Skaters Facing Pay Cuts

[Jimmy Hoffa]

2. Michelle Kwan is nice and reliable and we all watched her grow up. The USFSA couldn't ask for a better competitor. But as a celebrity, let's face it-- the girl is BORING. Her interviews are all the same. ("I had fun... I did my best... I felt good out there.") And does she even have a life off the ice? Just once, I'd like to hear her say something that doesn't make her sound like some PR department's puppet. Just once, I'd like to see her behave in a way that's less than perfect, if not a wee bit naughty.

Oh, like leaving, excuse me, FIRING a longtime coach and choreographer during the Olympic season? And people alledging that she did it to be with her boyfriend? Yeah, nobody hated her guts for that one. Everyone thought it was sooooo cool and refreshing and feisty. Nobody thought that she was a backstabbing hateful bitch whose entire family deserved to be beaten up worse than Kerrigan in 1994.

 

[berthes ghost]

pipsqueak, reading your post I can't help but think that you've totally gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick.

1. For centuries civilizations have been dividing things into male and female: look at any romance language. For a humorous look at this, listen to Laurie Anderson's "Que es mas macho?" The idea that a school bus has to be either feminine or masculine is idiotic, yet there you have it.

This has nothing to do with gender. All men and women have both feminine and malculine qualities and life is a constant mix of the two in each individual.

Figure skating, IMHO, is most definately a 'feminine' sport. It doesn't matter if it's a woman or a man doing the skating. Line, posture, musical interpretation, pointed toes, presentation, subjective judging based on presentation,etc...

It's not just about the men, women skaters strugle with this balance on a daily basis, with the judges always awarding the more femine aspects over the more male ones.

2. Perception is key. It was clearly spelled out as "THOUGHT of as gay". Like that case in Germany recently where the boy wasn't beat up for BEING Jewish, but tortured into admitting that his clothes made him LOOK Jewish.

The gay guy sitting next to me at Euros didn't gasp in horror at the neon floral wrap-around blouse with ruffled trim at the wrists that one male skater wore because of homophoba.

No one was saying that all male skaters are gay. But figure skating, no matter what continent it's watched on, is a sport percieved of as "gay".

Yeah, Americans are perhaps too caught up in femininity in men, that's why the ladies event is the big seller in the US while Europeans watch the least athletic of all the skating sports: Ice Dance. It's not that they don't see Dance as "gay". They just don't mind "gay" sports.

BTW, European events aren't full of large group of straight guys on 'boys night out'. They are just as much overwhelmingly populated with female viewers as US events.

3. Greg Louganis, Carl Lewis, Rudy Galindo, Martina Navatolova, etc..: Gays and Lesbians are attracted to individual sports. It's hard to say why these pre-pubescent kids, who mostly don't even know that they are gay, graviate away from team sports toward individual ones, but it's a statistic not opinion.

I laugh at the idea that there are a lot of out gays in FS, but I doubt that there are just as many gays in Football and Hockey. People aren't randomly assigned to sports (Even in comunist countries), they chose them.

Yes, we are all free to be you and me (thanks Marlo ), but gay men like figure skating. They like to do it. They like to watch it. They choose figure skating. Why not capitolize on it rather than hiding behind this PC image of all humans being just as equal as model-Ts off an assembly line?

 

[Mathman]

Setting aside the gay question for the moment (are wrestling and bodybuilding gay sports, as is popularly perceived?), from my readings on this thread now I think that what figure skating needs is for Sasha Cohen

(a) to win the World Championship next month;
(b) to have an affair with Ben Affleck;
(c) to pose naked in playboy;
(d) to get a better hairdo; and
(e) to win the gold medal in 2006.

That will return the sport to the immense and lucrative popularity that it had in the 1960s and 70s.

Mathman

 

[Jimmy Hoffa]

3. Greg Louganis, Carl Lewis, Rudy Galindo, Martina Navatolova, etc..: Gays and Lesbians are attracted to individual sports. It's hard to say why these pre-pubescent kids, who mostly don't even know that they are gay, graviate away from team sports toward individual ones, but it's a statistic not opinion.

I laugh at the idea that there are a lot of out gays in FS, but I doubt that there are just as many gays in Football and Hockey. People aren't randomly assigned to sports (Even in comunist countries), they chose them.

This doesn't account for kids who don't realize that they're gay, but one possible reason for "out" athletes to gravitate to individual sports is that they don't have to worry about being beat up in the locker room by their teammates.

 

[Jennifer Lyon]

OK, this thread has gone off in two totally different directions. I will try to address both.

1. When I used the word "naughty" in my previous post, I was not referring to illegal, deviant, or unhealthy behavior. I also do not equate "naughty" with that B-word that rhymes with witch. By "naughty", I mean someone with a hint of an attitude, someone who thinks a certain male skater looks hot in those leather pants, someone who'd rather listen to Courtney Love than Celine Dion, someone who lives with her boyfriend and admits it, someone who doesn't like the ISU's latest rule and admits it, someone who'll tell her pushy parents to stuff it, someone who cares passionately about some social or political cause and isn't afraid to let the whole skating world know it, someone who will make an occasional sarcastic comment with a wink and a nod. I'm not saying Michelle should necessarily do any or all of these things. But she'd seem more "real" to me if she did.
About Michelle firing her coach... Yeah, she did take some heat for that. But a lot of skating fans blamed it on her dad. They saw it as his decision-- or at least a decision he heavily influenced-- not a decision Michelle made herself. And firing your coach doesn't qualify as "naughty." In some cases, it's a wise decision. In other instances, the skater is making a big mistake. Personally, the period where Michelle's dad was her coach reminded me too much of Surya Bonaly and her mother. (Incidentally, Surya doing a backflip at the 1998 Olympics is above and beyond "naughty" and I enjoyed every second of it.)
About Michelle's image compared to Dorothy's... Dorothy was an amateur skater. Back then, you didn't see skaters on TV several times a year. The mainstream media completely ignored them until a few weeks before the Olympics. Agents and PR people and public images came into play *after* a skater won her Olympic gold medal. Dorothy had no idea there was so much pre-Olympic hype surrounding her until someone delivered a stack of telegrams wishing her good luck and she realized these were all from strangers. If you watch footage of her during her amateur careers, her body language indicates that she's a somewhat self-conscious young woman. She squints at the marks on the scoreboard because she's not wearing her glasses. On the Olympic podium, she examines her gold medal because she wants to know what it looks like. Maybe by that time, she had realized that she'd become famous but it hadn't sunk in yet. Michelle, OTOH, hasn't been an amateur skater since Nancy got whacked on the knee. She had an agent before she ever won a senior-level event. Both she and Tara were media-trained at a young age and it shows. They said what the adults told them to say-- no more, no less. They knew the cameras were there. They knew they were famous. I think they also knew that the whack had tainted the sport's image and that it was important for them to look and act like good little girls. They were the Olsen twins of skating, two perfectly-groomed child stars. Thanks to Christine Brennan, we heard some not-so-nice stories about Tara and her family. But Brennan worshipped the Kwans and pushed the "perfect little girl" image even farther. Dorothy Hamill didn't have to deal with any of this at such a young age. I also don't see the current up-and-coming young skaters having to deal with it. Sarah Hughes didn't have a PR machine at 14. The kids who are making their way up the ladder now are not polished media stars. The pendulum has swung back the other way.

2. About gays in skating... I think the powers-that-be could learn a lesson from the WNBA. While few of the players are officially out, the league knows it has a huge lesbian fan base and they're willing to cater to these fans, at least to a certain extent. While it's true that the TV network ALWAYS makes sure you know which players are married or have boyfriends, I've also heard about players signing autographs at Gay Pride events. Imagine if a couple of skaters went and did the same. They don't necessarily have to be out gay skaters. They don't necessarily have to be men. They just have to sit at a table, sign some autographs, and maybe give away some free tickets to COI. They could advertise in gay newspapers and magazines. They could offer special ticket packages to gay and lesbian groups. These are just a few ideas. This sort of thing sends a message to gay fans-- we know you're here, we welcome you to come to our show.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for the thoughtful post, JL. About Michelle, I guess it's different strokes for different folks. I like it that she presents a wholesome public image and saves her "naughtiness" for behind closed doors. She does not owe us a JLo act, nor an exposition of her political views, nor a public fight with her parents.

About marketing the sport to the gay audience, I don't know quite what I think about that. Two years ago I went to the Adult National Figure Skating Championship in Ann Arbor. I went at the on-line invitation of an adult skater who was participating and who was an active contributor to Golden Skate at the time.

There was plenty of opportunity to hang out socially between events. As far as I could tell, in these common areas and the cafeteria, every man except me was openly gay and flaunting it. It was quite a cultural experience for me. I came away feeling like, so this is how gay men act when there are no straights around.

So I guess I'm wondering if maybe the sport is already doing as much as it can to attract the interest (and the money) of the gay market.

Mathman

PS. If all gay skaters came out, that would spoil the game of guessing who is gay and who is straight that dominates the discussions on some figure skating boards.

 

[berthes ghost]

Nah.

Skating may be filled with Welder's daughters and Fisherman's sons, but they love to pretend that they are some victorian elite club with wood paneled club rooms and a dignified air where such things are just not discussed. Fans love to support this patrician ideal as well. Simply asking if La Kwan is dating anyone will get a thread locked over at MKF faster than you can say 'tabloid headline'.

We all know that JLo is straight, but that doesn't stop people from discussing every minor detail of her life.

We now all know that Brian Orser is gay, but what do we really know? Who he dated? How he came out? Not such public knowledge and certaily not regualrly discussed on FS boards. Perhaps you heard some good gossip at Adult Nats?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

This thread has so many topics!

Michelle is a very private person and sometimes mysterious. This is not unlike certain celebrities in the entertainment business. Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward are a very private married couple. Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell are another very private couple and they are not married.

Johnny Weir, as far as I know is a very private young man. So far he has not been driving under the influence. In fact we don't know if he drinks.

All of this is basically: "SO WHAT". Let La Kwan and Johnny skate, and let's hope there is a picture for Joanne Woodward.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Joe, I like your Woodward-Newman analogy. To me, when celebrities try to attract attention to themselves by carrying on in public, this does not make them more interesting, but rather less so. It makes them just like everyone else.

MM

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yeah Mathman, but, unfortunately, gossip rules and makes a celebrity more than not. I like Kwan's mysterious ways.

Joe

 

[RealtorGal]

Yeah Mathman, but, unfortunately, gossip rules and makes a celebrity more than not. I like Kwan's mysterious ways.

Joe

I like the fact that Michelle insists on keeping her private llife PRIVATE. I'm also glad that she seems to be leading a family-based, moral life. Celebrities do have the right to privacy, but as role models, they have a certain responsibility to their fans, particularly their young ones.

 

[Kwanisqueen81]

I agree with Joe, Mathman and RealtorGal!!

One of the major reasons many Kwan fans like her is because she presents a wholesome image. Not just that but we feel that it's not just PR "image" That is to say She really is a private, family-oriented, girl-next-door. Ok Skater-next-door. There were pictures of her going to a basket ball game with her sister, and brother. She is a private person. I like that. I don't care about Michelle's love life, polical views, ect. I just like her skating. I guess that is her appeal. She is a throw back to a much simplier era. I support her right to privacy.

 

[Rgirl]

JenniferLyon, [Note: Major changes made to content from initial version.]
I loved your second post! Very well thought out, rational, and well articulated ideas. It would be great if the majority of other posters would agree or disagree with what you actually said, but as I'm sure I don't need to tell you, a lot of people are still going to read statements such as "I'm not saying Michelle should necessarily do any or all of these things. But she'd seem more 'real' to me if she did" as if you were saying, "You want Michelle to be something she's not."

I also thought you clarified a lot of your opinions from your first post. But I think that often when one tries to write about ideas that are multifaceted, beyond stereostypes, and not based simply on fan worship it takes more than one post to do so. At least for myself, when I see something in print, especially something dealing with complicated issues, I always see things that seem too generalized, repetitive, or just not saying what I meant. Forums like this are great for ideas that can be expressed in a couple of short sentences or at most a paragraph. But if what you are trying to get across is more complex or has arguments that go beyond pigeonholing or ad hominem, it's tough. I think most posters either don't have the desire or time to read a post where you take the time to flesh out and substantiate ideas that may be considered "subtle"--at least in the context of an online message forum--and thus often respond emotionally. It's understandable, but still frustrating--especially if your opinions are not the same as the majority. But as long as things are expressed within the guidelines, I think it's best to be yourself. Even if I disagree with some or all of what someone says, even if they make me angry--as long as it's not an attack, which neither of your posts were, toward anyone--IMO the whole point of a general forum is to be tolerant of others' ideas and to consider others' points of view.

In other words, people don't read these forums as if they were reading a magazine, which I'm sure you know.

Having said that and speaking of being oneself, I'm going to be myself and write a long response that may be misinterpreted and certainly will be read by very few Anyway, it seemed very clear to me that you were NOT saying that Michelle Kwan should do anything other than what she's doing. I thought you made it clear that just for your own interest in figure skating, it would be nice to see some top US skater, perhaps not any current skater, but someone in the near future who is naturally less conservative, naturally more open about speaking out about controversial issues, naturally more inclined to say whatever is on her mind whether it makes for good PR or not, naturally more "fiesty" for lack of a better word. Such a skater won't be everyone's cup of tea, but neither are some of the current or recent "ideal" skaters. In other words, you say tomato, I say tomahto

I didn't get the idea that you wanted Michelle or any current skater to change. In your first post you said you find MK boring, but that's your prerogative. Others find her endlessly fascinating and that's their prerogative. That's how I interpreted what you said.

However, you also said in your first post--and I realize you clarified and reconsidered some of your opinions in your second post, which is fine, in fact we could probably all use more reconsideration of our opinions; even if we don't change them, I think the process is valuable--that you felt the eligible skating world needed a Madonna or Cher. To many people, both skating fans and the average viewer, Michelle is their figure skating "Madonna" in that they find her endlessly fascinating. But I think for the vast majority of US viewers of televised skating, where the really big money is, their feelings about Michelle, be they positive, neutral, or negative, do not affect whether or not they watch figure skating. IMO the same would be true if over the last 10 years the US ladies' skater with Michelle's record were the skating equivalent of Madonna or Cher.

My rationale for saying this is based on the enormous popularity of talk radio from the late '80s to the mid '90s. In terms of ratings--and for the sake of simplifying the argument--the two biggest jocks were Howard Stern and Rush Limbaugh. Liberals had Stern; conservatives had Limbaugh. For a number of years, each was a superstar, but neither one was enough to sustain the popularity of what I'll call "extreme" talk radio. Even Madonna and Cher's careers go in cycles. Therefore, I think that even if the US had a ladies skater who since '96 had won everything Michelle has, heck, even if she had an OGM, I don't think the trends in skating overall would be any different. Same numbers of viewers, just different viewers.

Also, I think the decline in figure skating viewership is a relative one. I think a lot of people, especially those who came of age in the early or mid '90s, feel that that level of interest in figure skating was normal. It wasn't. Those were "boom" years that came about due to a combination of factors, ie, two instead of four years between Winter Olympics in '92 and '94; Kristi Yamaguchi becoming the first US OGM in ladies FS since Dorothy Hamill in '76; the Harding/Kerrigan scandal; Perestroika and its affect on skaters such as Gordeeva & Grinkov, Katerina Witt, and especially Oksana Baiul because of the whole orphan story, which the media got hold of and speed skated; an unusually rich time in pro skating with skaters such as Kristi Yamaguchi, Paul Wylie, and Kurt Browning entering the pros, not to mention Oksana Baiul, who at the '94 Olympics audiences met, were generally mesmerized by, and then saw her immediately turn pro; and the whole mega fitness movement of the '90s. Plus I'm sure there are others.

Sometimes one person can drive an entire "boom" the way Mikhail Baryshnikov did with dance from the mid '70s to the early '80s. But he was not only a dance star, but was also in several very popular movies. Baryshnikov was Hollywood A-list not as an actor, but as a celebrity. Plus his talent as a dancer (not to mention his libido--and it was the '70s) was enormous enough to keep people interested for almost 10 years. But the peak was was really only five years, at the most.

There was also a "mini boom" after the '84 Olympics due to Torvil & Dean, but it only lasted a few years. In that case, I think you had a lot of dance aficianados going to see T&D on tour because they had the money to go to a lot more cities than dance companies, which were in a slump then because of the Reagan cutbacks to arts funding.

Not that I don't think skaters' personalities aren't factors in the popularity of the sport, it's just that I think true celbrities in figure skating come along only once every 50 years at most. Sonja Henie both won everything and was a movie star, but times were much simpler then. You could carry a musical comedy film with reputation, beauty, and spins on the ice. Not so today.

Getting back to your most recent post (and trying to move this mutha along, lol), although I agree that certain sports writers, especially Christine Brennan loved Michelle and as you said "pushed the 'good little girl' image even farther," I think Brennan, of whom I am NO fan, saw the market favored a "good little girl" star and that by '97, there was a void in that area, since that was when Oksana was showing major signs of trouble. For one thing, Oksana was no longer a little girl (she grew five inches and gained 25 pounds, which is the expected weight gain for that increase in height, during the first nine months after the Olympics--not unusual, BTW, for girls at that age, and especially not unusual for female athletes at that age who go from extremely intense training and dieting, which Oksana herself has reported, to less intense training and a more appropriate caloric intake); for another she was experimenting with independence by going out to Manhattan clubs for drag queen, which I had a blast at myself in my late teens and early 20s, but Mr. and Mrs. Conservative Middle Class America don't want their doe-eyed orphan story to go that way; and of course, sadly, there was the drinking, the DUI, the increasingly bad skating, erratic behavior, etc. The poor girl needed and eventually got help, but a lot of fans who had loved her in Lillehammer really hated her by the end of '97.

So I think Christine Brennan shrewdly saw not only Michelle's potential as a champion, but also saw her as the ideal skater to be the yin to the whole Harding/Kerrigan scandal-Oksana breakdown yang.

I think that history shows that eventually, a skater like the one you described will emerge as a great champion. Though all issues of personality aside, I have no doubt that Michelle's competitive record will stand for decades. Just quickly, for one thing, she's the most consistent triple jumper ladies skating has ever seen; she's got the presentation skills; and her career as a champion began when few ladies did 3/3s and those who could were inconsistent; and her as her career has continued, those skaters who were both consistent and could do 3/3s kept suffering career-ending injuries (IMO, this is due to FS boots that are not designed for skaters to do 3/3s safely over time, but that's another topic). I'm not taking anything away from Michelle's achievements--nobody else comes close to her competitive dominance for this long--but her competitive career is occurring during a time in the sport where the technical zenith for ladies was being able to consistently do a seven-triple LP with one or two 3/2 combos.

I believe that eventually, and perhaps before the 2010 Olympics, the already designed figure skating hinged boots will be accepted, enabling more skaters to do 3/3s without injury; training techniques for doing seven-triple programs including one or two 3/3s will be refined; and someone will come along with the technical brilliance to do all that. For those who really love Michelle, no one will ever take her place. For other fans and those still very young or not yet born, Michelle will be like Peggy Fleming or Dorothy Hamill is to many younger skaters of today. And that technically brilliant skater just might also have great dance ability and artistic presentation, though might not be balletic or lyrical. And that technically brilliant with great dance ability and artistic presentation just might have a personality and charisma that is more like Madonna. I just hope she doesn't pay homage to Madonna by wearing a super torpedo bra costume

After all, it was from '84 through '88 that Katerina Witt was at her competitive peak, and TIME magazine called her "Madonna on ice." Had KW not been reigned in by the East German regime, wee doggies, there's no telling how interesting she might have been. She certainly hasn't wasted her freedom.

Historically and cyclically, it makes sense to me that the dominant ladies skater of the glam '80s was Witt and that her counterpart from the mid '90s to ??? is Kwan. So JLy (geez, I hope people don't call you that, unless you want them to), mark my words, figure skating will have the equivalent of a Cher or Madonna soon. And after winning the 2222 OGM, when she skates her Olympic exhibition program to "Hole," I'll by jumping up and down (if I can).
Rgirl

PS Nobody will read this either

 

[berthes ghost]

Vivie Ann Hulten, Dick Button, Carol Heiss, Toller Cranston, John Curry, Debi Thomas, Tonya Harding, Surya, Nancy, Rudy, Weiss... the sport is literally pepered with people who 'tell it like they see it', yet all feel 'opressed by the man'. I guess it's just a microcsom of life.

 

[Jennifer Lyon]

RGirl,
Yes, I remember those incidents with Lloyd (loved that one) and Midori. At the time Midori made her apology, I had recently read a book about the Japanese educational system. According to this book, apologies are a part of Japanese culture. If a kid gets lost on a field trip, everyone would apologize to everyone-- the kid would apologize for wandering off, the kid's parents would apologize for their child's behavior, the teacher would apologize for losing the kid, and the manager of the field trip site would apologize for not finding the kid sooner. So I viewed Midori's apology (and her reasons for making it) in light of this context.

Back to Ms. Kwan (and in a sense, back to the original topic of this thread)... The reason why I pointed out her "boringness" in the first place was because we were discussing why the popularity of this sport has declined. I'm not blaming Michelle, mind you. She is who she is. But when a sport doesn't have a big media star, the general public loses interest. Tennis needed Andre Agassi because Pete Sampras was... well, a lot like Michelle. If Shannon Miller had been as perky as Mary Lou Retton, it wouldn't have mattered that she "only" won silver in 1992. When the Detroit Pistons won the NBA Finals back in 1989 and 1990, the flamboyant Dennis Rodman received more media attention than the quiet and steady Joe Dumars. There's a difference between being a champion and being a celebrity.

 

[Rgirl]

Hey Jennifer,
Isn't this always the way? Just as I do a major edit job on my post (for personal reasons), you reply to some of the things I edited out. That's okay, I'll put them back in this post I saved the cuts so it just takes a click.

Interesting points about Mary Lou Retton vs. Shannon Miller and Andre Agassi vs. Pete Sampras. Shannon, however, was so in the shadow of Kim Zmeskel in '92, who had an undiagnosed stress fracture of the tibia during the Olympics and the poor girl of course kept falling because of that fracture, with all the commentators saying in front of a couple of billion people, "Kim just couldn't handle the pressure." When her stress fracture was diagnosed about just after the Olympics (you can tell by the amount of calcification how about how long it's been there), her injury got so little press coverage that when I heard it announced on a TBS gymnastics event, I sent a letter to the NEW YORK TIMES that was basically what I said above. The TIMES called me and said, "What? Where did you hear this? We don't know anything about it!" BTW, it was verified and the letter printed, but big whoop.

Sorry for the digression; Zmeskal's stoicism in the face of the bad rap she got is one of my pet causes.

Anyway, because Shannon was not a favorite at all going into '92, her all-around silver was seen, as I recall, as the saving grace for the US team. And because Shannon lost the all-around gold to Russia's Tatiana Tsutsu by the slimmest margin ever, Shannon was the new "star" every Olympics PR person hopes for--sort of.

I say "sort of" because Shannon wasn't a star in the sense of also being a celebrity, the way Mary Lou was, which goes to your point about the difference between a champion and a celebrity. ITA with you that the difference between the two is big, I'd even say huge.

I just don't know if Michelle were a celebrity FS champion whether the decline we're seeing now, that is, relative to the "boom" we had from '94 until about '98, would be any different. I don't know if a celebrity champion is enough to sustain an entire sport after a number of years of broadcast figure skating glut. I just really don't know. Things are so naturally cyclical, it's difficult to assess the impact of one person on a sport until it happens and you count up the money and as people say, butts in seats. And I can't think of any way to test this theory.

I guess the closest thing I can think of is Oksana Baiul as a champion star, at least for about a year. Had she not had all the problems, had not turned pro, who knows? Anyway, it's a very interesting topic, ie, celebrity vs. champion vs. celebrity champion, and one that I will have to ponder before I might have anything to add. But way to hang in there and make the point. I dig that!


Okay, so people won't think you're crazy referring to things I cut out of my previous post, here's the delted second half. I know each and every poster on this forum missed it desperatly

Cut from Rgirl's 2-19-04 post:
All this discussion reminds me of a few skaters from the early to mid '90s and some notable moments from the '88 and '92 Olympics. At the '92 Olympics, Midori fell during her short program and thus went into the free skate somewhat down in the standings. After her fall in the short, Midori apologized to all of Japan for performing poorly and not representing her country with her best skating--or at least that was the general translation. I felt Midori could not have been more sincere and was truly speaking from the bottom of her heart. I'd always liked Midori's personality as we saw via the media, but her apology seemed so real and deeply felt that my heart really went out to Midori, I found her more endearing than ever, plus I felt I had seen a new dimension to her personality that had nothing to do with saying or doing the "right" thing--it was just right for Midori given her true self. I also recall Nancy Kerrigan saying something like, "Apologizing to your whole country--man, I can't imagine feeling that way." (Not exact quote, just what I remember.) Because that comment seemed both genuinely "Nancy"--and quintessentially American for her age and the times--but also a different side of her than I'd seen before (prior to that she'd seemed rather whiney and peevish) it made me like Nancy more than I had previously. Before I get nailed for contradicting myself--"So what do you want? Skaters to be themselves but only as long as you like who they are?!"--let me say that while I prefer skaters to be themselves, it doesn't mean I'm going to like that "self." It's just as it is with people you know personally.

The point is, back in '92 it seems to me that the skater PR machine was not as oppressive as it is now. Skaters seemed to be more able to show more sides of themselves, "warts and all" so to speak. I recall in the late '80s how mercurial Debi Thomas's personality would be. Once she gave an interview where she said, "I can be just AWFUL!" and indeed, commentators at the '88 Olympics reported on how Debi had "stormed out of a training session, with Dick Button saying (I'm paraphrasing), "These are the Olympics and this just shows that these athletes are under Olympic sized pressure!" going on to say some other things about the emotional roller coaster of practice right before the biggest event of your life. They also reported on Katarina Witt's psychological intimidation, such as staring down other skaters or skating to her main competitor's music during that skater's practice session. Talk about b***sy! I'm not saying skaters should be that way, but it sure was interesting. Anyway I remember Dick Button chuckling and saying things like, "This is all part of the theater of sport and I for one absolutely love it!" I'm with Dick. (Hmm--interesting sentence)

At the '94 Olympics, the pairs competition was especially dramatic and intense, with G&G returning; Mishketunok & Dmitriev looking terrible in practice, even taking a bad fall on a lift right before the SP; and Brasseur & Eisler skating their hearts out trying to crack the Russian grip on pairs and hoping to at least win the silver. After Brasseur & Eisler skated a virtually mistake-free program, with the crowd cheering them but booing the judges' marks, Lloyd just sat back and said re the marks, "I don't give a rat's ass." The coaches laughed, Isabelle laughed, everybody I was watching the Olympics with laughed, with people, including me, saying, "That's so great! 'I don't give a rat's ass' on live TV of the Olympics! Way to go Lloyd! I love this guy!" But again, it was just so Lloyd of Lloyd to say that.

It was also so Lloyd of him when at some competition, I forget which, Lloyd caught an edge during a very dangerous lift with Isabelle and fell in such a way that Isabelle had no way to see how she was falling or break her fall or protect herself. As he was going down, you could see Lloyd's focus immediately go to Isabelle and as much as he was able, he tried to make sure he was in a position where she wouldn't fall on his blades and did everything humanly possible--and beyond--to try to break her fall. Fortunately, neither was injured, other than the usual bruises from such a fall, but it could have been disasterous to the point of being fatal. IIRC, after a time out or after another team skated, they skated their program. But what I remember most is after the competition: the camera showed Lloyd and Isabelle in a dim corner backstage, with Lloyd leaning up against the wall and the two of them just holding each other.

So is there a point to all this, lol? Well, the point I'm trying to make is that at least for me, I love the "theater of sport" as Dick Button called it. Sometimes what moves me can be a shy young woman who is one of the greatest skaters in the world apologizing to her country for something there was no need to apologize for, but because SHE truly and deeply felt the need to do so, it was a heartwrenchiing moment. Sometimes I'm moved by a peevish skater showing the first signs of appreciation for another culture. Sometimes I'm moved by the relationship between a pairs or dance team. Sometimes it's the tears, sometimes it's the holding back of tears. Sometimes a skater moves me, sometimes that same skater doesn't.

I believe only one thing, which is that we are continually being reborn--sometimes for the better, sometimes not, but that often depends on your circumstances. In the eyes of some people, no matter what you do, no matter who your really are, they will always see you as one thing and one thing only and that thing is something they will either hate or love as long as they live. Others enjoy the ups and downs of real relationships. They have no interest in pretending a skater or some celebrity is "everything that's good about the world." They would rather engage in the surprise and mysteries of real life.

In short, I never know when a skater is going to make me cry; make my heart sing, amaze me with their technical prowess; gag me with their interpretation of a program; surprise me by doing that same program differently to the point where I love it; when I a skater, year in and year out, is beloved by what seems like everyone else but just does nothing for me; when that same skater surprises me with a new program but, sigh, drops it and goes back to the old stuff; when that same skater makes a startling and unexpected breakthrough and in one event changes from a skater I don't care for to a skater who is surprising me with every move; when a skater changes from what seems contrived to what seems real--and on and on.

But that's just me. I love surprises and I hope skaters keep surprising me. From today's skaters, I'd like to see less expectation of a certain standard of behavior and personality, especially in ladies. Why can't we call them women? Rudi Galindo was SUCH a breath of fresh air. I loved Sasha Cohen's frankness in '02, which has now been PR'd out of her. Maybe she was arrogant, maybe not, so what? She spoke her mind and I liked that. Certainly skaters mature, but for a skater to be "punished" by the powers that be because she doesn't convey a "lovely and demure" persona--come on, now. It was Sasha's former coach, John Nicks, who didn't want to play the "pretty little girls in pink dresses" game with the media and thus promoted Sasha as the "anti pretty in pink"--and he's an old British guy. But you know those Brits; very ironic. I loved Yoshie Onda's athleticism and was sad to see them try to turn her into a lyrical skater. In short, I'd love for today's women skaters to be a big spice rack of personalities rather than for all these young women feeling they have to all try to be salt.
Rgirl

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Back to Ms. Kwan (and in a sense, back to the original topic of this thread)... The reason why I pointed out her "boringness" in the first place was because we were discussing why the popularity of this sport has declined. I'm not blaming Michelle, mind you. She is who she is. But when a sport doesn't have a big media star, the general public loses interest. Tennis needed Andre Agassi because Pete Sampras was... well, a lot like Michelle. If Shannon Miller had been as perky as Mary Lou Retton, it wouldn't have mattered that she "only" won silver in 1992. When the Detroit Pistons won the NBA Finals back in 1989 and 1990, the flamboyant Dennis Rodman received more media attention than the quiet and steady Joe Dumars. There's a difference between being a champion and being a celebrity.

Interesting point, Jennifer and I think you have a good point. - You seem to equate popularity with almost any kind of behaviour to get a name into the media. Aghassi's romance with Shields; Retton's perkiness; Rodman's antics. I could add Tonya's whack. They do in deed get the media going and increase the popularity of their various sports. Maybe the PRs of certain figure skaters are not earning their pay.

While I agree, the PR system and how well the media picks up on it play a very big role in the popularity of the sport, I personally am not giving up my joys of watching Tennis, figure Skating and the Mets

Joe

 

[clairecloutier]

This is an interesting discussion about Michelle's alleged "boringness". I have mixed feelings on this topic.

On the one hand, I admire Michelle tremendously for the way she's conducted her career and her relations with the media. She handles her interviews perfectly--is always pleasant, polite, and positive. You always hear about the importance of good sportsmanship and grace under pressure, and Michelle exemplifies these qualities more than any athlete I know. Even at her lowest moments, she has never been less than gracious and polite. That takes real courage and character, IMO. When you've suffered a major life disappointment like losing the Olympics, it's easy to take the low road, as Nancy Kerrigan did, and make catty, mean comments about your competitors. It's so much harder to take the high road, and I admire Michelle tremendously for doing that after Nagano and Salt Lake. And although it's true that Michelle's comments to the press are pretty bland and innocuous, that's not always a bad idea, particularly when talking about other people. I tend to go by the old rule: "If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say it at all."

I also agree with Mathman and others that Michelle's positive attitude and good-girl image are an intrinsic part of her appeal. Michelle's fans love her as much for her gracious personality as for her victories. I don't think any of her fans would want to see that change, especially if it were simply for the sake of becoming a bigger celebrity. Do we really need or want divas in figure skating? I guess this is the question.

All this said, though, I have to admit that I do sometimes wish Michelle were a little more candid in her remarks. As a fan, I would love to know more about things such as why she broke up with Frank, why she stopped using Lori Nichol, why she's never mastered a triple/triple, why she doesn't appear in the fall internationals, what coaches she considered other than Rafael, and, yes, who she's dating right now. I can understand why Michelle wants to keep this stuff to herself. But I'd love to know more about what she's thinking, and I believe that she could let a little more of that out without losing all her privacy and dignity.

 

[RealtorGal]

Yes, we'd all like answers to those questions (except I, personally couldn't care less about her love life)--but she knows very well that whatever she says will be fodder for more endless criticism, so why bother?

 

[soogar]

I think what hurts skating is that the best countries in the world can only send three skaters to Worlds. What makes tennis so interesting is that there are lots of people who can win a title. With this situation, I don't think there is a lot of incentive for up and comers to improve. Since there is a qualifying round, just send everyone and narrow the field and let the best duke it out. With the new scoring system, there will be quite a few upsets. Just speaking for the US. there are girls who are in the tops six who can catch Michelle on the technical mark or if they have a good skate. It would make things a lot more interesting.