jun 29, 2004

Thanks

Those are great ideas but I think that my classmates want to hear about something stronger I don´t know much about but I knew of something happened many years ago between Harding ang Kerrigan
If you cant tell me something about it?

dmr65 · Jun 30, 2004

RIskatingfan said:
Can I just make a suggestion? LOL Whatever you choose to use, please choose something that has to do with the essence of the sport and that makes people interested in it. If you choose judging scandals people will think "if there are so many problems then I don't want to know more about it, it seems a big mess". You see my point?

I agree with that suggestion..

RIskatingfan · Jun 30, 2004

N@d&A said:
Thanks

Those are great ideas but I think that my classmates want to hear about something stronger I don´t know much about but I knew of something happened many years ago between Harding ang Kerrigan
If you cant tell me something about it?

Something stronger? LOL Yes, it was a huge scandal, still is talked about, and I'm sure it was more advertised on your TV but it doesn't have absolutely anything to do with skating. It only had to do with a skater (Tonya Hardigan) alledgedly being involved in a scheme to injure another skater (Nancy Kerrigan) so that she couldn't compete at the Olympics. Like I said, it's nasty and doesn't have anything to do with skating. For all it's worth, you could pick another sport and I'm sure you'd have no problem in finding something even "stronger" than the Tonya/ Nancy incident. Are you sure you want to choose something that has to do with skating?

But it's your project of course, so if you want to know more maybe doing a search on google would help.

sk8m8 · Jun 30, 2004

Not to try to insert an english lesson here but maybe you should take a closer look at the meaning of the word Polemic. According to the dictionary it is

1) A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine.
2) A person engaged in or inclined to controversy, argument, or refutation.

It is usually used to decribe a type of argument (usually over principles). Electorial contest are decribed as poemic. Nancy and Tonya would only be a polemic argument if you concentrated on Tonya's assurtion that she was only innocent of "knowing" after the fact of the incident rather than being in on it. You could then use the "polemic argument" over whether people believed her, how she is perceived, the effects her attempts to skate again have caused (other figure skaters refusing to skate with her. Most especially her feelings that money was made "off her name" yet she didn't profer.

CoP is a terrific example of something that has caused a polemic aurgument...it isn't embraced as a better step by many. Other countries skating federations have offered alternatives. It was passed in a rather authoritarian way after it was introduced as a "trial" version of judging which quickly became the standard. It was instituted to end run a scandel that had been brewing in the sport for a long time and happened to occur at a very public venue, the Olympics. People are still unsure of its effect on the future of skating and if it has addressed the problem that it was created to solve. Cheers.

icenut84 · Jun 30, 2004

sk8m8 said:
another obvious case of which you speak is the (in)famous win of Maria Petrova & Alexei Tikhonov over Zhen and Zhou at worlds in 2000. B&S had been disqualified due to some medication problems with Elana using some cold medicine that had a banned substance in it. There was proven colusion between judges to mark the Russians ahead of the Chinese. There was a tape caught of an obvious foot tap signaling the judge to whom to reward the higher mark. As you may recall, a Chinese couple had never won the title and Russians have tended to dominate the dicipline. You may also want to make the correlation that these incidents happen again and again because, even if they are suspended or penalized, they usually come back to judge or hold some other important/pursuasive office within the ISU or their own country's skating federation...just a thought...good luck!

I haven't watched those two routines for a while, but I remember when I did that I thought Petrova & Tikhonov deserved their gold. And I thought the "toe tapping" thing happened at 99 Worlds, not 2000?

sk8m8 · Jun 30, 2004

rechecked my facts and B&S won worlds in 98 and 99 and were dq from europeans and therefore worlds in 2000 when P&T won in something like a 5/4 split. The fact that many think that either side should have won with or without the infamous "toe tap" by one judge to another only added more fuel to make this a "polemic aurguement".

hockeyfan228 · Jun 30, 2004

Another possible topic is the decision to drop figures from skating, after phasing out their importance with the advent of the short program. There are a number of controversial subtopics with this one:

Based on the name of the sport in each language, the importance of figures themselves is not consistent (Figure Skating vs. Eiskunstlaufen [or "Art Skating" in German])

Since figures were judged "in secret" (i.e., off camera), figures judging is esoteric and not easily explained, and apart from standouts as Beatrix Schuba, and the judges have been accused of using them to set up the standings before the free skating had begun, there's a judging controversy angle built in

There's been much debate over whether edge quality, posture, and control have gone downhill since figures were eliminated from all but rank tests

The truism is that figures take a long time to perfect, and they certainly take many hours of training. As a result, younger skaters were at a disadvantage and hours now spent on jumps were spent on figures. This has changed, and there has been an impact on the sport, which we spend hours debating.

The usual argument is that figures were dropped primarily because they were not telegenic. Along with TV revenues come other byproducts of media interest, and the debate over good vs. bad is ongoing

Ladskater · Jul 1, 2004

N@d&A:

po·lem·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p-lmk)
n.
A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine.
A person engaged in or inclined to controversy, argument, or refutation.

adj. also po·lem·i·cal (--kl)
Of or relating to a controversy, argument, or refutation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[French polémique, from Greek polemikos, hostile, from polemos, war.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
po·lemi·cal·ly adv.

Your topic title "Polemic moments in FS" intrigued me, so I had to look up the meaning of polemic to see how the word applied to the world of figure skating.
I think it is a bit of a "stretch" to use this term for moments of controversy in figure skating. Was this the name of your topic from your English assignment? Not that it makes any difference now, since my contribution here comes after the fact. Your assignment will have already been handed in. Still, I could not resist pondering this topic.

Figure skating - especially the judging aspect - certainly has had its controversial moments and many good examples have been given here. I don't know if it is good for the sport for people to be constantly focused on its short comings and behind the scenes scandals. After all, its the beauty and creativity of figure skating that attracts people in the first place. It's too bad so much "bad press" has infiltrated to the public and detracted from figure skating's once former "innocent" image. I think if it were not for the integrity of the skaters themselves figure skating might lose its appeal to the masses. As someone pointed out here, people may not want to bother with it because of judging scandals.

I think it's better for figure skating, to keep it honest, keep it interesting and keep its "family" image strong. Maybe that should be your theme! Keep us posted on how you made out.

JonnyCoop · Jul 2, 2004

sk8m8 said:
rechecked my facts and B&S won worlds in 98 and 99 and were dq from europeans and therefore worlds in 2000 when P&T won in something like a 5/4 split. The fact that many think that either side should have won with or without the infamous "toe tap" by one judge to another only added more fuel to make this a "polemic aurguement".

You might want to recheck them again -- I went into my archives and the "toe tap" incident actually happened at the 99 Worlds, B & S over S & Z -- unless it happened AGAIN the following year and I missed it??

sk8m8 · Jul 2, 2004

Props to you JC, You're version of the facts are indeed correct. I knew it was a Russian vs Chinese incident, I just didn't know is was B&S that were the pair involved. Even this contiues the arguement's" lithmus test" of being polemic, but is the Actual factual account (which is kind of important when doing academic work :laugh:

. Now that you've reminded me, I do remember Uncle Dickie saying something that it was unusual that the "top tap" heard round the judges table was uneccessary because the Russians were already Oly medalists and World Champs, why would they need help.

Bringing up, yet again ANOTHER judging scandal when the Russian Mafioso type allledgedly attempted to influence the outcome in favor of A&P who needed no help winning their gold medal either.

N@d&A · Jul 2, 2004

Ladskater said:
N@d&A:

po·lem·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p-lmk)
n.
A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine.
A person engaged in or inclined to controversy, argument, or refutation.

adj. also po·lem·i·cal (--kl)
Of or relating to a controversy, argument, or refutation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[French polémique, from Greek polemikos, hostile, from polemos, war.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
po·lemi·cal·ly adv.

Your topic title "Polemic moments in FS" intrigued me, so I had to look up the meaning of polemic to see how the word applied to the world of figure skating.
I think it is a bit of a "stretch" to use this term for moments of controversy in figure skating. Was this the name of your topic from your English assignment? Not that it makes any difference now, since my contribution here comes after the fact. Your assignment will have already been handed in. Still, I could not resist pondering this topic.

Figure skating - especially the judging aspect - certainly has had its controversial moments and many good examples have been given here. I don't know if it is good for the sport for people to be constantly focused on its short comings and behind the scenes scandals. After all, its the beauty and creativity of figure skating that attracts people in the first place. It's too bad so much "bad press" has infiltrated to the public and detracted from figure skating's once former "innocent" image. I think if it were not for the integrity of the skaters themselves figure skating might lose its appeal to the masses. As someone pointed out here, people may not want to bother with it because of judging scandals.

I think it's better for figure skating, to keep it honest, keep it interesting and keep its "family" image strong. Maybe that should be your theme! Keep us posted on how you made out.

OK
As you remember I´m Mexican and I´m 16 so I still practicing and taking English classes and it´s very difficult to learn another language perfectly so maybe the word "Polemic" wasn´t a good choise but let me tell you the history of my assignment.
Everyone in my class were suposed to do a presentation of a certain topic that our teacher indicate to us originaly my topic was Extreme Sports but when I searched about it I got more plubicity than anything so I asked her if I could change my topic to FS in general but she said that it was going to be very long and she told me exactly "why don´t you choose a more interesting topic about the sport like the most polemic moments or something like that" so I agreed with that but as you know I have been skating for a very short time and I don´t know much about it so I though in asked you for help using exactly the topic she told me but my intentions in here were only to get some help nor causing any misunderstanding(or whatever it writes) so I spoke a little bit of the judjing situations and some other examples that have been posted here but my classmates have already forgotten averything that was just the moments and belive me that day were so many presentations that it was only for a grade nothing really important.

So please don´t worry about this Tread´s name I promise that I´ll continue studing and practicing my English vocabulary it´s very difficult for me to write in an other language I understand listening, reading and grammar but writting it´s difficult.

Grgranny · Jul 2, 2004

N@d&A,
I think you are doing a really good job so don't worry about it. I hope they enjoy your report.

Ladskater · Jul 2, 2004

N@d&A:

Good for you!!! Writing is a challenge in any language and certainly English is no acception! I hope you did well on your assignment. There are certainly many good topics in figure skating you could continue with. When I read your topic of disussion, it caught my interest. It's good to keep the creative juices flowing!

Polemic moments in FS

N@d&A

Mathman

euterpe

Ptichka

Forum translator

lulu

RIskatingfan

sk8m8

N@d&A

dmr65

RIskatingfan

sk8m8

icenut84

sk8m8

hockeyfan228

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

JonnyCoop

sk8m8

N@d&A

Grgranny

Da' Spellin' Homegirl

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

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