Has the standard set in junior ladies now overtaken that of the senior ladies?

I think this is a bit of a low point for difficulty among the senior ladies, which is why the juniors seem so exciting right now. If this were 2009, for example, it wouldn't be as much of an issue. There also happens to be a lot of exciting juniors from one particular country that has obviously put a lot of effort into their program. That isn't normal either.

Also, skating isn't just about jumps. we all know that. The juniors might be eclipsing the seniors in jumps, but it's only in the jumps. The seniors are still superior in most of the other ways skating is measured.

Nadine said:

Oh brother here we go again.

The fixation on youth/children/Jonbenet Ramseys, so much so that a certain faction of the figure skating population wants to *lower* the age limit yet again. :disapp: I say a definite N-O to that idea. >8^<

Let them mature, become soup, adjust to their new bodies, and gain experience as they transition into seniors. Take their time, not rush them.

In fact if it was up to me, I would *raise* the age limit to 16, as that's the age (leastways here in North America) that a girl officially becomes a woman by way of a "Coming Out Party/Debutante Ball". Also, that's the age here in the USA that a minor can legally become an adult by emancipation from one's parents.

That said I'm happy with the age limit set at 15 by July 1st of the previous year. Lol that's the age a young girl becomes a woman in South America (aka "quincenera"). ^)

Anything below that age, NO. Also, I have to be honest I'm unhappy with the fact that juniors can also participate in the senior GP. Imho that's "double dipping" and something I do not approve of whatsoever. :disagree: There has to be a firm line drawn between seniors versus juniors, and no one shall cross over that line. Period.

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Completely agree with you!
And we think the 'audience' and fans are confused with scoring now.......add those little jumping beans in the mix and people will wonder why they're not winning everything with their killer jumps......or maybe they will and the rest of skating will look to be devalued. Just not a good idea, it's too much pressure on these young girls whose bodies are probably going to change and affect their ability. They need time to adjust (if they're affected by puberty) and I too worry about their health. I don't like when they peak at 13 or 14 and then have nothing to give after that because of all of the hype.

I agree with many of the points made so far. Juniors can jump and contort, but should stay as juniors. I would also raise the age to 16 for Srs. The current crop of Sr. Seniors is sort of weak - Mao, Carolina and Alissa are sort of the top and all have great qualities but aren't at the top of their game. Akiko and Ashley have great moment but we're still waiting for them to sustain. It does make the whole jr. level more interesting

Mao88 said:

New article from Jackie Wong. Article reads:-

Is he right? Is the current standard set down by the current crop of junior ladies of a higher order than the seniors? It is also worth remembering that Tuktamyseheva (who was not at junior worlds) is still technically a junior as she was age ineligible to compete at Euro's and senior Worlds. Hence, are Lipnitskaya, Tuktamysheva, Gold, Sotnikova, etc, a better quality group of skaters than Kostner, Czisny, Asada, Suzuki, Leonova, etc? If true, what does this say about the current age eligibility rules? I've thought for quite a while now that they should be relaxed and reduced by a year to must turn aged 14 prior to the previous 1st July (i.e. rather that the current aged 15). Two reasons. Firstly, it would get rid of the ludicrous inconsistency that a skater can be considered old enough to participate in the senior GP, but not senior worlds. Basically, the rules need to be harmonised.

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While the older group of skaters have qualities that the younger group of juniors don't have (yet), the reverse is true as well--the younger skaters have the advantages in jumps that the older group doesn't have. I think it's embarrassing the jump level that the senior ladies are attempting, and can't wait until next season when I expect Adelina, Liza, Julia, and Gracie to rule the GP scene. It's about time.

Secondly, to prevent the kind of injustice that occurred to Mao Asada (my favourite skater) back in 2006. In 2006, she was quite simply the best skater in the world. She had beaten Cohen, Arakawa, and Slutskaya fair and square. Yet, she was not allowed to skate at the 2006 Olympics simply because she missed the cut off point by a measly 87 days. That was completely unfair and unjust. I've never regarded Arakawa as the true 2006 Olympic champion, because ultimately she did not beat the best skater in the world to truly earn the title. Moreover, I have my doubts as to whether Mao can win the 2014 Olympics. If that turns out to be the case, then when you look back on her career in coming years, I think 2006 will have represented her best chance of becoming Olympic champion and the fact that she was prevented from competing for the sake of a poultry 87 days is just cruel. These are the kind of injustices the current rule creates. And lone behold, she was able to compete in the senior GP that season, winning the GP final! Where is the logic in all that of denying her the opportunity then of going for the Olympic title?

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Well, Adelina, Liza, Julia, Polina S, Polina K, are all eligible for the 2014 Olympics, so they're not going to be hurt by such an "injustice."

Speaking of this injustice, I am skeptical of the example that you provide. You hit upon a pet peeve of mine--the myth that Mao Asada would've won the 2006 Olympics had she been allowed to compete. Shizuka totally earned that gold medal. How does anyone know that a skater would've won a competition with as much pressure as the Olympics when they didn't compete there? I'm just not into awarding skaters imaginary medals for competitions they didn't attend and no one has any idea how they would've performed. Why not award Michelle Kwan the Olympic gold for 2006, had she been healthy and able to compete?

Last I checked, Mao Asada lost the 2006 Junior Worlds competition to Yu-Na Kim. You could argue that it was due to lack of motivation and desire to be there. But that doesn't explain why also in 2006, Mao had several FS meltdowns--2006 Skate America and the 2006 Grand Prix Final--proving she was not the "best skater in the world" in 2006 as you claim. She really struggled that year due to her growth spurt, she had major issues with her jumps, and it was already affecting her early in 2006.

You also don't know how Olympics pressure would have affected her in 2006. When Mao was in competitions with different types of pressure--defending the Junior World title in 2006, defending the GPF title in 2006, competing at her first senior Worlds in 2007--she did not win. There was zero guarantee that she would've won the Olympics had she been there. The achievement you note, winning the GP final, was done in the comfort and safety in Japan--something she wouldn't have had in Torino.

As for her beaten Shizuka, Irina, and Sasha fair and square...yeah, well she also lost to Irina once and lost to Fumie Suguri that season too! How do you know what would've happened at the Olympics? Funny how people fail to remember that when trotting out the whole, "Mao beat the Olympic medalists". :think:

There were two very talented skaters who were left out of the 2006 Olympics, the other being Yu-Na Kim, who had returned to the juniors for a second year. I wasn't even following juniors back then, but it would have been terribly unjust to Yu-Na if they had made a special exception for Mao to let her into the Olympics, but not given Yu-Na the same chance. I don't know how Yu-Na would've placed, but the same applies to Mao, too--I have no idea how she would have done.

To circle back to the original topic, I think allowing young juniors to compete on the senior GP though not 4CCs/Euros/Worlds allows those who take that path to ease into the pressures of a partial senior season, without having to stress about senior Worlds at the end of it. But then, it puts juniors like Adelina in an impossible situation, where she was really in a lose-lose situation going back to junior worlds after a fairly successful debut on the senior GP. If she won again, no one would be impressed; if she didn't, it would put a dent (albeit minor) in her reputation to lose to another junior.

But whatever the benefits may be for individual skaters like Liza, Adelina, and Mao, who all went to the senior GP before they were full seniors and made their mark, it does make the ISU look inconsistent in their rules that a skater can compete for the GPF--a significant competition--and not Worlds or the Olympics. And it also got them into unnecessary amounts of trouble in the 2005-2006 Olympic year with Mao winning the GPF. So if they were to change that rule, I wouldn't mind.

Even if there's a rule that you can't go back to juniors after competing in seniors (and there is a proposal on the table in that direction), I do think that there is value in having some overlap in the age limits for junior and senior (and lower levels).

Different skaters start skating at different ages, learn at different rates, hit growth spurts at different ages. Not all skaters with the same birth year who will eventually reach elite skill levels will get there at the same time. I wouldn't want to see a rule that no one over 16, for example, is allowed to compete at any level below senior and those who haven't reached that level by that age should just give up and quit, or at least give up hopes of an international career.

And boys tend to mature later than girls on average, in most ways. So maybe the age limits should be different for boys than for girls.

But there are always individual exceptions.


And yes, I agree that is kind of silly to have different age limits for fall competitions and for ISU championships.

So I guess I would be in favor of something like the junior limits we have now, or maybe allow girls to compete junior if they're 12by July 1. And for senior competitions -- all senior competitions -- maybe 14 for girls and 15 for boys.

But keep that overlap period of 15-18/19 so who reach a high level early can move to seniors at the lower end of that age range and skaters who are later bloomers can stay junior until they're closer to finished blooming.

gkelly said:

Even if there's a rule that you can't go back to juniors after competing in seniors (and there is a proposal on the table in that direction), I do think that there is value in having some overlap in the age limits for junior and senior (and lower levels).

Different skaters start skating at different ages, learn at different rates, hit growth spurts at different ages. Not all skaters with the same birth year who will eventually reach elite skill levels will get there at the same time. I wouldn't want to see a rule that no one over 16, for example, is allowed to compete at any level below senior and those who haven't reached that level by that age should just give up and quit, or at least give up hopes of an international career.

And boys tend to mature later than girls on average, in most ways. So maybe the age limits should be different for boys than for girls.

But there are always individual exceptions.


And yes, I agree that is kind of silly to have different age limits for fall competitions and for ISU championships.

So I guess I would be in favor of something like the junior limits we have now, or maybe allow girls to compete junior if they're 12by July 1. And for senior competitions -- all senior competitions -- maybe 14 for girls and 15 for boys.

But keep that overlap period of 15-18/19 so who reach a high level early can move to seniors at the lower end of that age range and skaters who are later bloomers can stay junior until they're closer to finished blooming.

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I completely agree with this. Nobody is saying scrap the age rules, just that they need to be amended at the margins to strike a better balance and prevent the kind of injustices that occurred to Mao Asada back in 2006 (which I referred to in post 1 above). I think the system that you have described and the rationale behind it, is a very good idea.

jaylee said:

Speaking of this injustice, I am skeptical of the example that you provide. You hit upon a pet peeve of mine--the myth that Mao Asada would've won the 2006 Olympics had she been allowed to compete. Shizuka totally earned that gold medal. How does anyone know that a skater would've won a competition with as much pressure as the Olympics when they didn't compete there? I'm just not into awarding skaters imaginary medals for competitions they didn't attend and no one has any idea how they would've performed. Why not award Michelle Kwan the Olympic gold for 2006, had she been healthy and able to compete?

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That's not the point. The point is that Mao Asada was unfairly deprived of the opportunity to compete. Had she been able to compete, in my view she would have stood an excellent chance of winning, because at that time, she had shown that she was the best skater in the world. For these reasons, there will always be a questionmark over Arakawa's Olympic win as one of her principal competitors was unfairly denied the opportunity to compete. OK, Mao may be my favourite skater and I may be a little biased in my views as to what happened to her, but I still think she was unfairly denied the opportunity to compete at the Olympics and that the rules are overly harsh in that respect. I mean, missing the cut off date by 87 days is a pretty silly reason for making a skater wait another 4 years to compete at the Olympics and for depriving her, of what in hindsight, may go down as being her best opportunity to win, given subsequent events.

jaylee said:

Last I checked, Mao Asada lost the 2006 Junior Worlds competition to Yu-Na Kim. You could argue that it was due to lack of motivation and desire to be there. But that doesn't explain why also in 2006, Mao had several FS meltdowns--2006 Skate America and the 2006 Grand Prix Final--proving she was not the "best skater in the world" in 2006 as you claim. She really struggled that year due to her growth spurt, she had major issues with her jumps, and it was already affecting her early in 2006.

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I agree that the 2006 junior worlds performance was probably due to being deflated at having to go back down to juniors again (having just competed in and won the senior GP). I mean, it must be pretty demotivating having to compete at junior worlds, when you could be competing at the Olympics instead, and when you have just won the senior GP. It is for these same reasons that Tuktamysheva passed over the opportunity to compete at this years world juniors (as she wished to focus on being a full time senior next season, having just competed in the senior GP). The 2006 Skate America and 2006 GP final are not relevant as they took placed during the following season. Mao was not in the same kind of form during 2006/07, as she had been during 2005/06. She didn't really get it back together again until 2007/08, the season in which she won her first world title.

jaylee said:

As for her beaten Shizuka, Irina, and Sasha fair and square...yeah, well she also lost to Irina once and lost to Fumie Suguri that season too!

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Slutskaya beat Asada at the Cup of China. However, that was Mao's very first senior competition. That takes some getting used to, and she finished a very good second. Moreover, she avenged that defeat by later beating Slutskaya in the GP final.

She finished 2nd to Suguri at Japanese nationals. However, Asada had only just competed in the GP final which took place between the 16th-18th December 2005. This was a competition that Suguri did not compete in. Japanese nationals took place just 1 week later between the 23rd - 25th December 2005. Asada was understandable tired (and still getting over the elation of having just won the senior GP final), and it was hardly surprising that she was not at her best and lost to a skater that was in a much better position to perform at their best. Its been said on a number of occasions that Japanese nationals come at a bad time for those skaters who make the GP final.

Mao88 said:

That's not the point. The point is that Mao Asada was unfairly deprived of the opportunity to compete. Had she been able to compete, in my view she would have stood an excellent chance of winning, because at that time, she had shown that she was the best skater in the world.

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No, Asada had shown that she was one of the best skaters in the world, that she could hold her own with the best and sometimes beat them. She had not shown that she would always beat them every time they competed against each other.

If she had competed in Torino, that would have been one more opportunity for her to test herself against most of the other top skaters in the world. But we don't know what the outcome would have been.

For these reasons, there will always be a questionmark over Arakawa's Olympic win as one of her principal competitors was unfairly denied the opportunity to compete.

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Or two, if you also include Yuna Kim who was also too young. If it was "unfair" for Asada to be denied the opportunity, then it was unfair for Kim as well.

And why not include Michelle Kwan, who was injured and had to withdraw from the Olympics? Or Yoshie Onda, who had beaten Arakawa in the free program at Japanese Nationals?

Each competition is new. Skaters with better general skills and better consistency will win more often. But there are never any guarantees.

Not necessarily. Senior ladies have the artisty and the competition experience that the juniors dont which make watching senior women so much better.... it is argueable that the junior ladies have a higher jump content which make the standard of junior ladies skating that much higher seeing as Miki won 2011 worlds w/o a 3-3... and seeing how Carolina was able to win Europeans w/o a 3Lz -> it is their artistry and presence on the ice which takes them that much further.

What I saw in Julia at JW last week, her quality of skating could have put her on the world podium (scored 187 points, Yu na scored 194 in 2nd and Caroline 184 in 3rd). I think right now because with the absence of Yu Na being extremely fantastic and Mao having a rough season and Joannie not competing atm.. there really isn't anyone absolutely guaranteed a medal at worlds.

Not to mention that for alot of girls JW is their peak because their bodies change and they may never get back to their form of being able to do 3-3s, not saying that they can't bounce back (Caroline Zhang/Mirai Nagasu peaked in 2007 and have been struggling ever since, we've seen Mirai do 3-3s in practice at the olympics, and Caroline is going for 3lo-3lo this season)

It might look like the standard of junior ladies is higher now that the senior ladies because of the lack of the 3-3 in last years worlds and this years grand prix final, but from seeing Ashley Wagner's performance at 4cc, i can't think of a junior lady that could top that.

If the junior ladies were allowed to compete in senior competition instead of being barred from winning a world medal, we wouldn't have this problem. Thing is, we have alot of senior men who are still eligible for junior competition coming back to JW and then flying over to senior worlds afterwards, and with all that talent it would be definitely a sight to see 'junior ladies' be just as good if not better than the 'senior ladies'.

gkelly said:

No, Asada had shown that she was one of the best skaters in the world, that she could hold her own with the best and sometimes beat them. She had not shown that she would always beat them every time they competed against each other.

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It is purely speculative as to who would have won. But, Asada would have been in with a very good chance of winning, if only she had been given the opportunity.

no matter how their jump contenst are
I still give my hats up to the senior skaters competing especially those in their late 20's like Kostner and Suzuki
barring what they have and without the injuries its still commendable at least they try their triple jumps

gkelly said:

I think it's cyclical, though.

The actual content level will trend upward over the years, but some years will be stronger than others for various reasons.

And Russian girls dominating the Junior World podium with some jump content rarely seen at the senior level doesn't necessarily mean they would go on to dominate at the senior level. Some made it as seniors, some didn't.

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I think this generation of Russian ladies is better than those previous generations. Their skaters now have more than just jumps to back them up.

AmuChan363 said:

Not necessarily. Senior ladies have the artisty and the competition experience that the juniors dont which make watching senior women so much better.... it is argueable that the junior ladies have a higher jump content which make the standard of junior ladies skating that much higher seeing as Miki won 2011 worlds w/o a 3-3... and seeing how Carolina was able to win Europeans w/o a 3Lz -> it is their artistry and presence on the ice which takes them that much further.

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Yes. Miki and Carolina were trying harder jumps as juniors (sorry, I can't find 2003). If they have lost some jumping skill, have they also gained other skills that help them to win?

gkelly said:

Yes. Miki and Carolina were trying harder jumps as juniors (sorry, I can't find 2003). If they have lost some jumping skill, have they also gained other skills that help them to win?

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Well Miki's "quad" was always kind of questionable even as a junior. In terms of her 3/3s I think the harder rules in rotation lead to her trying them less too. The rest of her jumps remained high quality throughout her career.... Carolina I don't think was ever the strongest jumper/was inconsistent her entire career.

I think both improved other aspects as they got older.

Mao88 said:

OK, Mao may be my favourite skater and I may be a little biased in my views as to what happened to her, but I still think she was unfairly denied the opportunity to compete at the Olympics and that the rules are overly harsh in that respect. I mean, missing the cut off date by 87 days is a pretty silly reason for making a skater wait another 4 years to compete at the Olympics and for depriving her, of what in hindsight, may go down as being her best opportunity to win, given subsequent events.

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Adelina missed the senior season for being born on 1st July!

Mao is my fav girl too and I loved her first season in gp, but lets say if they changed rules and made the cut off date one day later, woudlnt it be unfair for the x girl that missed Olympics for just 86 days? Or if they didnt change rules and made an exception it wouldnt be unfair to other juniors who would have been eligible by the Mao exception rule but didnt go to olympic qualifier events earlier in the season?I think that was the case of Yuna?
As to Arakawa's unfair win because she hadnt beaten the best in the world, you mean the very best in the world a day before Olys started? she beated Irina who was reigning World Champion for example even if she lost to Asada in gp. And competitions are never "the best in the world" wins, usually it is the best who competes that day wins.
For all I know E. Radionova might be winning all things in 2013-2014 but wont be eligible for Olys, that doesnt mean the eligible russian girls wont deserve a medal because best in the world Elena isnt there.

Here is an old Phil Hersh article on the Mao Asada issue entitled: 'Can Mao Asada’s time have passed if it never happened?'. Interesting read.

Also note what Phil says about the Mao of 2005/06:-

She was....the best women's figure skater in the world, winner of the 2005 Grand Prix Final, the one about whom everyone said: "Mao? Wow!".....Asada had the bad luck of having been born 87 days too late to meet the International Skating Union's minimum age requirement — 15 years old by July 1 of the preceding year — for the Winter Olympics.

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Article was written just before the 2010 Olympics and makes the following point:-

As Asada makes her long anticipated Olympic debut in the women's short program Tuesday night, the question is whether her time has come — or gone. Her recent struggles would suggest the latter.

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Of course, Mao was able to pull it all together and win Olympic silver. But, with Kim Yu-Na in the form of her life, Mao stood little chance of winning the gold. Hence, it is especially unfortunate that she missed out on the 2006 Olympics, when she had a much more realistic chance of winning the title. As previously stated, I have real doubts as to whether she can win in 2014 given her erratic form of the last 2 years, and the level of competition she will be up against. If that does out to be the case, 2006 will therefore have been her best opportunity - an opportunity that was denied to her.

I rather see how they actually do as women and see how truly great they are. That's just me.

I really enjoy the juniors, novice and immediate. I get excited to see karen chen, julia etc. I followed Mao, Yuna, Carolina in juniors and I was glad to see how great they had become as seniors. That's what I want to see. I don't want to see skaters win big, lose all their jumps and disappear. It would nice to see them continue on.

sky_fly20 said:

no matter how their jump contenst are
I still give my hats up to the senior skaters competing especially those in their late 20's like Kostner and Suzuki
barring what they have and without the injuries its still commendable at least they try their triple jumps

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I would never put Kostner and Suzuki in a same category, though.

The most difficult jump Kostner has tried this season so far is individual 3F. She hasn't even tried a 3F combo. She doesn't have to take any risk because she knows high PCS is always guaranteed to her. Young girls try very hard to add an additional point to their TES while the judges have already decided to give her more +10 points in PCS. She can play as safe as she can, minimizing her risk of getting injured.

On the other hand, Suzuki has to take risk as much as young ones, or even more. She has never been a judges' favorite, and always low-balled in PCS. She doesn't get her own federation's support like those Russian girls. Look at what happened to her and Murakami at 2010 GPF.

I for one agree with the age limits on seniors. The little girls are for the most part shorter, leaner more flexible and can rotate faster than ladies and as a result they can pack a more technical punch. Is it really fair to have them compete against ladies? Do we really want a sport to devolve to where most of the competitors range in age from 12 to 17 years?

Good point lantern bearer. It is not just the technical elements it is how they are done. Often you need the maturity in body to get the oomph or the amplitude. Remember Tara Lipinski's jumps weren't really known for their power whereas Chouinard when on, Irina and even \Maria when on had power! You can't just go by rotations. There was sophistication that if not added to the GOE's on tes certainly go towards pcs for the "mature" skater. Sometimies youthful vitality can't make up for experience especially in the pcs or the quality of elements ie spins. Despite Butyrskaya's problems she had a certain presence and elegance on the ice. That comes with life experience. But those are my thoughts.

I am not totally convinced by the "too young." argument. The reason for having a world championship is to see who is the best skater, not who is the best skater who is not [too young, too old, too tall, too skinny, wrong color hair, etc.]

If we think that little girls don't have the artistry that more mature women bring, then a better approach would be to change the rules so that this aspect of skating is more heavily rewarded. That would accomplish the same purpose -- underaged jumping beans would not be competitive with older skaters. They would not be successful on the senior circuit and the problem would be solved by natural selection rather than by arbitrary rules about who was born on what day in July.