John Curry

During my workout today I was watching my "Olympic Figure Skating Greatest Performances In History" volume I dvd. On it is John Curry's 1976 Olympic gold medal skate. I've watched this before but this is the first time that I noticed Curry spinning (camels and sitspins) in both directions. That got me thinking about todays skaters and wondering why we don't see skaters doing spins and for that matter jumps in different directions then what they would normally do.
Would doing spins in both directions add points to a skaters score? With the COP how would that be judged?

I imagine that judges give better GOE's on opposite-direction spins. Are they a higher level? I think that an spin in the opposite direction should be a level 2 spin.
Maybe an opposite-direction jump could have +.5-+1 added to it?

dlkksk8fan said:

During my workout today I was watching my "Olympic Figure Skating Greatest Performances In History" volume I dvd. On it is John Curry's 1976 Olympic gold medal skate. I've watched this before but this is the first time that I noticed Curry spinning (camels and sitspins) in both directions. That got me thinking about todays skaters and wondering why we don't see skaters doing spins and for that matter jumps in different directions then what they would normally do.
Would doing spins in both directions add points to a skaters score? With the COP how would that be judged?

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Actually, many skaters from that time era were encouraged to do their jumps and spins in both directions; it was thought at the time that skaters would develop both sides of their body better and maintain a more balanced physique.

Karen Magnussen of Canada was another skater from that time period who learned to jump and spin in both directions. Karen often would do a camel spin to the left and then another one to the right. I always thought it looked great.

I noticed in the last competition I watched skaters are developing this technique again. I think it shows greater form and good edge control when skaters do this. Since the demise of figures it is important for the skaters to develop in both directions - clockwise and counterclockwise.

Great question.

COP says for both Combination and Change foot spins

Strictly speaking, the way that clockwise/counter clockwise spins are taken into account is that caller ups the Level of difficulty. However, just being in both directions is not enough to lift a spin from level 1 to level 2. You need 2 other features in addition to clockwise/counterclockwise. To get level 3, you need 3 additional features.

"Spins in both directions: Execution of of spins in both directions (clockwise and counterclockwise) that immediately follow each other will be rewarded by counting this as an additional feature in Level 2 and Level 3 spins for every spin performed.
At least 3 rotations must be completed in each direction

To be Level 2 in a Change foot spin, a spin must have 3 of the following features:
At least one difficult variation
Performed with at least 2 changes of foot (not in SP)
Performed in both directions, clockwise and counterclockwise
Flying or backward entrance
Spin performed on both edges of one foot

To be Level 3 in a change foot spin, a spin must have 4 of the following features
At least two difficult variations
Flying or backward entrance
Two or more changes of foot, not in SP
Spin performed on both edges of one foot
Balance in regard to the number of revolutions for each position
Performed in both directions, clockwise and counterclockwise

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Also Janet Lynn used to do spins in both directions. It was definitely more common to see this back in the 1970's and probably earlier.

Today, Klimkin does a clockwise/counterclockwise camel into a 3salchow. And Rohene Ward does spins and jumps in both directions.

Michelle spins in both diretions.

John Misha Petkevich, whom I never saw skate, used to spin in both diretions, from what I read.

Spinning in both directions is equivalent to writing well with both hands. Naturally, it is very difficult and very few can do it.

Vash

FWIW, I have heard that Curry originally used to spin and jump in different directions. When he went to work with Carlo Fassi, Fassi insisted that he learn to spin in the same direction that he jumped, because it would help his jumps.

dr.frog said:

FWIW, I have heard that Curry originally used to spin and jump in different directions. When he went to work with Carlo Fassi, Fassi insisted that he learn to spin in the same direction that he jumped, because it would help his jumps.

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Totally true. He naturally spun clockwise but jumped the "normal" anti clockwise way, so Fassi had him go to Gus Lussi who taught him to spin anti clockwise too. This speeded up his air revolutions therefore making his triple jumps much more secure. Of all the skaters I've seen spin in differnt directions John was by far the best. He had equal speed on both sides and his opposite direction sitspin combo in 1976 had diffrent positions which I'm sure would easily get +2 under CoP today. Robin Cousins also spun in both directions extremely well, especially in the camel position.

In ballet, a dancer MUST do everything to both the left and right, and I think that was why Curry demanded his corps de patinage had to spin in both directions. Choreographers don't want to create according to one personality.

Curry was the most unique individual skater ever. I don't want to hear about quads.

Joe

Curry insisted that members of his own ice dance company spin and do basic jumps in both directions, as if they were in a ballet company. He considered this a given, and it's one of the reasons that his basic company members consisted mainly of skaters that weren't national champions or World contenders, but some of whom, became well-known choreographers. He didn't impose this rule on guests, such as Hammill, but they didn't just come in and skate their own numbers: he commissioned Laura Dean to choreograph for Hammill, for example.

Spinning in both directions

I understand the concept of spinning in both directions to be similar to switch hitting in baseball or writing with both hands, but it is really like using both your hands to play the piano. In terms of judging, a camel spin to the right with 4 revolutions is a camel spin. A camel spin to the left with 4 revolutions is...um.....also a camel spin. A skater linking these two is doing a combination spin, which is great, but both camels are just camels, and have to be judged as such.

I think spinning in both directions should boost the SS, Ch, In and composition marks, the old "presentation" mark, to earn points. This is where such versatility should be rewarded.

I'm going to say that spinning in both directions is not that impressive. Most of the coaches at my rink can demonstrate moves and spins in both directions (the basic stuff) and I would think that ice dancers would be able to spin in both directions, as they need to develop that skill anyway for ice dancing. And in terms of developing complex Lucinda like spins in both directions, is it really worth the trouble to do that. It's probably better to develop a great spin (which I don't see a lot of skaters having) in one direction before adding a spin in another direction.

I absolutely loved Curry´s skating the moment I saw it for the first time in early seventies. The balletic beauty and easiness in all he did on the ice, was sooo awesome! As I have mentioned earlier, in my opinion his Olympic freeskate programme and choreography did not at all come close to his earlier really great freeskate programmes.

Marjaana

Spinning in both directions to the SAME level of difficulty is extremely hard. As a former dancer myself and a natural "turner" as they call it in the business, I always had a better side for turning. It's extremely rare that anyone has equal ability in both directions, no matter how hard they train at it!

Hand dexterity

Yes, a person who plays a piano with both hands... but ever notice that the treble is on the right and the bass is on the left? Or that the fingering on a clarinet is designed to give the most work to the right hand?

I can go on... a sewing machine is designed with the head to the left so that you handle the material with your right hand. Your car has the brake and gas under your right foot.

A left handed person adapts to these... and will learn to write with the opposite hand quicker than a right handed person in the event of an injury to the hand.

Ambidexturous tendencies, right-handed or left-handed tendencies are all genetic. To develop opposite abilities takes a concerted effort. When a skater has to work on triple-triples or quads, it requires yet more training time to develop a spin or a jump in the direction that is not natural to them.

I believe that opposite direction spins or jumps should be well rewarded.

BTW, Micheangelo was left handed. It was thought to be a sign of the devil. One of his motivations for painting the Sistine Chapel was to prove that his left-handed painting was not an instrument of Satin.

Linny

Linny said:

Ambidexturous tendencies, right-handed or left-handed tendencies are all genetic.
...
BTW, Micheangelo was left handed. It was thought to be a sign of the devil.

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True, but studies have shown that left-handed people are far more likely to be ambidexturous than right-handed. Also, being forced to write with the "wrong" hand has consequences. In USSR, kids were not allowed to be left-handed. It was considered a sign of some kind of perversion or something, so everyone was forced to write with their right hand. One consequence is a lot of dyslexics, since forcing a person to use the wrong part of the brain messes up things like sense of direction and the like.

Guess I've heard differently

Guess I've heard differently than Pitchka... what I've heard is that dyslexia is not related to right-handed or left-handed or ambidextourous... and that it occurs in the same percentages of right-handed people as it does in left-handed people. Perhaps someone with expertise can weigh in.

Yes, there were many schools where, for the sake of conformity, the students were all required to write with their right hands. My father might have been left handed, but was forced to write with his right hand. He is not dyslexic, but has HORRID hand writing. However, because this change-over occured at such a young age, he is truly a right-handed person. For example, if you throw a ball at him unexpectedly, he will automatically put up his right hand.

You can look for right-handed or left-handed tendencies in infants, long before they ever hold a pen. Simply roll a toy towards a baby sitting on the floor and see which hand they reach out with. Some infants show a strong preference from the first time they start reaching for toys... but there are environmental factors, too. If the crib is against the wall and the wall side is on the right, and there is a mobile hanging on the left, it can affect early experience... but I'm not an expert in early childhood development, either.

Left handers can do things with greater dexterity with their right hand than right-handers can do with the left hand. This is an environmental factor caused by a left- hander's being forced to do things like sew on a sewing machine with their right hand. However, this right handed dexterity by left handers does not make them ambidexterous. There are actual physical differences within the brain between lefties/righties and bothies.

There is also the environmental factor of mimicry. Children often learn by mimicing others. A young skater out on the ice for his/her first group lessons may do her first mohawks and waltz jumps by imitating peers or the teacher. If the greater percentage of peers and teachers turn a certain direction, the first skating skills will be in that direction.

I'd be interested in knowing when a guy like Todd first figured out that he would excel if he turned in the opposite direction.

Linny

Linny said:

Guess I've heard differently than Pitchka... what I've heard is that dyslexia is not related to right-handed or left-handed or ambidextourous...

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Perhaps I didn't make myself too clear. All I meant was that dyslexia often results from left-handed people being forced to use their right hand.

My father might have been left handed, but was forced to write with his right hand. He is not dyslexic, but has HORRID hand writing.

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Same here. I was forced to use my right, and it's certainly my dominant hand. My hand writing is as bad as it gets, and always was so (I am so lucky to be able to use computer). While I've never been diagnosed with dyslexia, I have many of the same symptoms. For instance, I've always had difficulty with "right" and "left" concept; to this day it often takes me a second to figure out where to go when I'm told to go left.

Dyslexia versus right-left challenged

No offense meant, none taken, Pitchka. Dyslexia is a much misunderstood learning challenge.

When you have trouble figuring out your right from your left, it is probably not a symtom of dyslexia. Seems like, from your writing, that you are also a pretty good reader... and in two languages, right? You probably don't have dyslexia, just need a minute to figure out your right from your left.

You probably don't spin both directions, either. But your responses serve to highlight my original contention that a spin in the opposite direction should be given extra credit. In this area, I agree with the current CoP rule.

Linny

dlkksk8fan said:

During my workout today I was watching my "Olympic Figure Skating Greatest Performances In History" volume I dvd. On it is John Curry's 1976 Olympic gold medal skate. I've watched this before but this is the first time that I noticed Curry spinning (camels and sitspins) in both directions. That got me thinking about todays skaters and wondering why we don't see skaters doing spins and for that matter jumps in different directions then what they would normally do. Would doing spins in both directions add points to a skaters score? With the COP how would that be judged?

Click to expand...

I remember John Curry's 1976 Olympic gold medal winning long program. It was stunning, gorgeous, elegant, and athletic. I was surprised that the judges did not award him a straight line of 6.0s for presentation. Yes, John performed the camel spin in both directions. Other skaters, such as Michelle Kwan, also spin in both directions, but they don't perform their spins with the kind of ease and perfection that Curry did, IMHO. What a great skater John was!

It was a tragedy that Curry contracted AIDS and passed away from that disease in the early 1990s. I recall seeing a photograph of him sitting in his pajamas in a London hospital (probably around 1991 or so). He was obviously very sick and thin, yet he had a warm smile for the camera.

Ptichka said:

In USSR, kids were not allowed to be left-handed. It was considered a sign of some kind of perversion or something, so everyone was forced to write with their right hand.

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That happened to my grandmother as a child. She is Romanian and I wonder if they felt the same way. Her teacher actually tied her left hand behind her back and to the chair so that she had to write with her right hand.