Some more thoughts about judging

QuadThrow · Nov 21, 2016

I took a deeper look at the judging details. The last years is became more and more clear what features you preferable need to reach the world class level and what makes you drop. I tried to analyze them.

Ladies: As a woman you need to avoid underrotations. Some Girls (Wagner, Japanese...) are famous for underrotations. This has been punished very hard this GP season. The program content is very similiar at the top level that is why underrotations are so bad.

Men: Compared to the woman the program content is very different in between the men. Very much depents on the BV. As men you need around two 3A and two Quads in the Free. It is really hard to be competetive in the SP with only one Quad. In this case you have to be clean. Just Adam Rippon is maybe able to win medal without big conent, because his style is very exquisite and unique.

Pairs: Pairs need high GOE. In pairs skating every pair shows nearly the same elements and the same BV. Quads are very rare and are not prized like in singles. V/T were so dominant because of their high GOE. S/M won TdF last week with their enormous GOE for their lifts and twist.

Dance: Dance pairs definitly must get the high levels at the technical elements to be at the top. Dance points are usually way too high. Every world class pair receives +2/+3 in GOE and 8.50-9.50 in the PCS. The judges do not differenciate enough. In addition one level is prized with 1,5-2 points and it is very hard to get level 4. The point differences in the SD are usually made by the levels. It is a pity because the technical commitee has too much power. Do not forget that there are only three people compared to nine judges.

Hevari · Nov 21, 2016

QuadThrow said:
I took a deeper look at the judging details. The last years is became more and more clear what features you preferable need to reach the world class level and what makes you drop. I tried to analyze them.

Ladies: As a woman you need to avoid underrotations. Some Girls (Wagner, Japanese...) are famous for underrotations. This has been punished very hard this GP season. The program content is very similiar at the top level that is why underrotations are so bad.

But... I want to add, that judging there is inconsistent. Sometimes they punish an UR or wrong edge, sometimes no even if there is a same skater or the same competition... Inconsistent judging - that's a root of all evil

karne · Nov 21, 2016

QuadThrow said:
Just Adam Rippon is maybe able to win medal without big conent, because his style is very exquisite and unique.

What? I think Jason Brown would like a word with you.

And if by "exquisite and unique" you mean "zero choreography but somehow getting big PCS anyway", then I guess you're right...

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 21, 2016

karne said:
And if by "exquisite and unique" you mean "zero choreography but somehow getting big PCS anyway", then I guess you're right...

One thing you can say about Adam is that he makes the most of his skill set. His results this calendar year are about as good as they could have been, given his technical limitations.

QuadThrow · Nov 22, 2016

karne said:
What? I think Jason Brown would like a word with you.

And if by "exquisite and unique" you mean "zero choreography but somehow getting big PCS anyway", then I guess you're right...

Of course it was my only wish to discredit Jason Brown and to push Adam Rippon with this post. That is the only reason I am writing so much in a language which is not my mother tongue.

All the haters should leave. They have never understood what a professional sport is about.

Tolstoj · Nov 22, 2016

To be fair ladies judging is not as bad the men: yes those edges and underrotations are not called consistently but that's it.

With the men the use of GOE for both jumps and spins is soooo random, also some of those quads are just like the triples for the ladies in the 90s: everything is accepted, who cares about the height and the distance. :sarcasm:

gkelly · Nov 22, 2016

Tolstoj said:
With the men the use of GOE for both jumps and spins is soooo random, also some of those quads are just like the triples for the ladies in the 90s: everything is accepted, who cares about the height and the distance. :sarcasm:

Any jump is "accepted" if it's rotated and landed on one foot. Height and distance are two qualities that can make a jump better than just acceptable, though not the only thing.

When it comes to quads, though, they all have good height -- they wouldn't be able to get the 4 rotations in otherwise.

brightphoton · Nov 22, 2016

Men: agree. I'm not a fan of lots of quads in programs. I think there's too much falling on attempts. Entire programs become this;

Crossover crossover crossover crossover
Set up for quad
Game face on
HHNNNNGGGHHHHHHHH
----
Dear God please please please ---
----
----
splat

Repeat 5 times

I really admire Adam for getting such high PCS and GOE with his programs, and working on his quad lutz. It's very pleasant when landed. His wounded bird choreography is moving to watch, and his club dance short program is really fun.

Ice dance: I only watch ice dance at US Nationals and I can't figure out why Meryl and Charlie score higher than the Shibs or why they score higher than Madison and her partner or some other team. Unless someone falls on a twizzle, they all kind of look the same. To this day, I don't know why Meryl and Charlie beat Tess and Scott. I've read some layman articles, and apparently Tess and Scott's style was outdated???? Or something??? Ice dance makes no sense to me. Might as well be a beauty pageant

The commentators don't really help either. Unlike ladies skating, the ice dancer elements are more subtle. I wish commentators would say each element is and if it's well done or not.

StitchMonkey · Nov 22, 2016

karne said:
What? I think Jason Brown would like a word with you.

And if by "exquisite and unique" you mean "zero choreography but somehow getting big PCS anyway", then I guess you're right...

Jason has had a quad in his short all year. Adam has not. Jason won't be winning quadless anymore. He will hopefully be winning with the big tricks now.

noskates · Nov 22, 2016

Bwah - I'm laughing out loud here at brightphoton's description of a man doing a quad. How true! How true!

The rest of this..............meh! Just someone else's opinions. Whether we agree with the judges or not - it is what it is and I think way too much time is spent criticizing them when someone's favorite doesn't make the podium or someone's least favorite does. The men, especially, seem to have 2 schools of thought - high GOE's or multiple quads. I'm in the high GOE camp. I want to see figure skating, not a jump fest.

Tolstoj · Nov 22, 2016

gkelly said:
Height and distance are two qualities that can make a jump better than just acceptable, though not the only thing.

Absolutely but acceptable is not a +3, is 0: just the bv.

When it comes to quads, though, they all have good height -- they wouldn't be able to get the 4 rotations in otherwise.

No, Shoma's quads are barely rotated, they are like Satoko's triples, how can you give +2 or even +3 for that? Even Javi's quads are just fine, not extraordinary (but i could accept more a positive goe for him, his jumps aren't that bad);

Same for the spins: acceptable is the bv, when you have fairly poor spins (no creativity or flexibility in those positions) but good enough to make the level 4, that's a 0 and this should be an equal treatment for all the skaters. How in this world Chan is receiving +3 for every spins, while Kolyada most of the time just a +2 for his combo spin with biellmann?

andromache · Nov 22, 2016

karne said:
What? I think Jason Brown would like a word with you.

And if by "exquisite and unique" you mean "zero choreography but somehow getting big PCS anyway", then I guess you're right...

I don't think "zero choreography" is the right characterization. There's an overall lack of blade-to-ice work going on in his programs, but his movements/posture are intentional and set a specific mood/idea/theme to his programs that goes very well with the music.

He could definitely be knocked on the "pattern and ice coverage" criteria of the choreography component, but I think he fulfills the other ones pretty well, particularly "purpose" and "originality of purpose, movement, design." I'm no expert, but his "unity" and "phrasing of form" seem strong as well - strong enough that viewers are willing to overlook the flaws in his skating due to the strength of these aspects of his choreography.

lappo · Nov 22, 2016

noskates said:
Bwah - I'm laughing out loud here at brightphoton's description of a man doing a quad. How true! How true!

The rest of this..............meh! Just someone else's opinions. Whether we agree with the judges or not - it is what it is and I think way too much time is spent criticizing them when someone's favorite doesn't make the podium or someone's least favorite does. The men, especially, seem to have 2 schools of thought - high GOE's or multiple quads. I'm in the high GOE camp. I want to see figure skating, not a jump fest.

I tend to consider myself in the high GOE camp too but, as of late, the way GOEs are awarded (and yes, awarded is used on purpose, my poor english is not to blame) makes me really think. As I said before, ISU should really produce a vademecum for judges of how TES and GOEs should be given: there is no way spins that are slower than my tortoise or travel from one side of the rink to the other should be scored the same way that beautiful, fast and CENTERED spins. Don't let me even get started with jumps.
Plus, as I said somewhere else, ISU should value combos differently to allow a higher BV for harder combos; in that way people (especially ladies) would be encouraged to try and learn this and gain TES in this way instead of racking points with other stuff. I think the beauty and coherence of the programs could be enhanced. And, one more thing, give points for the damn spiral! They are the most iconic move in FS, how come nowadays I have to watch Sasha or Michelle to see them?

Hevari · Nov 22, 2016

lappo said:
Plus, as I said somewhere else, ISU should value combos differently to allow a higher BV for harder combos; in that way people (especially ladies) would be encouraged to try and learn this and gain TES in this way instead of racking points with other stuff. I think the beauty and coherence of the programs could be enhanced. And, one more thing, give points for the damn spiral! They are the most iconic move in FS, how come nowadays I have to watch Sasha or Michelle to see them?

1000000% agree with you! There's time to give female skaters any other posibillities to gain points, except jumps.... Figure skating is not only about jumps and spiral became kinda like a symbol of figure skating (as well, as a Biellmann spin, by the way)

TMC · Nov 22, 2016

brightphoton said:
Crossover crossover crossover crossover
Set up for quad
Game face on
HHNNNNGGGHHHHHHHH
----
Dear God please please please ---
----
----
splat

Repeat 5 times

I can't

This is so true!

andromache · Nov 22, 2016

Hevari said:
1000000% agree with you! There's time to give female skaters any other posibillities to gain points, except jumps.... Figure skating is not only about jumps and spiral became kinda like a symbol of figure skating (as well, as a Biellmann spin, by the way)

In general elements besides jumps aren't rewarded enough. Ugly level 4 spins are barely rewarded more than gorgeous level 4 spins - and holding an aesthetically-pleasing position is way harder than an ugly one. How many more points does Yulia earn for her layback-biellman than Anna Pogorilaya? (Anna is my girl but her biellman makes me cringe.) Probably not enough points for how much better it is. If more spins were differentiated from each other and great ones were worth more, more skaters would work on them.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Nov 22, 2016

Tolstoj said:
How in this world Chan is receiving +3 for every spins, while Kolyada most of the time just a +2 for his combo spin with biellmann?

Firstly, Chan isn't receiving +3 for every spin.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpcan2016/gpcan2016_Men_FS_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpchn2016/gpchn2016_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

And Kolyada's Biellmann is just one position, and a rather strained position at that, so the difficulty is there but GOE = grade of execution. Chan has better centring, speed, and basic positions, hence the higher GOE even if he doesn't pull his leg above his head. A difficult position like a Biellmann is only good if it's executed well without looking strained or slowing down and actually lasting a good number of rotations (good examples: Jason Brown, Michael Christian Martinez, Maxim Miroshkin - http://i.imgur.com/BWLr8qT.gif; okay examples: Hanyu and Kolyada; bad example: Plushenko).

The great thing about scoring GOE on spins is that you can do various things to get levels - i.e. you don't HAVE to have a Biellmann to get level 4. Even Chartrand's Layback spin is a level 4 without a Biellmann because she does a change of edge in the haircutter (which itself is exceedingly difficult).

Jaana · Nov 22, 2016

StitchMonkey said:
Jason has had a quad in his short all year. Adam has not. Jason won't be winning quadless anymore. He will hopefully be winning with the big tricks now.

Yes, Brown has the quad on the list of his jumps, but I don´t think he has landed a fully rotated quad on one foot even once so far? And his triple axel rotations look questionable to me. Such a pity he was not in CoC....

Krunchii · Nov 22, 2016

From watching skating live, I realized the judges really really love speedy skaters, those who are fast tend to get high PCS while those who are not judges are less forgiving to. Should just rename skating skills to speed skills to be honest. Skaters who are experiencing a rise in scores this season are mostly the fast ones such as Kaetlyn Osmond and Iliushechkina/Moscovitch while those who are getting hammered are slower like Rika Hongo. Granted Kaetlyn and Lubov/Dylan are performing better than they did last year and improved their overall skating but so did sweet Rika and she's just getting buried.

Also with Ice Dance, teams will mess up the Twizzles and still get +GOE, like spare me judges.

Mrs. P · Nov 22, 2016

Jaana said:
Yes, Brown has the quad on the list of his jumps, but I don´t think he has landed a fully rotated quad on one foot even once so far? And his triple axel rotations look questionable to me. Such a pity he was not in CoC....

Yes it's a pity that he couldn't prove naysayers wrong by landings fully rotated jumps on one foot. :laugh:

To answer your question, however: He's landed the jump on one foot (albeit UR) and landed fully-rotated jumps he fell on. So it's a matter of time he does both. I guess YMMV whether that happens.

As for the 3A. He's been 5 for 6 (and with +GOE at that from the judging panels) and with three completely different technical panels -- so are you going to say that those three tech panels and judges are all wrong then?

Lombardia Trophy
Technical Controller Ms. Diana BARBACCI LEVY
Technical Specialist Ms. Katerina KAMBERSKA
Assistant Technical Specialist Ms. Tony Sabrina BOMBARDIERI

US Classic:
Technical Controller Ms. Sally REHORICK
Technical Specialist Evgeny MARTYNOV
Assistant Technical Specialist Mr. Gilberto VIADANA

Skate America
Technical Controller Ms. Julia ANDREEVA
Technical Specialist Mr. Fernand FEDRONIC
Assistant Technical Specialist Ms. Masako KAWAI

I guess it's a case of you see what you want to see.

Some more thoughts about judging

QuadThrow

Hevari

Drivers start your engines!

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

drivingmissdaisy

QuadThrow

Tolstoj

gkelly

brightphoton

StitchMonkey

noskates

Tolstoj

andromache

lappo

Hevari

Drivers start your engines!

TMC

andromache

CanadianSkaterGuy

Jaana

Krunchii

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

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