Who coined "Ice Princess" term?

louisa05 said:

I feel like I say this 50 times a year per skating forum, but have you seen photos of Gracie off ice? Over the top hair and make-up and sparkles and glitter and very feminine dressing comes completely naturally to her. It is her. She wears that same lipstick off the ice. I'm not sure why fans have created some uber-athletic never ever remotely girly personality for her because there is no evidence that is her at all. The only thing I can think is that when she is on she has powerful jumps, but big powerful jumps don't require a female skater to suddenly be strutting around all macho like Elvis Stojko. Nor does it require them to not like traditionally female things. Her jumps and her personality do not have to match.

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I suspect you've seen banquet photos and red carpet appearance photos which she dresses very nice in. I suspect a lot of that is the southern CA influence. When I present myself in public at work I always dress up, style my hair and wear makeup because that is the sounthern CA way.

Well, I always thought the term Princess was meant for younger skaters. Once they became Seniors, I usually call them Diva's. It is however, very subjective. I actually see Med as the Princess and Pogo as the Diva of the Russian Ladies. It doesn't really matter what their resume' says. This season, I see Leonova as the Queen of the Russian Ladies because she's the oldest and represents true longevity. The Princesses may steal the spotlight but, the queen is always there......I hope that made sense.

I think the term Ice Princess has many meanings pending the person using or coining the term. I am not sure it is so derrogative but used by some to describe what they as a certain style on and often off the. Feminine, graceful and well packaged to many. But sometimes if it there is a negative criticism is that the skater is not being who she is. However, arguably even when ie Jill TRenary won her 1990 world gold when y ou watch the program - non classical and dynamic she still comes off very feminine the way she dresses, make up, gesstures and pointed toes and all. IN my opinion most female skaters could fall int othe wide range of descriptions of ice princes maybe not Midori Ito, Surya Bonaly,Tonya Harding, Joannie Rochette. Liz Manley,Tracey Wainman - okay youtube is amazing - looked up this now coach she and Manley might be seen as more spritely, fireball. Debi Thomas might also not be deemed an ice princess. She spoke her mind and her skating showed huge power though she did have the traditional Miss American posture, hands and grace so she still might qualify under some people's defniition of Ice Princess. But skaters like Kwan still knew what to say to the media = well prepared, politically proper, measured and filtered Miss America like lol.

I think sometimes meanings are read into phrases that were not intended to be interpreted negatively. There was a time around Michelle's era where the up and comers were called "baby ballerinas" because of their diminutive stature. Seriously, there are more important things in the world than being called an ice princess. I always thought it was a good competitor with determination and nerves of steel. Like anything else, it's all in what you want to "see!"

louisa05 said:

Wherever it came from, it seems to be applied to any female skater that the person using it deems "too feminine" in any way whether it is in choice of music, dress or hairstyle. And it never seems to be used without a derogatory or insulting tone.

For that reason, I find it terribly misogynistic as the implication seems to be that women who choose traditionally feminine styles are less than and to be insulted.

It needs to go away.

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I agree, and it's so irritating because ice princess is and has always been a hugely complimentary teem for me.

To me it always meant a skater who is amazing and commands the ice while being beautiful not in a shallow physical way but just in that skating brings beauty.

noskates said:

I think sometimes meanings are read into phrases that were not intended to be interpreted negatively. There was a time around Michelle's era where the up and comers were called "baby ballerinas" because of their diminutive stature. Seriously, there are more important things in the world than being called an ice princess. I always thought it was a good competitor with determination and nerves of steel. Like anything else, it's all in what you want to "see!"

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You're totally right about this. In fact, Uncle Dick said....The Baby Ballerina's are taking over....Or something to the effect. I'll look for a clip.

Here are the B.ESP guys saying that Alissa Czisny is "Pretty As A Princess" You can hear in the tone of his voice that he truly means it as a compliment. I think it's all the context of the situation.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UZWjmyf9Hc

"Ice Princess" as a moniker is nothing new and was never intended to be derogatory. It just refers to young women who "rule the ice." In the same way Patrick Chan, Yuzuru Hanyu, and now Nathan Chen have all been referred to as Ice Princes.

sheetz said:

"Ice Princess" as a moniker is nothing new and was never intended to be derogatory. It just refers to young women who "rule the ice." In the same way Patrick Chan, Yuzuru Hanyu, and now Nathan Chen have all been referred to as Ice Princes.

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Correct....They said the same thing about Johnny Weir right after he became World Junior Champion back in 2001.

Uhm, lots of sensitivity around this.

I've been reluctant to comment as it seems that there is almost no way not to offend...

And the last time I said that there seems to be, on average, different cultural and generational perspectives on this kind of thing, I seemed to set off a fury..

But I don't feel that the comments made so far relate to to the way I am hearing the word used in the skating environment. So, I'll weigh in....

First off, I admit that I really don't find 'princess' a positive term that evokes female power. And I'm a unabashed feminist, and one that feels that beautiful women can be strong, fierce and powerful. Never bought into the idea that women should be obliged to give up beauty to be taken seriously in the professional environment, but also didn't feel that they should be obliged to compete on the basis of an older standard of beauty and femininity either.

[A 'princess' ideal evokes echos of earlier generations saying 'don't do that dear, you might get visible muscles and no one will want to date you....' Or don't sound too smart dear, men don't like to be shown up you know...' on one hand or 'don't wear make up or fashionable clothes or you won't be taken seriously' on the other]

In my recent experience, in the figure skating environment the term 'princess' often refers to a number of behaviour negatives in young female skaters. Often it is about a self-centred/absorbed, the world should make way for me attitude; covert and poisonous rivalry; and posturing that can come from the down side of individual sports and competition. That is, you really don't want your daughter to get a reputation as a 'princess' at your club. Some clubs have the reputation of encouraging this behaviour, while others really discourage it [especially the ones that develop pairs and dance teams]. That is, I've heard as a positive comment on a club: 'not a lot of princesses there.'

In this vein, 'princess' is being used in a way similar to the term 'Queen Bee', which was used by feminist writers to describe successful and powerful women who liked to be surrounded by male colleagues, but not female peers, and who didn't support young women coming up behind them. [Fair or not, Margaret Thatcher was given this label as an example.]

But I would distinguish this from 'diva' behaviour. 'Diva' also, has negative connotations of self absorption and drama, but also can have the positive connotation of being in control of one's sexuality [Katarina Witt comes to mind.] And in this sense, one can speak positively about 'playing the role of a diva' on the ice such as Anna Pogorilaya or Ashley Wagner have done, without implying anything about temperament or off-ice behaviour.

On GS by contrast, I see the term 'princessy' often used to describe a certain style of skating in junior ladies. It's not just the femininity, but rather a deliberate avoidance of anything that would suggest a strength or mature female power in relationships or anything else. It is not equivalent to skating like a ballerina, as many roles of primas are very powerful ones. While I totally get that many fans do not feel that it is appropriate to have girls in their mid-teens expressing overt and mature female roles, many of us find the 'princessy' skating a very limiting range of expression, and one that doesn't fit all young female skaters. It also seems to imply that young female skaters should be creating an illusion to hide their fierceness, strength and competitiveness. There are other solutions to the 'precocious maturity' problem for young female skaters.

I also hear about the idea of an "American skating/ice princess" ideal on GS, and how a 'princess' with an OGM is needed to revive the fan base. I can attest that this really seemed to be the focus of NBC and other US media coverage when I lived in the US. [As in endless 'who will be our next American skating princess????' comments] And it definitely isn't the question that Canadian fans ask about our up and coming female skaters so it's not universal. But not every American female skater is a fit for this ideal, and since I've been back in Canada, I wondered if it is doing a disservice to the fan base in the US. Not sure young American viewers really want that ideal...even if the notion of 'princess' has in some way transformed by Disney's empowerment of its princesses through time.

So, bottom line, my first reaction to 'princess' in the skating context isn't a positive one.

And frankly, I don't have a positive gut reaction to the term 'prince' for males either ---- but it's so rarely heard that I find it a real reach to bring it into this discussion at all.

........let the arrows come....

Ares said:

... Is there "ice prince" too by chance?

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FWIW, "The Ice Prince" is the title of this month's Time magazine article on Nathan Chen.


As discussed in other threads, the article is a positive profile on the occasion of Nathan's inclusion on Time's 2017 list of "Next Generation Leaders."

TGee said:

*whole post*

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With regard to feminism and women’s sports, I think that figure skating in America has yet to figure itself out.

Back in the day – say, the 1950s. 60s and 70s – figure skating was considered a women’s sport, if not, indeed, a girl’s sport. Any male who took up the sport was automatically gay. (This was back when gay was bad.) Even in the 1980s, the Ice Capades fired Scott Hamilton as a performer because, who would pay money to watch a man skating?

American audiences expected their girls to be girly. Beauty contests were big. Professional touring shows were essentially Las Vegas chorus lines on ice. The ideal was Janet Lynn, who was, if not the Ice Princess, at least the Ice Pixy.

http://www.papermags.com/productimages/newsweek/main/NW720214.jpg

(Hmm. She looks pregnant in this picture, but oh well. She was also the highest paid female athlete in the world, signing with Ice Capades for 1.5 million dollars. This was in 1973, back when 1.5 million dollars was real money. Not Sonja Henie movie-star money, but still…)

Times change. Cultural tastes evolve. The most important accelerant in the field of women’s sports was the Title Nine legislation in 1972. Every public high school and every college that received money from the federal government (which was all of them) had to provide equal sports opportunities for girls as for boys. Over the years this mandate was responsible for the creation of school sports programs in soccer tennis, golf, volleyball, basketball, swimming, track and field, you name it.

By the beginning of the twenty-first century, figure skating was left behind. Nowadays we like our women athletes to be fierce like our men athletes.

Indeed, as a spectator sport figure skating in America seems to be on the endangered species list. Society at large has matured beyond pretty girls in short skirts. We may even have a woman President one day. (OK, let's not get crazy here.) But figure skating has not been successful in replacing the concept of pretty girls in short skirts with anything of interest to the general sports-consuming public. I don’t know what the solution is.

ice coverage said:

FWIW, "The Ice Prince" is the title of this month's Time magazine article on Nathan Chen.

http://time.com/collection-post/4684920/nathan-chen-next-generation-leaders/ (Mar 2)​

As discussed in other threads, the article is a positive profile on the occasion of Nathan's inclusion on Time's 2017 list of "Next Generation Leaders."

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Yup, it's one US example of 'ice prince', but my sense is that the title was used as a contrasting reference to 'ice princess' which is the more usual American figure skating story, rather than a term that has meaning on its own.

And while I agree that it's a really positive profile, I generally wouldn't read much into the choice of title....especially as that the 'ice prince' meme is not referenced in the article as far as I can see. In fact, the article is mainly about how Chen is taking a different path from recent US skaters by looking to top international competitors and going for the technical prowess.

[As you likely are aware from your own experience in media, the folks writing the headlines/titles don't often check in with whoever has the by-line.]

ice coverage said:

In fairness to chapis, I will mention:

Gracie Gold has said that when she first became aware -- as a young teen -- that she was being called an "ice princess," she did not realize that the phrase could have negative connotations.
I don't remember Gracie's exact comments, but the general drift was along the lines that she associated "princess" with positive qualities -- elegance, refinement, beauty, etc.
She took the "ice" part simply to be a reference that she is a skater. Not as a reference to "coldness" in the sense of "lack of genuine feeling/emotion."

It was a wake-up call for her when she came to realize that some people were using the term as a form of criticism against her .

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I never thought of "Ice princess" as having a negative connotation. Ice Queen on the other hand. And no, not with Yuna. It's the most un-ice related sport one could imagine, that has got the athlete with that title. The ever popular among fans, yet very unpopular amongst her colleagues, MARIA SHARAPOVA. I've also heard her being called an ice maiden. And she has no problem with it herself. hwell:

TGee said:

Yup, it's one US example of 'ice prince', but my sense is that the title was used as a contrasting reference to 'ice princess' which is the more usual American figure skating story, rather than a term that has meaning on its own.

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Although, in his LP costume, Nathan does look like he is auditioning either for the role of the Nutcracker Prince or else Prince Chulalongkorn in the King and I.

http://www.goldenskate.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Nathan-Chen-1-300x195.jpg

TGee said:

Yup, it's one US example of 'ice prince', but my sense is that the title was used as a contrasting reference to 'ice princess' which is the more usual American figure skating story, rather than a term that has meaning on its own.

And while I agree that it's a really positive profile, I generally wouldn't read much into the choice of title....especially as that the 'ice prince' meme is not referenced in the article as far as I can see. In fact, the article is mainly about how Chen is taking a different path from recent US skaters by looking to top international competitors and going for the technical prowess.

[As you likely are aware from your own experience in media, the folks writing the headlines/titles don't often check in with whoever has the by-line.]

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LOL, my post -- which began with "FWIW" -- was *not* in reaction to anything in your post from yesterday, TGee.
It was only by chance that my post happened to fall within the thread as the next one after yours.
I was giving a simple FWIW reply to the OP, and thus I had quoted the OP. (Had not quoted you, and had no reason to -- b/c my post was not prompted by your post.)
I was not reading anything into the title of the Nathan article.

Lest you wonder, TGee, below is the chronology of how my post last night came about. I know that everyone else could not care less , but to assure you:

Warwick360 said:

I never thought of "Ice princess" as having a negative connotation...

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I think I agree with this. As it pertains to figure skaters, I think it is intended (by newspaper writers, biographers, etc.), to mean just the young lady at the top of the heap.

What does have a negative connotation (on Internet fan boards like this one, for instance) is the adjective "princessy." Princessy is prissy -- it even sounds like prissy. The opposite of princessy is "fierce."

Fierce is good, especially in nicknmes like "The Fierce Five" for the US women's gymnastics team at the 2012 Olympics. They wanted to be the "Fab Five," but that was already taken by the 1991 University of Michigan men's basketball team.

I guess the moral of the story is that men are fabulous, women are fierce.

Ares said:

... and when?

I am curious as I saw this term being applied to skaters mostly from USA, with Nancy Kerrigan being the earliest one & Michelle Kwan being her heir in that place even though they were very different skaters.

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I remember hearing the term "ice princess" used in connection with Carol Heiss as she won the Olympic gold medal in 1960. It was in a movie theater where non-stop news-reels were played in English (with Finnish text).

Here her freeskate performance from 1960 Nationals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpKNkVpDORs

With her the term "ice-princess" really fitted, in my opinion and not with later US skaters.