2014 Olympics in future history - Berlin all over again?

[Buttercup]

RUSSIA WON THE 2014 OLYMPICS. GET OVER IT!!!

How does a country win the entire Olympics? Do you mean it won the right to host them? That it won the most medals? Do be specific next time. I mean, Slovenia won the Olympics if you look at medals by GDP, and Norway if you look at medals per capita (source).

Still, repulsive as I find many of Putin's policies and actions, this is not 1936 redux. And it's not often that Godwin's Law can be invoked right off the bat.

 

[Manitou]

I love Russia, I love Russian culture, it's a truly wonderful country and people. Politics? I am not much interested.

But speaking of politics, maybe I don't understand something, but if majority of Crimea or Donieck Region are Russians, shouldn't the current procedure be a referendum? Quebec has full democratic right to organize a referendum regarding its independence or being part of France or China or whatever, so shouldn't the people of Crimea and Donieck have exactly the same rights? If California one day declares a will to depart from the Union, then again - the referendum is the answer, correct? No troops, no deaths, no international drama. The people should have the voice, not politicians or generals.
So instead of troops, street protests or Western support for Ukrainian unity, etc, shouldn't there be a referendum? And if the people decide: we want to be part of Russia, then this is what it is. This is the will of the people and it's final.
I understand Russia would try to manipulate the referendum, but this is why there are international observers, correct?

 

[zschultz1986]

I love Russia, I love Russian culture, it's a truly wonderful country and people. Politics? I am not much interested.

But speaking of politics, maybe I don't understand something, but if majority of Crimea or Donieck Region are Russians, shouldn't the current procedure be a referendum? Quebec has full democratic right to organize a referendum regarding its independence or being part of France or China or whatever, so shouldn't the people of Crimea and Donieck have exactly the same rights? If California one day declares a will to depart from the Union, then again - the referendum is the answer, correct? No troops, no deaths, no international drama. The people should have the voice, not politicians or generals.
So instead of troops, street protests or Western support for Ukrainian unity, etc, shouldn't there be a referendum? And if the people decide: we want to be part of Russia, then this is what it is. This is the will of the people and it's final.
I understand Russia would try to manipulate the referendum, but this is why there are international observers, correct?

It should, but you're forgetting, Eastern Europe isn't really a hot bed of democracy, either now or in the past. Why solve things with protest and voting, when you can have ethnic cleansing and dictators committing atrocities! Instead of letting the people determine the outcome (which IS what happened in Kiev. The EU deal was just the last straw with Yanukovych. Russia and its supporters may claim western interference, but we did not put troops on the ground to stymie the democratic process.) Russia, which has a laughable history with civil and human rights, has gone in under the (flimsy) pretense of defending ethnic Russians and their military base. However, it's a land grab, plain and simple.

I am not saying Putin is Hitler. I'm saying the parallels are interesting between what happened during and after the Berlin games, and during and after these games.

Putin is actually a rather predicable leader. He didn't get the outcome he wanted with politics, so he's using military. He did it in Georgia. He's doing it in Ukraine. I love how people have this idea that Putin is some master politician because of Syria. He's not. Had we not given him his way, he would have just solved his problem with military might.

Americans see what Obama is doing (it's called diplomacy) and call him a weak leader. Which I find hilarious, because we have gotten so used to doing the same thing as Putin is doing now. However, showing military might doesn't mean you're a strong leader... doing everything you can to avoid using a military remedy is. If John McCain had been the president, we'd probably be in about 5 wars right now.

 

[Manitou]

Instead of letting the people determine the outcome (which IS what happened in Kiev.

To be technically correct, I wouldn't classify the events in Kiev as a democratic process. It was a revolt. The democratic process would be if Yanukovich were outvoted in elections, not in violent protests. Of course, it's not always possible, it was him who broke the democratic agreement with the people by ordering to shoot at them, it was him who lost his credibility as the President of the people, so the violence was probably the only possible solution to remove him from power.

diplomacy) and call him a weak leader. Which I find hilarious, because we have gotten so used to doing the same thing as Putin is doing now. However, showing military might doesn't mean you're a strong leader... doing everything you can to avoid using a military remedy is. If John McCain had been the president, we'd probably be in about 5 wars right now.

There are bad wars and there are good wars. Most of them are bad, but there are situations when a war is the only solution to oppression or injustice. There were such cases in history. What is the solution to help the oppressed people of North Korea? Is it diplomacy? I don't think so. What is the solution to help women of Afghanistan? Diplomacy? I don't think so. What is the solution to drive fanatical terrorists out of their caves? Diplomacy and dialog? I don't think so.
Yes, threatening with military might is usually a sign of political weakness, but it helps to have this card to play. Thugs don't listen to moral speeches. Thugs respect only physical strength.

So the point is that if you don't have military might then you don't a political voice either. This is how it works, I guess.

 

[Olympia]

And let's not forget, one of the reasons our hands are tied in this situation is that we've overextended ourselves militarily in other directions. If we had no troops on active duty in the Middle East, and had not spent so much money on twelve years of war, we would have more leeway to flex our military muscles here.

But I agree that using other means is preferable. One of the things Putin showed by making the Sochi Olympics such a showcase for Russia is that he wants Russia to look like a prestigious member of the world community. He isn't trying to impress Syria or Iran. They don't value international sports movements or multinational cooperation in scientific or technological advances. Putin is trying to impress Europe, the U.S., Canada, Australia, Japan, and other industrialized countries. Russia wants to be a member of the G8 and other international groups because it will help the country prosper. So in using its old militaristic approach, Russia is putting itself in a vulnerable position. This can be used to persuade Russia to consider its actions carefully. Russia has an automatic veto in the U.N., but it has no such power in the G8 or other world organizations.

 

[Mafke]

But speaking of politics, maybe I don't understand something, but if majority of Crimea or Donieck Region are Russians, shouldn't the current procedure be a referendum?

Due to Stalinist internal population politics. The original population are tatars who mostly want to stay in Ukraine.

Plus, Russia gave up any territorial claim to any part of Ukraine about 20 years ago, so joining Russia isn't really an option (and does Crimea have enough base for an independent economy)?

A link to someone who knows the history

http://jpohl.blogspot.com/2014/02/crimea-is-homeland-of-crimean-tatars.html

 

[zschultz1986]

To be technically correct, I wouldn't classify the events in Kiev as a democratic process. It was a revolt. The democratic process would be if Yanukovich were outvoted in elections, not in violent protests. Of course, it's not always possible, it was him who broke the democratic agreement with the people by ordering to shoot at them, it was him who lost his credibility as the President of the people, so the violence was probably the only possible solution to remove him from power.



There are bad wars and there are good wars. Most of them are bad, but there are situations when a war is the only solution to oppression or injustice. There were such cases in history. What is the solution to help the oppressed people of North Korea? Is it diplomacy? I don't think so. What is the solution to help women of Afghanistan? Diplomacy? I don't think so. What is the solution to drive fanatical terrorists out of their caves? Diplomacy and dialog? I don't think so.
Yes, threatening with military might is usually a sign of political weakness, but it helps to have this card to play. Thugs don't listen to moral speeches. Thugs respect only physical strength.

So the point is that if you don't have military might then you don't a political voice either. This is how it works, I guess.

The thing is, it started as protests. I don't understand why leaders (especially autocratic, egocentric ones) USUALLY handle these wrong. You could meet with them, appease them, and then, you'd still be in power. But no, you pass laws banning protests, which brings even WORSE retribution. Yanukovich brought this on himself. He was a puppet of Putin, and a pretty clear one at that.

I'm not saying military might is never justified. Sometime it is a necessary evil. However, my Government (America) has been overly quick in the past and present to resort to force. It's a sign that you only know how to solve problems with force, and it's a BAD sign. The fact that we have NOT gone to war with Iran and Syria, and are at the table with both, is a sign that this administration, is trying to use EVERY tool in the box, and see war as a last resort (which it should be.)

North Korea is propped up by China, so unless China wants to bring them to the table (which they could), so the DPRK is going to continue to be ruled by a family of deranged megalomaniacs.

Getting back to Ukraine... I have no doubt this was the plan all along, in Russia. Take whatever little excuse other countries give to invade and conquer. Just watch, the next thing Russia will be cracking down on the press, and more oppression for those Putin sees as "not true Russians."

 

[Manitou]

Just heard it now.
A Russian at the customs on an Eastern European airport:
- Nationality?
- Russian
- Occupation?
- Oh, no, just visiting.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Just heard it now.
A Russian at the customs on an Eastern European airport:
- Nationality?
- Russian
- Occupation?
- Oh, no, just visiting.

Very good! It's always refreshing at times like this when somebody injects a bit of humour!


Just thought I should do this, as there seems to be a lot of confusion.


A (Very) Brief History Of The Crimea In The 20th Century (as I understand it)

The Crimea became part of Russia in 1783. Russia’s Black Sea Fleet was founded in Sevastopol in 1783, and has been based there ever since.

In 1945, a post-war re-organisation of the USSR meant the Crimea was separated from Russia and became a Soviet Republic in its own right.

In 1954 (after Stalin’s death), the Crimea was integrated into the Ukrainian SSR. The new Soviet leader, Khrushchev, was from a town near the Ukrainian border, and it was also the 300th anniversary of the Ukraine forming an alliance Russia. So, this was a perfect opportunity to make a symbolic gesture to show the strength of the ties between Russia and the Ukraine.

However, Sevastopol remained under direct Russian control until 1978, when it was transferred to the Ukraine.

After the break up of the USSR, the Crimea declared independence in early 1992, but within months agreed to become an autonomous republic within the Ukraine. In 1993, the Ukrainian and Russian governments agreed that Sevastopol would remain Russian territory.

Demography

In 1944, Stalin deported the indigenous population (the Crimean Tatars) to Central Asia, saying that they collaborated with the Nazis.

My personal opinion is that this was merely an excuse to take action to avoid the potential future problem of having an unfriendly Muslim population on the doorstep of Russia’s main naval base in the region. It was a perfect opportunity for Stalin to get the Crimean Tatars as far away from Sevastopol as possible, and to replace them with a population that would be more friendly towards Russia.

And that is exactly what happened.

After the break up of the USSR, the Tatars were allowed to return to the Crimea. But, not many did. The result is that the population of the Crimea is currently roughly 60% Russian, 25% Ukrainian and 12% Tatar.


So, given these facts, it is hardly surprising that Russia does not want the Crimea to be in the hands of a Ukrainian government that is not friendly towards Russia.

Putin may like winding up the West, and flexing his muscles. But, I am sure that he realises actual military action against the Ukraine would be a big mistake.

To me, the Russian military build-up around the Ukraine is just to make a point. Show the new Ukrainian regime that if they step out of line, Russia could react if it wanted.

The threat of action is often more effective than actual action. Just look at the Cold War. Although they didn’t like each other, the threat of getting nuked was enough to stop the USA and the USSR taking any action against each other.

A lot of this current crisis is because the media have fallen for Putin’s act big time! They have heard that Putin is flexing his muscles at the Ukraine, and have started reporting back to the Western World without bothering to look at, never mind understand, the background situation.

Like, I won’t name the channel, but I heard a reporter talking about the military build up the other day, and using as an example that Russian warships were patrolling the waters around the Crimea.

FOR GOODNESS SAKE, THEY ARE BASED THERE!!!

More worryingly, though, another channel were doing a live interview with their reporter “on the ground” about the Russian warships, and the reporter explained that the Russian Navy had their base in the Crimea. But, when they did the interview again an hour later, this was never mentioned at all.

It is almost as if the media are deliberately trying to escalate the crisis.

Too many journalists have got lazy in the past 20 years or so. They report things straight away without checking the facts. And, if it turns out they have got things wrong, they might issue an apology later. But, it may take, weeks, months, even years for the apology to appear. By which stage, the damage has already been done.

And it has got a whole lot worse with the rise of the internet, and social networking.


This whole situation in the Crimea is a perfect example of how things can get out of hand very quickly.

Let’s hope it gets sorted out before we start having blood shed.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

How does a country win the entire Olympics? Do you mean it won the right to host them? That it won the most medals? Do be specific next time. I mean, Slovenia won the Olympics if you look at medals by GDP, and Norway if you look at medals per capita (source).

Cool link!

Just to clarify, I was referring to the medals table.

Rank	NOC	Total	Gold	Silver	Bronze
1	Russia (RUS)	33	13	11	9
2	United States (USA)	28	9	7	12
3	Norway (NOR)	26	11	5	10
4	Canada (CAN)	25	10	10	5
5	Netherlands (NED)	24	8	7	9
6	Germany (GER)	19	8	6	5
7	Austria (AUT)	17	4	8	5
8	France (FRA)	15	4	4	7
9	Sweden (SWE)	15	2	7	6
10	Switzerland (SUI)	11	6	3	2
11	China (CHN)	9	3	4	2
12	South Korea (KOR)	8	3	3	2
13	Czech Republic (CZE)	8	2	4	2
14	Slovenia (SLO)	8	2	2	4
15	Japan (JPN)	8	1	4	3
16	Italy (ITA)	8	0	2	6
17	Belarus (BLR)	6	5	0	1
18	Poland (POL)	6	4	1	1
19	Finland (FIN)	5	1	3	1
20	Great Britain (GBR)	4	1	1	2
21	Latvia (LAT)	4	0	2	2
22	Australia (AUS)	3	0	2	1
23	Ukraine (UKR)	2	1	0	1
24	Slovakia (SVK)	1	1	0	0
25	Croatia (CRO)	1	0	1	0
26	Kazakhstan (KAZ)	1	0	0	1
Total (26 NOCs)	295	99	97	99

I have ordered this table by the total medals count. But, for those of you obsessed with Gold, Russia also won on this count. And I only noticed there now that Russia also topped the Silver Medal count!

Hope this clears things up

CaroLiza_fan

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Not that it really makes a difference, but if Victor An (who won 3 golds and a bronze) hadn't defected from South Korea and Vic Wild (who won two golds) hadn't become a Russian citizen and stayed American, Russia would have had 5 less golds and 6 less medals, and placed 5th in medal color and 3rd in medal number. Of course, they totally got their citizenships fair and square, but nothing like gaining a couple international born skaters to give yourself a medal boost at your own home Games.

Back to the topic... wow, I guess Putin didn't waste any time. This says it all. http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/russia-february-vs-march.jpg

 

[Olympia]

One might say that if Putin wanted the Olympics to show that Russia was a part of the international community and the brotherhood of sport, not to mention a tantalizing, enjoyable tourist destination, he just wasted his entire investment by choosing unilateral military action instead of diplomatic avenues. The iron fist is so unattractive as the logo for a winter getaway locale, don't you think?

 

[gmyers]

Not that it really makes a difference, but if Victor An (who won 3 golds and a bronze) hadn't defected from South Korea and Vic Wild (who won two golds) hadn't become a Russian citizen and stayed American, Russia would have had 5 less golds and 6 less medals, and placed 5th in medal color and 3rd in medal number. Of course, they totally got their citizenships fair and square, but nothing like gaining a couple international born skaters to give yourself a medal boost at your own home Games.

Back to the topic... wow, I guess Putin didn't waste any time. This says it all. http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/russia-february-vs-march.jpg

Yeah and iouri podlikov and Slovakian biathlete are russian born blah blah blah

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yeah and iouri podlikov and Slovakian biathlete are russian born blah blah blah

Podlatchikov started to compete for Switzerland after Turin in 2006, well before Sochi. As for Kuzmina, she switched to Slovakian citizenship in 2008 through marriage, after Russian officials wouldn't allow her to take her child to training camps.

Neither scenario is quite like switching to represent in Russia in 2011 and gain citizenship, right before the next Olympics in Russia.

 

[Mafke]

Ha HA! I'ts not just me.

http://nypost.com/2014/03/15/obama-has-his-munich-moment-with-putin-and-crimea/

Okay, it's just the Post, but others have noted the parallels between a dictator using the olympics as propoganda followed by aggressively expansive politics.

 

[sky_fly20]

also 30 gold medals in Paralympics and 80+ total medals :yay:
in Russia there is high joy and Olympic spirit, luckily they don't give a damn about what the outside countries thinks

pls If Crimea wants a referendum for reunification
that's their choice given right as a semi autonomous region anyways
will of the majority period !

 

[Mafke]

in Russia there is high joy and Olympic spirit, luckily they don't give a damn about what the outside countries thinks
pls If Crimea wants a referendum for reunification that's their choice given right as a semi autonomous region anyways
will of the majority period!

See? Propoganda works! All Putin has to do is kill, jail or shut down anyone who criticizes him and the masses of serfs will love him.

A referendum under foreign military occupation is hardly binding. Especially when the country they want to join gave up all claim to them almost 20 years ago (and we don't want to get into the question of where the Russians in Crimea came from either....).

 

[sky_fly20]

Freedom !!!

93% in favor of secession
Russians of course will favor their mother country
Crimea was given as a gift, but of course I wont lecture anyone further here
as clearly being ignorant of Russian history and culture
a Russian doesnt bow to a foreign force or foreign threat / invasion

Kosovo - yes
Crimea - No

lol, even the inernational observer on the referrendum said its legit
boo hoo

 

[Mafke]

Lesson learned.

Promises by the Russian government mean nothing.

Having Russians in your country is a very, very, very bad idea.

 

[Olympia]

My heart is breaking for the bloodshed. Do people think that if they keep bringing war into the world, they will finally get it right? It hasn't worked so far.

You know, in the old days, when Russia didn't have a money economy, they could afford to stand alone against the world. Now they want to be part of the free market system, which means that a certain amount of accommodation is necessary. Has anyone noticed how quickly the value of the ruble has been sinking?