Has the standard set in junior ladies now overtaken that of the senior ladies?

[Mao88]

Has the standard set in junior ladies now overtaken that of the senior ladies?

New article from Jackie Wong. Article reads:-

I guarantee that you will not see the same level of difficulty executed at senior Worlds [in the ladies event] later this month, [as displayed at junior Worlds]. it’s not the first time that the junior ladies have been stronger technically than the senior ladies. Going back to the past four Worlds and Junior Worlds, the junior ladies landed more combinations with a backend triple jump during two of those years (2008 and 2011). [In] this years [junior Worlds], eight ladies landed triple-triples in the short program. And in the free skate, 15 backend-triple combinations were landed between ten ladies, seven of which were triple-triples (the other eight were double axel-triple toes). This is a feat that won’t be matched at senior Worlds, guaranteed. The difference [now] with some of these [junior] ladies, is the fact that they are truly natural jumpers.

Is he right? Is the current standard set down by the current crop of junior ladies of a higher order than the seniors? It is also worth remembering that Tuktamyseheva (who was not at junior worlds) is still technically a junior as she was age ineligible to compete at Euro's and senior Worlds. Hence, are Lipnitskaya, Tuktamysheva, Gold, Sotnikova, etc, a better quality group of skaters than Kostner, Czisny, Asada, Suzuki, Leonova, etc? If true, what does this say about the current age eligibility rules? I've thought for quite a while now that they should be relaxed and reduced by a year to must turn aged 14 prior to the previous 1st July (i.e. rather that the current aged 15). Two reasons. Firstly, it would get rid of the ludicrous inconsistency that a skater can be considered old enough to participate in the senior GP, but not senior worlds. Basically, the rules need to be harmonised. Secondly, to prevent the kind of injustice that occurred to Mao Asada (my favourite skater) back in 2006. In 2006, she was quite simply the best skater in the world. She had beaten Cohen, Arakawa, and Slutskaya fair and square. Yet, she was not allowed to skate at the 2006 Olympics simply because she missed the cut off point by a measly 87 days. That was completely unfair and unjust. I've never regarded Arakawa as the true 2006 Olympic champion, because ultimately she did not beat the best skater in the world to truly earn the title. Moreover, I have my doubts as to whether Mao can win the 2014 Olympics. If that turns out to be the case, then when you look back on her career in coming years, I think 2006 will have represented her best chance of becoming Olympic champion and the fact that she was prevented from competing for the sake of a poultry 87 days is just cruel. These are the kind of injustices the current rule creates. And lone behold, she was able to compete in the senior GP that season, winning the GP final! Where is the logic in all that of denying her the opportunity then of going for the Olympic title? Hence, a better balance needs to be found which removes injustices like this and which harmonises eligibility for the GP and Worlds/Olympics. But, that is by the by. So, has the standard of junior ladies overtaken senior ladies, as Jackie Wongs article suggests, and if so, what are the wider ramifications of that?

 

[koatcue]

I agree that the age restriction should be changed. These girls are the future of skating. For me - they are more entertaining to watch than senior girls. That speaks volumes

 

[gkelly]

With the ladies, it's often true that the best juniors do harder jumps than the best seniors, and also sometimes harder spins. This isn't a new phenomenon.

Some of these girls (I wouldn't predict which) may lose some of their jumping, and spinning, ability as they get bigger or curvier and/or suffer injuries. They may still continue to be competitive if their basic skating and presentation continue to improve.

Others may maintain or even improve their technical content as seniors, and if they also improve their basic skating and presentation then they will likely place well as seniors.

But three or five or ten years from now or whenever some of the current juniors are dominating in seniors, there will be new juniors spinning even faster in the air and in positions only children can get into, and the same question will arise again.

 

[koatcue]

I don't think that there are so many REALLY talented juniors EVERY year..That's rather rare. That's why such splash of them causes so many discussions - they are really good

 

[gkelly]

Yes, that's true. Whenever a cohort of especially talented kids comes along, during the years that they are 13-14-15 after July 1, then the talent level and/or jump content in juniors may be notably higher than in seniors. And then when that cohort moves into seniors, the senior level may be higher than in juniors, until another strong group comes along.

 

[macy]

the reason why many seniors lose their jumps and struggle technically is because their body changes as they get older. some of them also become headcases, which happens as you get older too (you begin to think about things more). the juniors may be fun to watch now, but as they grow things will change and a lot of them won't be able to perform the same. but of course every year the juniors will be great to watch because most of them are itty bitty and can do everything.

 

[jenaj]

It used to be that younger skaters couldn't compete against the older ones because they didn't have the artistry. Now that artistry has been devalued, there isn't that much reason not to let them compete, especially since they are eligible for the Grand Prix and national competitions. But better yet, I think artistry should be given more weight than it is in the current system.

 

[fairly4]

no, just because julia got a decent score, for me she is still a junior and skates like one.
the cop helps the juniors because it focuses on jumps, but the pc artistry part is still left undone, she is still growing and maturing which wont show her true potential until she reaches and skates in seniors for a year.

for me i judge junior to a different standard for pcs scores, in relation to junior type skating, and i judge senior pc scores in relation to senior type skating.

just because can do jumps and do well in juniors sometimes doesnt correlate to seniors. senior should be judge harsher and harder with respect to pcs , in other words they should understand and interpret music better and in time more, not just move to them, and have jumps better down. i realize they have done that. but for me that is i how judge them

 

[jatale]

If you only want the most jumps, spins, etc. then why have any age limit? Taking this line of reasoning to its end conclusion - we'd probably have a field of little girls competing in the Olympics. I mean pre-puberty little girls, no curves no nothing just cute little jumping beans and contortionists. If that is what women's gymnastics and skating turns into then I predict there will be NO AUDIENCE for it. This whole reducing the age of eligibility is ridiculous in my opinion. I think ONLY ADULTS should be able to compete in the senior Olympics, and that means 18 (EIGHTEEN) as the entry age for both men and women. At least calling them "men" and "women" would then be correct syntax! Fortunately, for most Olympic sports the best athletes are 18 or older, only in female gymnastics and figure skating is it a problem.

 

[R.D.]

Agreed. I want to watch women compete, not little girls.

ETA: And now with the Youth Olympics, we can solve the problem. Have the young ones compete there, and save the real Olympics for the grown-ups.

 

[koatcue]

Agreed. I want to watch women compete, not little girls.

ETA: And now with the Youth Olympics, we can solve the problem. Have the young ones compete there, and save the real Olympics for the grown-ups.

....who can be worse than juniors in so many ways...

 

[silverlake22]

Yes, the standard has for sure increased. I mean, remember a few years back when Becky Bereswill won the JGPF and Gilles and Dobbs both qualified? Dobbs only had 3t and 3s....no way would a lady with that content qualify now. Well, I guess Anna Shershak almost did, but she does have a 3-3, and she only came as close as she did because Hicks had to withdraw. The technical standards have definitely been raised a LOT in the recent years.

 

[Mrs. P]

In my view, juniors are like candy. So sweet, but you can only have some much. Sure the jumps and flexibility moves are awesome, but in the end you're not satisfied.

I know Carolina Kostner gets picked on a lot for her lack of a lutz, but her speed, carriage, skating skills and programs are second to none. And none of the juniors have the power of a Joannie Rochette. Or the choreography and step sequences of Akiko Suzuki.

To me the senior ladies are more balanced meal.

In the end, the junior ladies will only set a higher standard IF they keep that jump content and continue to grow in other areas as they move up to seniors. Yuna Kim and Mao Asada did great in juniors (both had the tech) but really blossomed as seniors. I hope to see the same for this group of juniors.

 

[gkelly]

I think it's cyclical, though.

The actual content level will trend upward over the years, but some years will be stronger than others for various reasons.

And Russian girls dominating the Junior World podium with some jump content rarely seen at the senior level doesn't necessarily mean they would go on to dominate at the senior level. Some made it as seniors, some didn't.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think it's cyclical, though.

The actual content level will trend upward over the years, but some years will be stronger than others for various reasons.

And Russian girls dominating the Junior World podium with some jump content rarely seen at the senior level doesn't necessarily mean they would go on to dominate at the senior level. Some made it as seniors, some didn't.

Well, using my candy example; you can only fuel yourself so much with sugar — i.e. difficult jumps. Eventually, if you want to sustain yourself, you actually have to a more well-balanced diet — choreography, presence, expression, spins, etc.

I think that's the key to success. And actually I think this group of ladies will have it. It's clear they are working on those details, hence why we're all impressed.

I didn't follow figure skating in the mid-1990s so closely, was there a lot of hype for these juniors? I don't recall. But I think that's mainly a reflection that there was no YouTube or skating board probably to keep track of them so closely.

 

[Jammers]

The rule should simple be if these girls turn 15 before the Olympics or Worlds they should be able to compete none of this turning 15 before the previous July 1st ********. I mean they can compete on the Senior GP against the top Ladies at 14 so what's the difference?

 

[gkelly]

Well, using my candy example; you can only fuel yourself so much with sugar — i.e. difficult jumps. Eventually, if you want to sustain yourself, you actually have to a more well-balanced diet — choreography, presence, expression, spins, etc.

Yes, I agree. Jumps alone won't always win, especially at the big events. All that other stuff counts too. The basic skating probably counts the most, so the kids who already excel at that as juniors will probably continue to be good and may get better as they get older.

I didn't follow figure skating in the mid-1990s so closely, was there a lot of hype for these juniors? I don't recall. But I think that's mainly a reflection that there was no YouTube or skating board probably to keep track of them so closely.

I didn't see a lot of hype for them in the US media. I bet there was more in Russian media. Slutskaya probably got the most, but more because she started making a splash in senior events at 15. And she's the one who went on to win the most senior medals.

Sokolova I think got more than her share of attention from US media based more on her looks (which, yes, includes things like posture and facial expression to the music that can legitimately affect the scores) than her skating talent. But she's the other one who ended up with a world medal, so good for her.

 

[Olympia]

Whenever I see stories encouraging skating to allow the younger skaters into senior competitions, I think of something I read about American gymnast Kurt Thomas, who was our best male gymnasts in the days before age limits in gymnastics. Someone asked him if he had ever dated a gymnast, and he said he couldn't, because they were all little girls. The disparity of men and sprites made gymnastics hard for me to watch in those just-post-Nadia days.

I think that skating might be taken over by the jumping beans for awhile if junior-age girls were allowed to compete internationally as seniors, but as many of you have said, skating might suffer with the change. The really little girls often look programmed to me. They can't really convey the emotion in more complex music, so their best bet is to skate to pieces that are cute and pert, as they are. Say goodbye to Gershwin! Also, I fear that the demands of a longer program (and practicing for it) might wear out their growing bodies.

If people decide to let in the wunderkinds in, we'll all adjust, but I have to say that it will take a rare talent to outdo someone like Asada or Joannie for me. I will worry about their health and safety, too.

 

[Nadine]

Oh brother here we go again.

The fixation on youth/children/Jonbenet Ramseys, so much so that a certain faction of the figure skating population wants to *lower* the age limit yet again. :disapp: I say a definite N-O to that idea. >8^<

Let them mature, become soup, adjust to their new bodies, and gain experience as they transition into seniors. Take their time, not rush them.

In fact if it was up to me, I would *raise* the age limit to 16, as that's the age (leastways here in North America) that a girl officially becomes a woman by way of a "Coming Out Party/Debutante Ball". Also, that's the age here in the USA that a minor can legally become an adult by emancipation from one's parents.

That said I'm happy with the age limit set at 15 by July 1st of the previous year. Lol that's the age a young girl becomes a woman in South America (aka "quincenera"). ^)

Anything below that age, NO. Also, I have to be honest I'm unhappy with the fact that juniors can also participate in the senior GP. Imho that's "double dipping" and something I do not approve of whatsoever. :disagree: There has to be a firm line drawn between seniors versus juniors, and no one shall cross over that line. Period.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Oh brother here we go again.

The fixation on youth/children/Jonbenet Ramseys, so much so that a certain faction of the figure skating population wants to *lower* the age limit yet again. :disapp: I say a definite N-O to that idea. >8^<

Let them mature, become soup, adjust to their new bodies, and gain experience as they transition into seniors. Take their time, not rush them.

In fact if it was up to me, I would *raise* the age limit to 16, as that's the age (leastways here in North America) that a girl officially becomes a woman by way of a "Coming Out Party/Debutante Ball". Also, that's the age here in the USA that a minor can legally become an adult by emancipation from one's parents.

That said I'm happy with the age limit set at 15 by July 1st of the previous year. Lol that's the age a young girl becomes a woman in South America (aka "quincenera"). ^)

Anything below that age, NO. Also, I have to be honest I'm unhappy with the fact that juniors can also participate in the senior GP. Imho that's "double dipping" and something I do not approve of whatsoever. :disagree: There has to be a firm line drawn between seniors versus juniors, and no one shall cross over that line. Period.

I absolutely, 100% agree.