Oregonian Articles-who's right? Men or Pairs?

dorispulaski · Jan 7, 2005

Inoue and Baldwin interview, other links to other Nats stories at page bottom

They are working on a throw triple axel and planning to put it in by World's.

They are also choreographed by Peter Tchernyshev in order to add better transitions, and better step and spiral sequences, so they're trying to cover both bases, TES and PCS.

This is part of efforts by skaters not known for lyrical skating to lever their way in by adding new tricks. John is quoted as saying that you have no control over the PCS scores, but the TES scores seem to be under your control. This is not quite true. You only have control up to a GOE of 0. But his theory appears to
hold water for pairs. This is a year where more and more pairs have been bulking up their difficulty, some by adding big, big tricks.

O&L-tougher step and spiral sequences
I&B-triple lutzes, a harder second lift, harder steps, and now throw three axel.
Ding and Ren-quad toe throw
Obertas Slavnov-quad twist, harder lift entrance, and harder lifts.
Zagorska Siudek-all lifts now at highest level possible
Pet Tikh-harder spirals
T&M-harder lift entrance added
Shen Zhao-smaller skills, including death spiral upgraded
D&H harder death spiral

This is interesting, because in men's the competitors seem to be removing big tricks and concentrating on spins and steps.

Who's right? The men or the pairs?

hockeyfan228 · Jan 7, 2005

DORISPULASKI said:
Inoue and Baldwin interview, other links to other Nats stories at page bottom
Who's right? The men or the pairs?

Both are, because they're doing the same thing: comparing themselves to the competition, deciding where they might be able to get an edge, and attempting to get the maximum reward for the time invested. Also trying to be known for something special (quad twist, 3A throw, SBS 3Z's, etc.)

Ptichka · Jan 7, 2005

DORISPULASKI said:
O&L-tougher step and spiral sequences
I&B-triple lutzes, a harder second lift, harder steps, and now throw three axel.
Ding and Ren-quad toe throw
Obertas Slavnov-quad twist, harder lift entrance, and harder lifts.
Zagorska Siudek-all lifts now at highest level possible
Pet Tikh-harder spirals
T&M-harder lift entrance added
Shen Zhao-smaller skills, including death spiral upgraded
D&H harder death spiral

I think you have to take this apart.

Those adding harder death spirals are 100% correct. The Protopopovs did harder spirals than what is done today! For too long the quality of the spirals was pretty much ignored (remember Kazakova & Dmitriev in 1998). I am glad to see attention returning to those elements. A pefectly executed difficult death spiral may not appeal to the audience much more than a mediocre one, but the judges should know the difference.

Tougher steps are a win-win. Ever since Morozov did Yagudin's, skaters finally realized that footwork can have great audience appeal. I love that CoP can reward it. BTW, singles are really working on their footworks as well.

Lifts are a different story. I am concerned that safety is not taken into account (T&M being a prime example). I think this is largely audience driven. A lift is a typical "trick" that makes a team memorable.

Harder jumps - I have to see those. I remember in an interview Marinin mentiones that they could certainly do s-b-s triple lutzes, but only with a preparation that would basically ruin the choreography. So, I have to see exactly how I&B are doing this. If they still preserve the footwork going into the jumps, then more power to them. If, however, they have to telegraph it, than I'd rather they stuck with triple toes.

Linny · Jan 7, 2005

Men

I disagree that the men seem to be removing big tricks and concentrating on spins and steps. What seems to be happening to me is that the men who can do the big tricks will do them while the men that can't concentrate on improving their other skills to help make up some of the ground.

Useta be that big points were available for simply attempting a quad... now, they have to actually have a prayer of getting it.

Linny

dorispulaski · Jan 7, 2005

Ptichka, AFAIR, I&B take about half the rink for the setup. However, they both have a very nice lutz edge and seem to have about the same timing for the jump-both have landed the jump this year, but only once have they both landed the jump in the same program. John tends to underrotate and crank it out on the ice when he fails. Rena seems to fall when she fails-otherwise she lands a nifty one. I am not sure this is a good idea--however, the one time they did triple toes, which was as part of the LP sequence at GPF, they landed them OK. However, the timing is not nearly as great as for either the lutzes or for the 2A2T combination that they had been doing at SA and NHK. In all cases, the choreography leading into their jumps is still quite bare.

I don't agree that giving more points for harder entries to lifts is a bad thing. I think Petrova Tikhonov and Zagorska Siudek should get credit for doing lifts that others can't. All lifts are risky until the pairs know them.

I think if it were 6.0 still that Weir would have taken his quad off the practice ice and tried it in competition. I also think that Goebel would be going for that 3rd quad instead of working on spins and transitions.

Ladskater · Jan 8, 2005

Ptichka said:
I think you have to take this apart.

Those adding harder death spirals are 100% correct. The Protopopovs did harder spirals than what is done today! For too long the quality of the spirals was pretty much ignored (remember Kazakova & Dmitriev in 1998). I am glad to see attention returning to those elements. A pefectly executed difficult death spiral may not appeal to the audience much more than a mediocre one, but the judges should know the difference.

Tougher steps are a win-win. Ever since Morozov did Yagudin's, skaters finally realized that footwork can have great audience appeal. I love that CoP can reward it. BTW, singles are really working on their footworks as well.

Lifts are a different story. I am concerned that safety is not taken into account (T&M being a prime example). I think this is largely audience driven. A lift is a typical "trick" that makes a team memorable.

Harder jumps - I have to see those. I remember in an interview Marinin mentiones that they could certainly do s-b-s triple lutzes, but only with a preparation that would basically ruin the choreography. So, I have to see exactly how I&B are doing this. If they still preserve the footwork going into the jumps, then more power to them. If, however, they have to telegraph it, than I'd rather they stuck with triple toes.

Actually, Toller Cranston made history by making footwork a feature to the men's discipline and Kurt Browning made footwork an art.

Ladskater · Jan 8, 2005

This is an interesting debate, though, I am not sure exactly what the article stated as I could not access it.

There has been a definite shift in figure skating since the introduction of the new judging system. Actually, I think it started when figures were eliminated from competition.

I have to admit at first I was against the new COP system as it is called and hated to see the end of the 6.0 system, but I think the new judging system has made skaters pay more attention to detail. It's great to see. The emphasis with the demise of figures was constantly on jumping, the quad being the big focus of the men in particular. Now it's wonderful to see skaters paying attention to footwork and spins and spirals. Pairs have always had to pay attention to elements such as death spirals and pair spins. Now they must show greater skills in their lifts and throws.

I think it's more of a challenge now for skaters to really develop all aspects of their skating and it's making for some wonderful programs.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 8, 2005

Ladskater said:
Actually, Toller Cranston made history by making footwork a feature to the men's discipline and Kurt Browning made footwork an art.

Agree but Toller and Kurt's footwork were done in the style of lyricism which doesn't sell like macho bravuro. You remember Yagudin stopped before the footwork and looked at the audience and then began the sequences. It sold big. He's still doing it in show skting today. Unfortunatley, Joubert is not able to sell it.

Joe

RealtorGal · Jan 9, 2005

I'd be shocked to see them land a throw 3 axel. Frankly, I think the chances of landing it are slim to none, so I think it's a waste of time. It's also incredibly dangerous.

dorispulaski · Jan 9, 2005

It sounds risky to me too...but if it's something they want to try, they definitely should do it this year and not next.

From a points strategy, just perhaps it makes sense...the throw 3A is worth 8 points vs 4.5 points AFAIR for the throw triple Salchow. Even if they fall, if they get credit for the rotation, 8-3 GOE-1for the fall =4 points, nearly as much as they get for the salchow. If they don't get credit for the rotation, it isn't a good deal.

I have to admit, I was shocked that they ever landed the SBS 3lutzes, first ever.

Perhaps there is something addictive about getting your name in the record books that way...having one record, they need to have another one to be chasing?

I was not happy when Abitol and Bernadis had that terrible accident with the triple axel, and I would hate to see the same thing happen to Rena and John.

Oregonian Articles-who's right? Men or Pairs?

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