"Front Loading"

Matt · Dec 18, 2004

OK, so I've been downloading figure skating videos from the Internet again, and I came across the 1992 Albertville LP of Midori Ito. I could remember watching the 1992 Olys and that Midori won the silver, but I watched it again to refresh my memory (I was 5, after all). The 3axel.....by a woman.....3:10 seconds into the programme ....blew me completely out of the water.

Which got me thinking (always dangerous, lol): pretty much every programme we watch by th big names in figure skating today is "front loaded" or with the really BIG jumps and combos at the beginning so they can get them out of the way faster. I suppose it's somewhat understandable with stuff like quad combos, etc. but what happened? What happened to the days when halfway through the programme people threw crazy stuff like a 3axel and landed it. For Midori, sitting in 4th place, throwing that 3axel was what got her on the podium.

For what I can tell, with things like the 3quad programmes and certain hard jumps being worth more if they come in the middle of the programme under CoP (somebody please explain that one to me), it's getting more varied, but my question is: where did this idea of front loading come from, why does everybody in the world do it, and how (if at all) are we going to get past it?

soogar · Dec 18, 2004

People always frontloaded programs. I wasn't so impressed with Midori's Olympic program b.c after she missed the first triple axel, she practically sleepwalked though almost the whole program until she tried and hit that second triple axel. I bet she was thinking that if she didn't go for it, she wouldn't get a medal at all. What was cool was that she woke up and nailed a bunch of jumps after the triple axel.

I think people are too nitpicky about frontloading. A quad takes a lot of energy and it makes sense to do them at the beginning of the program. I don't really care if the skater puts all of the jumps in the first 2 minutes of the program as long as they do something else other than stroking and crossovers in the last two minutes. As long as the skater loads the program with something, I don't really care if it happens in the beginning or the end.

ChiSk8Fan · Dec 18, 2004

Midori---the "anti-" front loader

Midori never front loaded anything, even without the triple axel. Her programs used to have a triple toe-triple toe combination at the 3:00 mark, and a triple salcow out of footwork after that, and often ended with two falling leaf jumps in sequence right into double axel. Her middle section had her magnificent triple loop, and the beginning was a 3 lutz, a 3 flip and a 2axel into 3 salcow combination. Very well balanced sections with 3 jumping passes early, one middle and three at the end.

Kristi Yamaguchi never front loaded. She had her 3 lutz, 3 flip and 3 toe all in the first section, the middle section with the two edge triples of loop and salcow, and the ending with a 3 lutz and 3 toe again.

Michelle Kwan doesn't front-load her programs. The lutz, toe loop (or combination) and loop in the first section, the 3 flip and 3 salcow in the middle, and a 3 lutz and 2axel in the last section (sometimes 2 axel always after 3 flip) or another 3 toe loop at the end.

Chen Lu never front loaded. Once she even back/end loaded her program. Her Cappricio Espagnol program had a lutz and toe in the first section, the loop and salcow in the second, another lutz and two triple flips (one in combination) and 2 axel at the end.

Front loading as always been frowned upon by coaches, judges and skaters. Now, CoP rewards spacing out the hard jumps to guide the sport away from front loading. It might lead to end loading, actually, especially with 3 axels with the Men.

Imagine Plushenko doing his two quads (one with 4-3-3) early, and then doing the 3axel-half flip-3flip and a second 3 axel at the end of the program! Those would have the point value of quad combinations! His marks with outstanding GOE would be enormous and impossible to beat (but could be matched) technically.

Skaters will have to excel in stamina to maximize the CoP and this rule can change the sport as we know it. Programs will be more exciting if some of the really hard "game winning" elements are in the last sections of programs. How exciting it would be if a top ranked skater kept their hardest jump combination for the end of the program. Everyone would hold their breath and wait with anticipation.

If I was a competitor, I would try this out as a way to build excitement and points if I was weaker in presentation, etc. Li of China might consider this, but stamina is the key issue, and it would lift his skating a level in excitement. He does great jumps early and his programs fizzle out, for example.

Sasha Cohen front loads, which is dangerous because if a skater has problems with the jumps, the program deflates like a shot balloon because there is nothing later in the program to rebound into, especially in terms of the harder jumps. Many times her programs fall apart artistically because of the jump errors and subsequent deflating of emotion and time for disappointment to sink in and overwhelm the program and the audience and Sasha herself.

Front loading is not good for programs, it seems. A gutsy competitor will hopefully change things up a little by trying to push the envelope.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 18, 2004

I hope this not taken as a bias but for me, front loading is a Russian strategy. That seems to be part of the Russian coaches teachings. I think it might be to get the hard stuff out of the way so as to relax the skater for the rest of his/her program, which should be remembered for flow, transitions, footwork and a quick triple toe to remind them of the upfront jumps.

Joe

RIskatingfan · Dec 18, 2004

It's more a problem of Russian skaters, than Russian coaches... they're not famous for their stamina. It must have something to do with their training regimen because male Russian skaters always seem to have problems with stamina. Abt, Kulik, Urmanov were never known for their remarkable stamina. Plushenko always frontloads his programs terribly. Yagudin used to ran out of steam close to the end of the programs and always had huge troubles when he skated in altitude, to the point of needing oxygen in the end of the programs.

I remember an interview about the time Joubert spent in Simsbury over the summer... Yagudin noted how impressed he was that Joubert could do a quad-triple combination almost in the middle of the program and could still land a bunch of jumps after that since a Russian skater couldn't do that, he'd would jump, pause, jump, pause. It's a very telling comment IMO.

Eeyora · Dec 19, 2004

I rememberr when Michelle burst on to the scene she was compared to Kristi Yamaguchi for putting her triple lutz at the end of the program.

Vash01 · Dec 19, 2004

Joesitz said:
I hope this not taken as a bias but for me, front loading is a Russian strategy. That seems to be part of the Russian coaches teachings. I think it might be to get the hard stuff out of the way so as to relax the skater for the rest of his/her program, which should be remembered for flow, transitions, footwork and a quick triple toe to remind them of the upfront jumps.

Joe

It could be a Russian strategy to front load a program. Shizuka's LP at 2004 worlds was magnificent but most of her jumps were in the first half.In fact I don't think she did a triple jump in the last one minute. I can understand doing the most difficult jumps in the beginning though. They take the most energy, so a skater would not want to risk doing them in the second half when he/she is tired. I have seen the Chinese skaters do quads in the second half of the LP, but they sometimes miss the easier triple jumps. Cheng Jiang Li is a good example. Arturn Dmitriev and both his pairs partners front loaded the programs, and sold them in the last minute with beautiful choreography. While I prefer that they not front load the programs, I understand the reasons for doing so. Even Kurt Browning went for the quad toe triple axel at the start of the program. In pairs skaters often do the sbs triple jumps at the beginning of the program (T&M are an exception- at least in their SP this year). IMO skaters should do what they feel comfortable with.

As an exception, Kulik actually did a triple toe and a triple salchow toward the end of his 98 Oly LP. However, the quad and the two triple axels were in the first half.

Vash

merrywidow · Dec 19, 2004

As an amateur, Viktor Petrenko was notorious for front loading his LP's. He still won tho & began the Russian (Soviet) run on World & Olympic titles.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 19, 2004

Vash01 said:
It could be a Russian strategy to front load a program. Shizuka's LP at 2004 worlds was magnificent but most of her jumps were in the first half.In fact I don't think she did a triple jump in the last one minute. I can understand doing the most difficult jumps in the beginning though. They take the most energy, so a skater would not want to risk doing them in the second half when he/she is tired. I have seen the Chinese skaters do quads in the second half of the LP, but they sometimes miss the easier triple jumps. Cheng Jiang Li is a good example. Arturn Dmitriev and both his pairs partners front loaded the programs, and sold them in the last minute with beautiful choreography. While I prefer that they not front load the programs, I understand the reasons for doing so. Even Kurt Browning went for the quad toe triple axel at the start of the program. In pairs skaters often do the sbs triple jumps at the beginning of the program (T&M are an exception- at least in their SP this year). IMO skaters should do what they feel comfortable with.As an exception, Kulik actually did a triple toe and a triple salchow toward the end of his 98 Oly LP. However, the quad and the two triple axels were in the first half.Vash

My comment about the Russians using frontloading as part of strategy is not meant to be a put down of the Russian skaters but a clever way to increase the positive in winning a competition. And frontloading is about difficult jumps and the ensuing combos from that group, but it relieves the skater to then show off his style in the latter part of their programs.

Before this subject came to light, many 'western' skaters also did their most difficult move first to get it out of the way so that they could really relax and enjoy the remainder of the skate. But the Russians went further and if you watch old tapes of Russian skaters you will see how they circle around the ice after each big quad and triple axel before choreography begins. IMO, this technique of frontloading is now used by many 'western' skaters. Nothing wrong with it for the judges: the marks go up if completed, but for me, it takes away from the program, and the judges don't care about that.

As for energy, that is part and parcel of the athlete. If skating in Colorado is too tough for skaters with sea level lungs, then they have to do something about that. Spins too, can use up a lot of energy, particularly if a skater goes all the way down (fanny just above the ice) and then struggle to come up on one foot. Doing a quad after a real sitzspin would impress me no end.

I could go on but in the last analysis we must think of competition, and a skater has to do what is best for him in the eyes of the judges.

Joe

Vash01 · Dec 19, 2004

I did not see it as a put down; rather as a smart strategy to win.

There are some amazing exceptional skaters like Midori who did not need to front load the programs.

Vash

Matt · Dec 19, 2004

I'm not sure if front loading is exactly a "bad thing" per se. Take Shizuka's FP at the 2004 Worlds; she got the 3lutz-3toe-2loop and the 3sal-3toe out of the way at the beginning of the programme and then used the final half to highlight her spirals, her much-improved layback, and that jaw-dropping ina bauer :love:

. I don't think front loading a programme makes it a bad programme.

That being said, I think the problem with a lot of skaters who I think we would consider as front loading their programmes don't use their freed-up second half of the programme to highlight the choreography (prolly b/c a lot of them don't have it), they use to simply rattle off the lesser triples that they haven't completed yet

BronzeisGolden · Dec 19, 2004

I wouldn't say Shizuka's program was all that front-loaded. Certainly, she did the two 3/3s in the beginning, but she saved a 3lz for later in the program. I'm also glad that Sasha got away from putting both of her 3lz jumps right in the beginning of the program. It just didn't work. Her programs are still quite front-loaded, but at least she is placing the second 3lz later in the program.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 20, 2004

Matt said:
I'm not sure if front loading is exactly a "bad thing" per se. Take Shizuka's FP at the 2004 Worlds; she got the 3lutz-3toe-2loop and the 3sal-3toe out of the way at the beginning of the programme and then used the final half to highlight her spirals, her much-improved layback, and that jaw-dropping ina bauer . I don't think front loading a programme makes it a bad programme.

That being said, I think the problem with a lot of skaters who I think we would consider as front loading their programmes don't use their freed-up second half of the programme to highlight the choreography (prolly b/c a lot of them don't have it), they use to simply rattle off the lesser triples that they haven't completed yet

I don't think front loading is a bad thing, either. I think, as long as the judges are satisfied with it, the difficult moves in the beginning of the program can be done before tiredness sets in. If a skater tires easily, then frontloading is a must. They don't seem to get the 'second wind' that all athletes rely on.

Unless the judging system insists on a well balanced program to include all grades of elements throughout the program, e.g., difficult elements up front, in the middle, and coming to the end, the skater can keep the difficulties up front.

I think the definition of a 'well balanced program' at present is just to ensure that all the elements are included, spins, jumps, footwork, fieldmoves, transitions, etc. It does not dictate as to when a skater does these elements or how well he has spaced them out. So frontloading, imo, is legal, but imo, not interesting choreography. A skater can have at the beginning of his routine: 2 quads, 3A, and two big combos. In the middle: two or three single triples depending on the rules and several spins, Towards the end: the footwork, fieldmoves. That seems to be the lineup of elements I am seeing for quite a while now, and judges seem to be ok with that lineup. I'm not. Interesting variations are not necessary.

Joe

floskate · Dec 20, 2004

I personally don't like front loading. It's like jump jump jump, then it's "okay lets get those PCS marks up!" It makes for a disjointed program in my eyes, but thats just my opinion. Even if they saved one jump for the end would make a bit of a difference.

I wasn't so impressed with Midori's Olympic program b.c after she missed the first triple axel, she practically sleepwalked though almost the whole program until she tried and hit that second triple axel. I bet she was thinking that if she didn't go for it, she wouldn't get a medal at all. What was cool was that she woke up and nailed a bunch of jumps after the triple axel.

Thinking on your feet and contemplating what you need to do to win a medal is sports and it shows just how great an athlete she was. It's not sleepwalking! She landed a beautiful 3f/2t combo and a huge 3l before the second axel. Btw she had never AFAIK done that second triple axel in competition before, trained it sure but never landed it. That was the single most gutsy thing in skating I have EVER seen and she was justly rewarded for it. (A close second would be Elvis throwing a 3lz/3t right at the death in 95!!) After that of course she lit up because she knew she had a medal in the bag. Her landing that jump is one of my favourite moments of hers as it seemed as though all the stress of the competition just vanished and she was the Midori of old again. :love:

SkateFan4Life · Dec 20, 2004

ChiSk8Fan said:
Midori never front loaded anything, even without the triple axel. Her programs used to have a triple toe-triple toe combination at the 3:00 mark, and a triple salcow out of footwork after that, and often ended with two falling leaf jumps in sequence right into double axel. Her middle section had her magnificent triple loop, and the beginning was a 3 lutz, a 3 flip and a 2axel into 3 salcow combination. Very well balanced sections with 3 jumping passes early, one middle and three at the end.

Kristi Yamaguchi never front loaded. She had her 3 lutz, 3 flip and 3 toe all in the first section, the middle section with the two edge triples of loop and salcow, and the ending with a 3 lutz and 3 toe again.

Michelle Kwan doesn't front-load her programs. The lutz, toe loop (or combination) and loop in the first section, the 3 flip and 3 salcow in the middle, and a 3 lutz and 2axel in the last section (sometimes 2 axel always after 3 flip) or another 3 toe loop at the end.

Chen Lu never front loaded. Once she even back/end loaded her program. Her Cappricio Espagnol program had a lutz and toe in the first section, the loop and salcow in the second, another lutz and two triple flips (one in combination) and 2 axel at the end.

Front loading as always been frowned upon by coaches, judges and skaters. Now, CoP rewards spacing out the hard jumps to guide the sport away from front loading. It might lead to end loading, actually, especially with 3 axels with the Men.

Imagine Plushenko doing his two quads (one with 4-3-3) early, and then doing the 3axel-half flip-3flip and a second 3 axel at the end of the program! Those would have the point value of quad combinations! His marks with outstanding GOE would be enormous and impossible to beat (but could be matched) technically.

Skaters will have to excel in stamina to maximize the CoP and this rule can change the sport as we know it. Programs will be more exciting if some of the really hard "game winning" elements are in the last sections of programs. How exciting it would be if a top ranked skater kept their hardest jump combination for the end of the program. Everyone would hold their breath and wait with anticipation.

If I was a competitor, I would try this out as a way to build excitement and points if I was weaker in presentation, etc. Li of China might consider this, but stamina is the key issue, and it would lift his skating a level in excitement. He does great jumps early and his programs fizzle out, for example.

Sasha Cohen front loads, which is dangerous because if a skater has problems with the jumps, the program deflates like a shot balloon because there is nothing later in the program to rebound into, especially in terms of the harder jumps. Many times her programs fall apart artistically because of the jump errors and subsequent deflating of emotion and time for disappointment to sink in and overwhelm the program and the audience and Sasha herself.

Front loading is not good for programs, it seems. A gutsy competitor will hopefully change things up a little by trying to push the envelope.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Great post!

Kristi, Midori, Lu, and Michelle delivered very, very well balanced competitive programs, with triple lutzes and/or triple/triple combos at the end, as well as high-level choreography.

Sasha, unfortunately, has made a habit of front loading her programs with her triple lutz/double toe, triple flip, triple loop, and triple toe. Sometimes she manages to get through these jumps without making a mistake, sometimes she doesn't. In the past few major competitions, she has skated cleanly thru the first half of the program and then fallen on her triple toe. One mistake seems to unravel Sasha, and she falls apart at that point and makes at least one or more other major errors. At Marshalls, she did not land a single triple after she fell on the triple toe.

Ladskater · Dec 20, 2004

On the whole Russian strategy - actually our skaters (North American) learned from the Russians to use their music to their advantage. Our skaters - Canada and US used to play themselves out so by the end of their program they "ran out of steam." Watching the Russians taught them to do their most difficult moves first then change the tempo half-way through the program and sort of "take a breather." Then they can pick up the tempo again at the end. It's probably the best strategy, and especially now with all the big jumps - quads etc. Skaters have to wisely place their jumps so not to incur injury.

dorispulaski · Dec 22, 2004

I agree that frontloading may be the right strategy for a particular skater, but I do like to see the big tricks more evenly spread through the program. That's why I'm glad to see that later jumps get the 1.1 multiplier.

I always respected Tim's attempting, and sometimes landing, a quad in the second half of the program, for example. Not to mention the hydroblade into the 3loop. (I hope he gets his problems resolved and comes back to do this again).

Sometimes it seems impossible for the more athletic skaters to win under COP, but this is one way they can do it: Rearload the program. That can cancel out some of the PCS differential in a way that the judges cannot tamper with.

"Front Loading"

Matt

soogar

ChiSk8Fan

Joesitz (RIP)

RIskatingfan

Eeyora

Vash01

merrywidow

Joesitz (RIP)

Vash01

Matt

BronzeisGolden

Joesitz (RIP)

floskate

SkateFan4Life

Guest

Ladskater

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