Skaters Facing Pay Cuts

I don't think that watching figure skating is quite so intimidating as all that, Berthes Ghost. Even a casual fan knows that there are different elements -- jumps, spins and spirals -- that make up a program. You get points for doing these things, and you get bonus points for doing them well. When you add up the points at the end, skater A got 125.34 points and skater B got 134.62 points. Oh phooey, I was rooting for skater A!

Mathman

Need stars....

Joe I totally agree. I think what creates "star power" for figure skating in the US is having multiple competitors in a given dicipline (especially ladies I think) who are strong contenders and rivals both internationally and at home. Advertising the heck out of the rivalries draws people in I think. This year the "rivalry" between Sasha and Michelle was highlighted up until nationals, but Michelle has SUCH star power and such a track record at Nationals that I'm not sure how believable the "rivalry" really was for Nationals.

Berthes Ghost you are absolutely correct that figure skating competition is much more complex than auto racing or marathons or simpler events where the goal is to get to the finish line first. The point I was trying to make about NASCAR was the tremendous job the NASCAR organization, the teams, and the drivers do catering to the fans of that sport. It is so common to see representatives (drivers, team owners, etc.) thank the fans for coming out to support them repeatedly in interviews. They readily acknowledge that without the fans they could not draw sponsors and the sport would not be possible at that level without the sponsors. So the fans play a critical role in the sport that is strongly highlighted.

I don't get the sense that the USFSA "campaigns" for the sport that way. Maybe they do and I just haven't noticed it. I also don't know if the same strategies would work for figure skating in any case.

Just thinking out loud..

DG

I don't think that watching figure skating is quite so intimidating as all that, Berthes Ghost.

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Well, my friends and I must be right thick planks then.

The casual fans that I know never progress beyond who they like. I have a friend who loved Nicole Bobeck and still doesn't understand why she was 'robbed' at 97 nats, not that he'd ever read a book or do any research into the sport or anything.

I've seen people get into big arguments over things like "Did Tara's parents force her into skating?" , and although they had very strong opinins on the subject, no one had any real information to back up their claims.

Years later, most people still never progress beyond unsubstaniated opinion. Linda was robbed, the judges are crooked, etc...

Personaly, I've spent years trolling the sports section of Barnes&Noble, hanging on every word Dick and Peggy say, watching and rewatching tapes, etc.. and I'm still learning. I could probably tell you just as much if not more about tennis than I could about FS, after having done 1/1000th of the research.

I'm not saying that people don't enjoy watching fs...... but understand it? Nah.

Understanding v. Enjoying the watch

From a financial and sponsorship point of view, it doesn't matter whether fans understand the subtle details or just enjoy watching on a general level. What matters is that there are lots of fans watching. That's what will keep skating on TV in particular for the enjoyment of all. I am far from understanding the details of figure skating at the level that you do Berthes Ghost (basing that on your many hours of research, etc. over the years). And I respect that you are a passionate fan and have taken the time to do your homework and really understand figure skating at an intimate level. But...I don't think that level of understanding is necessary for the average person to enjoy watching the competition.

I will go back to my NASCAR example. There are some fans who are really into the details. More than just who gets to the finish line first and picking a "favorite" driver. Some people are interested in all the dynamics and science behind the tires, the engines, how the cars are tuned, how that fine tuning needs to change based on weather conditions to optimize a performance in a race, etc. But my guess is that's a small percentage of fans.

What figure skating needs to keep it financial lucrative for the skaters, and to keep it on TV (and increase priority scheduling, etc) is more fans tuning in. Doesn't really matter how much those fans really know about what they're seeing. Only that they're watching.

DG

We have already felt the effects here in Canada; CTV abandoned coverage of all the skating competitions this season save Skate Canada and the Canadians! Thank goodness the CBC picked up the rest of the season.

I never thought this could happen here, but I guess I was wrong. As someone pointed out "money talks."

It always amazes me that we readily accept that televsion "equalizes" sports. How can we be comparing bottom lines between figure skating and football? How can we ALLOW the sponsers to do so? Yet they have; and they continue to build business empires through advertising slots on the backs of amateur, under-aged skaters and parents who double and triple mortgage homes to train a kid into Nationals. There is NO competition without the full roster of competitors. By nature, there are no future competitions if developing athletes do not arrive year after year to test themselves against the best we have. Professional football players are paid thousands-if-not-millions per year to trot their stuff in televised games. Even the worst guy on the team makes a living just by playing the sport. Not so in figure skating....where perhaps 10% of those who compete at Nationals actually earn anything at all just by skating, and in fact, everyone had to pay to get there, even after skating through qualifying events to earn the "honor". By rights, if we are comparing the earning power of figure skating as a televised sport against---say televised football games--then we should ONLY be comparing it to the earning power of amateur football. When was the last time your local highschool team brought millions of viewers to the TV set?

Hey, pipsqueak - It is a sad state of affairs. The networks need revenue to continue their business as well as make a profit. They make this money from sponsors who in turn want the viewers to buy their products. Did you watch the superbowl? Lots and lots of advertising. There were 130,000,000 viewers watching that
game. That keeps CBS in good standing financially.

It would be nice if CBS would use some of their profits to subsidize figure skating, but that's not good business.

Our big hope, is the Skating Channel if and when it comes into being. If there is a subscription for it then, the fans will have to shell out some money to keep it going.

Joe

I agree with Pipsqueak and Joe that we can't really compare figure skating to football in terms of its potential to generate money.

Doggygirl's suggestion of auto racing as a sport that we can learn from is quite interesting. (The typical good ol' boy who is into the sock car racing culture wouldn't be caught dead at a figure skating contest, however, LOL.) But the sports that are most frequently mentioned as models for figure skating to emulate are golf and tennis.

Golf suffers from the same basic problem that figure skating does. Is it really a sport? Are the people who do it really athletes? Yet golfers are playing for million dollar prizes every week at popular televised events.

What about tennis? What is tennis doing right that keeps television viewers interested and makes milionaires of the most successful players?

BTW, I noticed a news item the other day in which the commissioner of the U.S. women's soccer league was lamenting the fall-off (practiclly to zero) of interest in that sport, compared with its high just a few years ago when Mia Hamm and Brandy Chastain were household names for a hot minute. The commissioner's solution: have the players wear shorter shorts.

(Not a problem for figure skating.)

MM

hi MM

I think my list was poorly written and poorly explained so it leaves you or Joe assuming that I am stating my opinions rather than possible reasons for the demise of FS at this time.

I wondered for example that while Michelle fills a lot of the seats at nationals, these are diehard skating fans paying OBSCENE ticket prices. The millions at home may ?(or may not?) react with.."these national things are fixed. Michelle wins every year," click or maybe more fans watch still because she's in. One can only guess at that without funding a major poll.

That's one thing I hope I've explained better.

I do think Michelle is beautiful in her way, but Fleming had the specials, the talent, the Gold OLY Medal, the Bob Mackie glamour.
Dorothy was the girl next door who was so beautiful my generation of girls got her haircut en masse.

Non of the current skaters strike me as that georgeous. Top 3 in USA are very cute, but did you watch in the days of Peggy and Dorothy? The OLY Gold ensured the coverage and they were breathtaking beauties. We had Tara and Sarah, neither of which had glamorous specials, and while Tara grew to be much cuter as she grew up, Sarah looked her best at the OLY's, but frankly (eye of the beholder) I used to constantly read on the internet what people thought of their looks and I think I read a thousand, "Michelle is butt Ugly, and Tara looks like a troll, and Sarah was lanky, awkward, had terrible hair and awful skin, had put on weight, was not as pretty as Michelle and Sasha." and on and on and on.

DH and PF were drop dead georgeous. And they still are, I think.
The Gold Oly medal opened all the doors and they did the rest.

For the millions of casual watchers out there, they saw Tara and Sarah win and disappear off the screens.

Michelle being as popular as she is due to her longevity, is a famiar face to all the tv casual viewers. If you look at her career, she is a phenom in every way, as she became our underdog by losing in 98, then really getting all the sympathy for losing bigger in 2002. She is FS one true Icon who is still eligible! No American woman has had her long career without Oly Gold. She is a living legend after 10 years at the top.

But is she what Dorothy or Peggy represented to all the skating fans? Maybe what she represents is better. I still think beauty equals longevity and commands bigger dollars. Kat Witt still has a career and specials, and I think Roz Sumners was every bit as good and was very beautiful. Still it's yhe winners we all want to see, at least the media tells us this. Katarina was tall and georgeous and 'it' for the 80's. Two OLY golds but her beauty guaranteed more contracts as all the world knew who she was. She only does a double axel now yet the offers continue.

That is what I meant when I said we might attract more viewers if we had an OLY Gold genuine beauty like PF and DH who stayed around a while.

If Michelle wins gold in Torino all the people who felt sorry for her because she is so nice and sweet and grew up with us watching will be very very happy. I want whoever skates the best to win, and I really like fair judging. It is a corrupt sport,
esp since the decade of bloc judging.

I'm sure that there are many who find Sasha, Michelle, Jenny drop dead georgeos. Look at Nancy K. Two Oly medals and drop dead georgeous in Vera Wang. If she had the gold, a great many more doors would have opened for Nancy. Instead, they all opened for the orphan waif who we adopted called Oksana.
The skills went away, she changed a lot, her body changed and she was different. The contracts and offers dried up.

I cried when Michelle lost in SLC as she was crying. Her FOG perf. was incredibly moving. Yet Sarah was phenomenal. If Sarah were very beautiful, she would have been treated better. I have never seen an OLY gold medalist be marked so low at her 2003 Worlds. She did better than 6th place. I think that rough season helped her choose school. She dropped COI as they still wanted to give (or have to?) Michelle the last number. She is undoubtedly one of the most if not the most powerful woman in sports.

And you may find Jen or Vika or Michelle or ?
as a Goddess. Eye of the beholder, again.

But it is clear after all these years who gets the attention of the general public and it isn't just for their skating skills. Kwanophiles probably think Michelle is otherworldly beautiful.
she is certainly mainstream pretty and very marketable as is Sash and Jenny. My educated guess is millions of casual fans might return if the skating gets better and if a homegrown american beauty rose who everyone is intrigued by wins the Oly Gold and stays around for long enough that they all get to know her a little. But then, maybe all of our guesses at the demise have a bit of truth in it. Maybe it simply had it's day in the 90's and like Tennis, "we" are over it.

It will survive and the rich can buy tickets and fly to events and those who can afford the right channels can watch the offerings in smaller helpings.

And finally, I too Mathman don't understand why guys would rather watch football than these cute girls in tiny costumes?
We are all die hard fans talking to each other. Maybe we should casually poll family, friends, colleagues if they watch and why or why not? Still the remedy is clearly not in our hands. But isn't great we all have some tapes and at least memories to share? I hope it will be enough.

Hi Biojou - Great looks do not make the athlete. Crissy and Martina were far from beauties but they were great athletes and appreciated by the fans. Kornikova was good looking. Should she have been No.l? Sometimes in sport one gets a Gabriella Sabatini. wow.

MK, Sasha, and Jenny are the "best" the US have to offer at this time. They maintain the interest in Figure Skating in the US. And, imo, the interest in any sport is based on the talent and fans who are interested in that talent.

For those who are not interested in the talent but look to the personal beauty - one look, and they are gone. They get plenty of that from American movies and American Pop Singers. They don't need figure skaters.

Joe

Bijoux, gosh, just when I get all riled up in my Michelle-protector mode, you go and get all rational and reasonable on me! But seriously, thank you for not responding in kind when I went off on you a little bit in my previous post.

About beauty, this is going to sound so corny I can't believe I'm saying it, but all of the skaters that you mentioned -- Michelle, Tara, Sarah, Sasha, Jenny -- have the beauty that God blessed them with. As for the eye of the beholder, "those that have eyes, let them see."

Do you know the song, "Everything is beautiful at the ballet," from Chorus Line? That's how it is in figure skating. And in fact I think that is the primary appeal of the sport to its youngest participants. Little girls like to dress up in frilly costumes and have everybody tell them how pretty they look. This doesn't have much appeal to little boys, who think it's more fun to play games where they get to bash into each other, hence the dearth of male skaters in the U.S. at all levels.

For me, figure skating is my temporary escape into a better and more beautiful world. It provides both solace and inspiration. What more could we ask of any sport? What more could we ask of Michelle Kwan than that she continue to give, performance after performance, everything that is her heart to give. Some people (foolishly in my opinion) say that the sport would be better off if Michelle moved on, allowing other skaters a chance to become stars. To me, this is backward. We need more Michelle Kwans, not (one) fewer. What is holding the other ladies back is not Michelle Kwan, it is their own skating. If you want to be the champion, you have to beat the champion.

There she stands.

Mathman

Re: hi MM

Bijoux said:

And finally, I too Mathman don't understand why guys would rather watch football than these cute girls in tiny costumes?

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Ahem. It isn't the players but the cheerleaders & the "fans" don't watch as much since the cheerleader coverage have dwindled to almost none.

Well said Mathman!!

Couldn't agree more - FS needs MORE Michelle Kwans....not one less. It takes the great ones to raise the bar and bring us all more enjoyment in the future. And hats off to the challengers!! It takes courage to believe you can raise the bar, and then go for it.

Just a point on my Nascar analogy. That was NOT in any way meant to compare Figure Skating with Auto Racing. It is truly an example of a sport where FAN participation (at live events, and TV's tuned) is acknowledged, respected, and encouraged. Any sport that is suffering from dwindling audience participation should be trying to figure out what they are doing right to promote and acknowledge the importance of the fan participation - from a business point of view. (and I'm sure Nascar is not an exclusive example - just one that came to mind. I live a couple miles from Chicagoland Speedway where they run the Tropicana 400. I see that fan frenzy first hand every year. It's contagious.)

DG

joesitz

While I agree that looks should not matter is ladies skating or what they do that's scandalous, it matters very much what they say, how they look, how connected their coach is, etc.

In tennis, looks are nice but they are not judged by judges like in FS. Nothing is subjective except some of the line calls before the age of videotape review. If you win enough games, then the sets, you have won the match. That is why anyone from shapely Chris, (very popular in the USA and world) and mannish Martina could be greats regardless of looks or body type. Tennis is strictly a sport, not an artistic sport when you get judged on who you are, your record, how you look, how popular you are with fans, your face, costume, bodytype. No fat skaters either.

I love our world trio, they are among the prettiest skaters, and more importantly to me, they are the 3 best skaters in the world.
And that includes Fumie and Shizuka. But that is my taste.
World judges seem to like Fumie in the bronze. Winning or losing also depends on which way the political winds are blowing, whether Yuri Balkov is around an on and on.

In pro comps, the faves win a lot. If you even have a pro career it depends a lot on your reputation and if one of two people like you -Medals help of course, but if you are a diva or not a team player, Scott or Tommy won't put up with your crap for long if you are not a hard worker who gets along with others.

The biggest example is Tonya Harding....great skater, with big tricks but who was considered the opposite of the Ice Princess, her behavior did not conform. All the insiders thought she was trash, and she was up against the talented and very Princess like Kristy and Nancy. Her crew felt she needed to take Kerrigan out to get the top prizes. No other sport works like FS.

Hi MM

I think the USFSA and ISU need and want Michelle to win as much as possible. She is the money, honey, as you well know! I had no favorites for a long time, but after JK's SP, she is now my favorite in that I wish her to win as she is good for the sport and most importantly, a joy to watch. Sasha is wonderful but somehow lacking a big star quality presence. Jenny's got it.

Our trio is talented enough to sweep Worlds if nerves were not an issue.

Michelle IMO is the best competitor and the most consistent skater in the history of the sport. I never implied she should leave. But another discussion is needed to say she has been beaten by Tara, Sarah, Maria, and Irina. She did not raise the bar technically. A dozen skaters before and after that can lay claim. At Nationals, only Tara has bested her. I wish for us Sarah stayed in because she is a strong confident competitor. I feel she had a lot of great performances left. Alas, Yale has gained the dynamo woman-I wonder what world she will conquer next?

Bijoux - What you say about Figure Skating has a lot of merit. Certainly in a less subjective sport as Women's Skiing, there is leittle room for subjectivity.

In Womens Figure Skating, there is a lot of 'good looks' going for it as a subjective element. I agree with you. MK is is good looking as is Sasha Cohen as it Jenny Kirk as is Fumie Siguouri as is Shizuka Arakawa and as is Sarah Meier of Switzerland and Galina Maniachenko of the Ukraine.

How much of that plays a role in scoring, we are not absolutely sure but I would suspect, a little.

If Michelle Kwan has all that power as you seem to think, just what is that power? I don't see it except that I am a Kwan fan and love her skating. I see nothing wrong with that. I also liike Galina Manmiachenko. Do you think she will get all that power?

Joe

Will Galina become powerful?

I don't see how. She is nearing the end of her career, and has not won any thing big. Michelle is powerful as she has been in for years, has won a zillion medals, is very popular with US skate fans and seemingly other countries' fans as well. She is also very rich, has had great endorsement deals, and is held in esteem by her peers and the ISU and USFSA. She is their moneymaker for tickets and TV coverage. How could Galina compete with any of that? I like her skating, BTW, but we haven't had a ladies skater out of Europe that conquered since Katarina. Without the soviet sports machine I doubt we will. Only Japan seems able to rival our dominance in ladies singles.

Until recently, Irina was the big star of the East. She cannot rival Kwan's accomplishments, and she is not nearly as rich. $ is power. She is adorable and many fans grew to love her (but not as much as Michelle!) All the Russians and anyone else make their careers happen here as Pros. If skating really loses coverage/fan interest here, no one will have much work.

Joe, do you think the prize money and show $ was too much? Did these skaters help price themselves out of future careers?

Bijoux - Michelle has, as Evita would say, a little star quality. She is recognizable outside of figure skating fandom. She got this way by her appearances in two Olys (both of which she did not win gold). Many people at the Olys are not figure skating fans in the sense that we are but just casual viewers with casual interest. However, the crowds are in her corner. I can not explain that but it is fact. I doubt it is your definition of 'power' that makes the public root for her. She does have money, and she does increase revenues in show skating. But I think it goes beyond that, and yes, I think it is a bit eerie. Let's see if Dick and Peggy mention the crowd roaring in Dortmund? Some posters have said she is not that popular in Europe.

Imo, Sasha came on the scene as being feisty but not very consistent in her jumps. This has been changing for some time. Her personality has softened. She has now earned a large fan base and is the most likely one to replace MK in popularity when MK calls it quits. And MK has to call it quits first which puzzled Tara. Sasha's road to gold is quite realistic, but will she become America's Sweetheart?

Jenny is part of the US stockpile. She's the lucky one this year and she has a shot at the Oly podium if she can keep up with the rush to gold of so many skaters. Can she become America's Sweetheart?

I believe for a skater to become "America's Sweetheart" the skater must win over the casual fan as well as the avid fan. (A litlle PR hype wouldn't hurt.)

But who could become "Figure skater Queen of the World"?

As for "Shows", I think there is a whole business angle there which we are not privvy to. I'm sure Tom Collins makes a few mistakes but not significantly.

Cheers - Joe

I think all this talk about skaters' looks is beside the point (and kind of unpleasant).

It's my opinion that the decline of figure skating ratings and, therefore, the ISU's revenue from TV contracts, is related to several issues. None of them involve skaters' looks.

Here are the problems that I believe have led to declining figure skating ratings:

1. Skaters skating the same programs over and over. Even dedicated skating fans like us can become weary of a program after seeing it 10 or 12 times. Imagine how casual viewers feel. I think this is a turnoff to a lot of people.

2. Too many falls in eligible programs. Casual viewers don't understand that falls are a natural part of skating. They think that if skaters train properly, they shouldn't fall (or at least not very often). As programs have gotten tougher technically, the number of falls has increased. Again, this is a turnoff to the casual viewer.

3. Not enough artistry in eligible programs. So many eligible skaters these days lack good style, form, presentation, and choreography. Casual viewers sense this, even if they don't understand the finer points of jumps and spins. Skating on TV ultimately has to be entertaining to some degree, or people won't watch. Right now there are way too many boring, uninspired, fall-ridden programs. Again, this is a big turnoff.

4. Disappointing professional skating. After Lillehammer, pro skating had an opportunity to become a huge sport. Certainly it was getting the air time. But the pro skaters failed to capitalize. Instead of putting out their best skating, most of the pros took the easy way out, went after the quick money, didn't prepare or train enough, and performed watered-down, cheesy, half-baked programs that were far below the best they could do. No wonder the public stopped watching pro skating. And because casual viewers are still confused about the difference between pro and eligible skating, the bad skating in pro events has hurt the eligible world too.

5. Judging controversies. Judging controversies may garner a lot of press and publicity, but they're ultimately damaging to the sport. The danger is that if casual viewers disagree with the judges' placements in an event, and commentators fan the flame of their discontent as Sandra and Scott did in SLC, then the casual viewer is likely to get turned off of skating completely and dismiss it as "not a sport" and therefore, not worth watching.

I think these are the main problems that have led to the decline in figure skating ratings. I don't think looks have much, if anything, to do with it. Granted, it never hurts for a skater to be good-looking. But it's no guarantee of success either athletically or financially. There are any number of very attractive skaters who have not become champions, and any number of very attractive champions who have not become media stars, for whatever reason.

Good points but

I don't think you realize that by looks I mean total look, body, face, costumes, etc. My Tonya Harding example hit the nail on the head. Notice the princess like beauty in former times? Heine, Albright, Heiss, Fleming, Hamill, Kat, Kristy? Tara got gold but not Michelle's offers. Michelle was consider the person who should have won, and got all the contracts. Was her popularity higher only because she had a solid fan base? Michelle is considered by many Americans to be an exotic beauty, another Asian beauty like Kristy. Tara was still a baby then. now she is an actress, short, but very glamorous in comparisin to the 15 year old champshe was. Looks matter, clothes, hair, weight way to much in our Hollywood saturated media. That, ITA if you implied it.

I end there as the bloc voting became the most signicicant factor on who won for a decade. It was one thing I tried to sanswer MM on a previous post. I and others already listed all the factors you mention. I just wonder if a Solid Gold skater who happens to be star material in every way-Personality and commercial appeal that the public embraces will help revive figureskating here to 90's levels. It would be nice if that were an impetutus rather than whacking a top skater. Now THAT was very "unpleasant" for Nancy, for all of us who have had to watch over and over, and for a whole lot of people close to her and Tonya and that sad, desparate gang.

You should have been reading a few years ago to see one skater or the other or one poster or the other massacred for an opinion or choice they made. And all the things I said were rampmant on the many boards re controversial skaters like Tara, Michelle, Pasha G. Katia G when she got pregnant, and so on.

The reason 5000 children die a day from starvation is not lack of food. The root reason is apathy and indifference of people who have $$$ galore. But lets not talk about anything that could be considered unpleasant. My point to you Eyria is of all people you won't find a fan of not duscussing the truth, pleasant or not, here.
Gives me an idea for thread in another forum.

I am enviouos as you must live in a gilded world. "Everything is beautiful at the Ballet" is a very great song, MM. I used to sing it and much of Chorus Line before my throat got so froggy. I was usually Idol material only in the shower, though!