Axel jump and pole harness question

Hi, I'm currently working on single axel with my coach and I've been prepping for it for a while. My biggest problem is I can't get the rotation in the air, my leg won't snap into a backspin position fast enough before I reach the ice. It's been frustrating me a lot and all the exercises on ice like waltz-loop, waltz-backspin, forward spin -hop to backspin, backspin loop didn't really help solve the problem.
I can do full rotation off ice and it's clean 95% off the time and the air position is nice and tight
So my coach put me in the harness. I completed 1.5 rotations on all attempts but i fell on the ice every time (which I don't mind because my coach tells me I don't know when to stop rotating yet).
So here goes the harness question; (it's the pole harness btw) if you have enough time, how does it ACTUALLY works ?
Does it help you rotate? Or does all the rotation comes merely from the skater?
Am I only completing all the rotation because my coach holds me in the air for longer ?
(I'm 125 lbs If that helps)
When I try the axel again I went back to the same problem, not being able to cross my legs. I need some opinions and / or tips here( or actually, anything would be helpful!)

Thanks so much!
FYI; I'm a college student if that helps you answer my question at all haha. I've been skating for awhile but stopped but I'm confident to say that I'm fit and my skating skills (stroking/ edges) are pretty good as I also put a lot of emphasis on that

The pole harness (or any harness) does not help you rotate. Its purpose is to give you a chance to go for the jump without worrying about a bad fall (since your coach will pull up and keep you from falling hard). The coach may also pull a little to give you extra height so you can feel what it would be like to complete the rotation if you had more time in the air. I find that aspect not to be very useful, though, since you will need to create that height yourself in real life.
The difference between doing an axel on the floor in sneakers and doing one in skates on the ice is that you need more height when you do the axel on the ice. The big, heavy skates make it harder to get into a tight rotational position, so you need to make the whole thing bigger to compensate for the slower rotation.
The best exercise I've ever found for jumping UP and getting into rotational position with the right timing is the bench exercise. Find a secured bench or other stable surface at your rink that is about knee height. Stand in front of it facing sideways, with your left side facing the bench and right side facing away from the bench. Stand on your right foot as though you've just landed a jump on your RBO edge. Put your left toe on the floor for balance. Now bring your left foot to your right ankle, look toward the bench, then step down onto the left foot and do a high waltz jump onto the bench, landing backward on the right foot with your left leg in FRONT in an open loop jump or backspin position and your arms rounded in front of you. You should be fully backward by the time you land on the bench, not finishing the half turn on the bench. Practice this until you can land fully backward with control.
After mastering this weight transfer exercise, do the same thing on the open floor,but once you get into that backward position, pull the arms and free leg in to complete the axel. With the increased jump height, you will need to adjust your timing and work to stay tall in the air as you wait for the landing, since you're used to less air time. After mastering this bigger axel on the floor, try it on the harness with no pulling from your coach. Then try it without the harness. This is how I got my axel.

Harness doesn't help you rotate faster, it might help you get less bruises.

Ender said:

Harness doesn't help you rotate faster, it might help you get less bruises.

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Haha that's funny. I know it's supposed to do that but my coach doesn't try to help me "not fall" at all

Annelegato said:

Haha that's funny. I know it's supposed to do that but my coach doesn't try to help me "not fall" at all

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I've never been on a pole harness, but from observing other skaters use it, instead of falling with a force of, says 3G, you may be falling with less force, say 2G (just for illustration) . Meaning, less bruises and less injury.

Whereas for the other kind of harness (that's connected to a cable through a pulley... what are they called again?), your coach can literally lift you off the ground and hold you dangling in mid-air. I've used those (and utterly detest them).

Chickened out on axel last minute (help?)

HI, it's me again. I've been working on single axel with my coach both on and off pole harness.
Yesterday was actually my second lesson on a harness. The first time I did fine I was rotating enough and had a nice backspin position in the air.
But yesterday was bad (oops). My coach said that I didn't get into backspin position fast enough, like I was taking too much time to get into it.
He also said that even when I tried my body was loose in the air and I was crouching.
I think the problem is the first time I did fine because I just did what I was to ld to do but the second I know what it's like to be in a harness and to actually "feel" the rotation.
I think that's why I got scared and it's been a problem because I really like doing axel and harness of ice but on ice I just froze.
It's not like I'm totally like oh I can't do this, I can't jump or move my legs; it's not like that.
But when my coach put a harness on me and told me to do an axel I just looked at him and frowned
I don't think it is super serious but my coach told me it's all in my head but I think it's not that bad (yet) (I'm pretty sure I've heard worse stories about being to scared to jump)
I used to be fine I really like jumping I know I have to put work into it and actually "jump"
but I think the fact that I know how it feels like to spin really fast in the air scared me a bit.
what do I do? any tips? mental preparation/ psychological prep? have any of you guys gone through this before? I have another lesson on Friday
for a side note, after I fail to jump several times my coach took me off ice to work with harness (he was trying to have me tighten up my body as much as possible, we did multiple rotations in the air and multiple rotations-axel). I did fine

thanks!

HI, it's me again. I've been working on single axel with my coach both on and off pole harness.
Yesterday was actually my second lesson on a harness. The first time I did fine I was rotating enough and had a nice backspin position in the air.
But yesterday was bad (oops). My coach said that I didn't get into backspin position fast enough, like I was taking too much time to get into it.
He also said that even when I tried my body was loose in the air and I was crouching.
I think the problem is the first time I did fine because I just did what I was to ld to do but the second I know what it's like to be in a harness and to actually "feel" the rotation.
I think that's why I got scared and it's been a problem because I really like doing axel and harness of ice but on ice I just froze.
It's not like I'm totally like oh I can't do this, I can't jump or move my legs; it's not like that.
But when my coach put a harness on me and told me to do an axel I just looked at him and frowned
I don't think it is super serious but my coach told me it's all in my head but I think it's not that bad (yet) (I'm pretty sure I've heard worse stories about being to scared to jump)
I used to be fine I really like jumping I know I have to put work into it and actually "jump"
but I think the fact that I know how it feels like to spin really fast in the air scared me a bit.
what do I do? any tips? mental preparation/ psychological prep? have any of you guys gone through this before? I have another lesson on Friday
for a side note, after I fail to jump several times my coach took me off ice to work with harness (he was trying to have me tighten up my body as much as possible, we did multiple rotations in the air and multiple rotations-axel). I did fine

thanks!

It helps me when I struggle with jumps to go back to breaking them down off ice - so for my axel it's doing a 3 jump - loop jump, working on the transition into the back spin position at the barre, and then just putting it all together to do axels off ice - no harness, just working on how it feels to get the air position and full rotation before I try to do it on the ice again. Obviously this should all be done with the supervision of your coach, but if you don't already do off ice jumping (especially without the harness) I'd really suggest asking if you can work on that.

And tell your coach if you're nervous or scared of doing it on ice - if they are any good, they will help you break it all down instead of just insisting you keep pushing at it in the same way. The last thing you want to do is develop a mental block on this jump because they are only giving you one way to try it.

uhh said:

Trying to be more helpful than Ic3Rabbit - it helps me when I struggle with jumps to go back to breaking them down off ice - so for my axel it's doing a 3 jump - loop jump, working on the transition into the back spin position at the barre, and then just putting it all together to do axels off ice - no harness, just working on how it feels to get the air position and full rotation before I try to do it on the ice again. Obviously this should all be done with the supervision of your coach, but if you don't already do off ice jumping (especially without the harness) I'd really suggest asking if you can work on that.

And tell your coach if you're nervous or scared of doing it on ice - if they are any good, they will help you break it all down instead of just insisting you keep pushing at it in the same way. The last thing you want to do is develop a mental block on this jump because they are only giving you one way to try it.

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I can do off ice axel by myself no problem. I even do it A LOT before I go on ice, and yes, my coach made me go all the way back to breaking down the steps like waltz-back spin and really fast backspin. I still couldn't do it :noshake:

This is exactly my issue! Try making the jump tiny. Make sure you get a lot of height but you jump up and land in roughly the same place. Also when doing axels off ice have a code word ride before you jump. Apparently it helps training your body to react to a word instead of thinking about fear.

Yeah I was going to say it sounds like you are trying to jump too "big". Height doesn't help you if you don't have control. And it sounds as if you are jumping too "straight." There should be a slight curve off the circle when you take off. Probably slow down too. Have you tried it with your coach from standstill (on ice)? Or a short entry? Good luck

posha said:

Yeah I was going to say it sounds like you are trying to jump too "big". Height doesn't help you if you don't have control. And it sounds as if you are jumping too "straight." There should be a slight curve off the circle when you take off. Probably slow down too. Have you tried it with your coach from standstill (on ice)? Or a short entry? Good luck

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Yes! Right now I am doing an entry like a one foot spin and up then rotate. I've been doing off Ice with and without harness with my coach before we get on ice. It's been helping a lot. Now my problem is I landed two-footed (still on a harness). Any tips? I might need few more sessions until I can digest this but my coach had me do back spin hop up and exit and some waltz- backspin. But do you guys have any tips when actually going into the jump? Like , what do you think about or what do you tell yourself before you jump to land correctly on one foot?

Some of us are natural jumpers and some of us are not. I learned it by simply throwing myself and hoping for the best (Also, I couldn't afford lessons). No matter what, I believe and have seen everyone learn to do the axel it just takes time. There are skaters who overthink everything. I did try the harness once for the double axel and that did not help me, after two years and a gazillion falls I was able to hit them.

If you are landing two-footed, it means you are not keeping your weight over the right side properly. You need to spring up forward, turn the right hip in and *straighten the right leg while lifting the left thigh*. And then you need to stay pulled up tall in the air with your left thigh lifted and *closed) until your right foot contacts the ice. There's one of these things that you are not doing properly. The other possibility is that you are curling your takeoff edge too much or releasing the right side too early on takeoff, which keeps you rotating over the left sde in the air instead of allowing you to get over the right side. Can you post a video of your jump?

Hey!!! Update!!! I landed nicely on harness but off harness I'm still two footed! Looking forward to practice them a lot more now!

That's great!! Keep at it!

MORE UPDATES! it seems like I'm landing more but only with a harness on me (but no support or lifting from my coach at all). So I'm basically jumping by myself. But when I actually take the harness off I couldn't do it .. oh no . I can't seem to keep my position for the whole time in the air ( so I guess I popped it every time and only did one rotation). My coach put a harness back on with the same thing, he did not lift me up when I jump or try to hold me up when I land. I just land normally but sometimes fall with a complete rotation.
Helps, tips, advice?
I'm looking to get back next week while thinking that I will go into the jump and stay in a backspin position when I land. Maybe that helps. My coach is telling me if I think I can do it then I can but well ... I think it's a littile more psychologically complicated than that....
Also, I don't think I am 100% afraid to jump without a harness because I know my coach doesn't support me anymore when I use them. But I must say .... it's probably ,,,what they call "mental crutch"? I'm cool with falling but I think there's something going in my head that stops me from staying tight in that backspin position

I'm not a fan of the harness (it messes up my timing) but what has helped me with the axel when I start bailing on it early is going back to the prep exercises and doing them in order- backspin, waltz backspin, backspin-loop, waltz-loop-backspin. After that I go right to the axel. This has helped me a lot.

Good luck! A lot of it is mental but I've found going back to the axel prep exercise let's me trick myself into going for the axel without overthinking it.

Give yourself time too - it can take over 6 months to feel good about axel and another 6 to land it in a competition cleanly. For the harness, my kid's coaches don't use it until they have worked on a jump a long while and when it is on, they get 2-4 tries and it comes off and they work on it unassisted for the rest of the lesson. By limiting tries on the harness, they don't rely on it mentally - it is just to work on one part/error of the jump. Some coaches use the harness for over half the jump lesson. Everyone is different. Good luck!!!!

Seren said:

I'm not a fan of the harness (it messes up my timing) but what has helped me with the axel when I start bailing on it early is going back to the prep exercises and doing them in order- backspin, waltz backspin, backspin-loop, waltz-loop-backspin. After that I go right to the axel. This has helped me a lot.

Good luck! A lot of it is mental but I've found going back to the axel prep exercise let's me trick myself into going for the axel without overthinking it.

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My coach has me do that too (waltz-backspin) but I think it's different coz I need to create momentum going into the axel so I'm not a big fan of that i feel like it's more of a walk through. But thanks tho!