2014 Rostelecom Cup Free Dance 11/15 | Page 19 | Golden Skate

2014 Rostelecom Cup Free Dance 11/15

sisinka

Medalist
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Victoria Sinitsina & Nikita Katsalapov:

Gifted levels noticed in some of previous posts.

Overall Skating Skills are quite good, the difference between partners is more visible than I would expected, but another amount of hard work will correct this. Speed is good, they are one of faster teams in today’s field.

Some choreo parts were not executed like it should be – exit of the spin, some moment at the end of program, overall the end of program looked problematic in terms of synchronization – they were looking for each other a little bit more. Probably a tax for first competition.

Lifts are problematic also like in case of I&Z – rotational lift where Nikita doesn’t rotate well, crouching position where Nikita in which is very poor yet and his legs are trembling there a lot. Straight line lift looks very well (although I am not fan of this inelegant position, I think they should make a full copy of Meryl & Charlie’s lift, it looked more elegant with Charlie looking straight and not at some certain parts of Meryl’s body).

What I am very critical to – Nikita absolutely ignores the rhythm especially in the Step Sequences. But he is the dancer! And dancer should keep the rhythm! In this moment 8.18 points for Interpretation and TIMING Component looks like a bad joke or like another compliment to Zueva.

Another critics goes to Nikita poor body posture with head forward, thanks to it he is loosing elegant look, which is a pity. I hope Zueva will correct this in future.

And third critic but maybe more a suprise from me – where are edges? The couple had better edges in Circular Step Sequence in comparison with SD, but Diagonal Step Sequence was once again on the level of SD Step Sequences. The couple is able to create some deep or quite deep edges but more than 50% of edges are light and about 25% of edges are not done or under big question.

Last year I was watching both I&Z and S&Z and they all had deep edges, that was the reason why I pointed that both new couples will fit to each other in terms of technique. But while I&Z kept those deep edges and increase speed they had with previous partners, Vika & Nikita have a little bit less speed and their edges are visibly worse than they were with previuos partners. In the beginning I thought that it is caused by short period of skating together….but watching I&Z – they were able to keep those deep edge. Why S&K were not?

The program is good. It is not easy to judge it, when this is the first time when the couple competed, so they will sure show better presentation next time. Right know the program looks to be devided into more parts, it doesn’t look like one compact dance. Looking at choreography Zueva tried to create a sexual tension between the couple and there are some parts while they are both standing on one place and doing some sexy moves towards judges or towards each other, but this sexy moves almost disappear in moments when they start to skate.

I am curious how will the dance look at Russian Nationals and I am curious to see it.

I wonder why Zueva chose this music for them. Vika is elegant and smooth skater and her Blues style is very similar to last years Finnstep. Nikita is dynamic skater who is more smooth and high class looking one. The music which is playing looks to be iron looking, wild, a little bit out of control. In my opinion both skaters are to soft to skate on this music, at least yet.
 

MarieM

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
I disagree on most of what you say sisinka about the american, british and russian team sorry.

True I&Z have amazing skating skills. But both their programs are empty. There are no transitions. Speed yes, but it's easy when you do not do transitions right? Maybe they should now start working on that and their lifts. The rest is IMO outstanding at that point. But a little more transitions would be cool. And choreography may help in the FD too. Too generic.

S&K are a whole different matter IMO. He can't hold his edges, she skates on flats. Both have different technic and can't seem to adjust to each other. The only positive IMO are the lifts even if they're directly V&M and D&W. The music for both program is a disaster and choreography is typical Zueva's crap. Skating skills are not there to be shown and I sure hope at one point it will. (or not :biggrin:)

True the brits do not have skating skills to speak of. She has made some progress. But who cares? Both their programs stand out. Platov IS a genius. He has made jam packed programs for a not so good team that makes them stand out. And the first lift of the FD is TO DIE for. That's musicality, that's choreography. Everything none of the russian team do possess sorry.

As for the americans, they're typicall : boring me to death. Sure they're good technicians, but that's about it. I see no passion, no attack. Lifts are outstanding, but that's about it. I will surely die watching them win gold at worlds (they will mark my words). But at least, they'll deliver the levels. The russians can't win if they don't get the levels, and so far, they don't.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Zamboni Driver
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Country
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MarieM, I have got to disagree with you about Chock & Bates. Yes, the lifts are good, yes, they are interesting, and Evan isn't wobbling around in a one footed lift with his free leg wagging away, trying to retain his balance, like so many men seem to be doing this season.

But IMO, there is more to them! I am really enjoying C&B's step sequences! For once in a long time, a team has step sequences that aren't cookie-cutter, with lots of changes of hold, while showing the character of the music!
:bow: :clap: :cheer:
I would think.you would approve of that,too, even if there are other things about them that don't float your boat.
 
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BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
MarieM, I have got to disagree with you about Chock & Bates. Yes, the lifts are good, yes, they are interesting, and Evan isn't wobbling around in a one footed lift with his free leg wagging away, trying to retain his balance, like so many men seem to be doing this season.

Oh yes, I hate those lifts too. Kudos to C&B for doing everything right this season. Maxim Shabalin did similar lifts and held the tall Domnina safely - he did all that on a busted knee. Andrew Poje seems to have a particularly hard time holding his edges and balance. And of course Nikita, but that doesn't need to be mentioned again.
 

fairly4

Medalist
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
great job chock/bates--keep improving, keep it up. however for me your connection didn't come across. I saw your hard technical but didn't feel it across tv.
I hope that doesn't knock your score down. well deserved

ilynkh/zhiganshin. great improvement from previous week

comes/buckland good job.

hawayek/baker
Aldridge/eaton


cup of china

papadakis/cizeron. wow-you made me take notice of you. great job in free-score well deserved.
shibutanis good job. I just thought you was scored a bit low in the free-for me you still should have won, maybe the the skin of your teeth. but still should have won. you didn't do enough wrong to warrant 2nd in my opinion. sorry.

ilynkh/zhiganshin. great first try.
great job. our dance team in future are set. keep it up and improving
 

sisinka

Medalist
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
True I&Z have amazing skating skills. But both their programs are empty. There are no transitions. Speed yes, but it's easy when you do not do transitions right? Maybe they should now start working on that and their lifts. The rest is IMO outstanding at that point. But a little more transitions would be cool. And choreography may help in the FD too. Too generic.

I mean overall speed, not only in Transitions but also in Step Sequences (where the couple uses less toe steps and hoops in comparison with others) and also in Twizzles.

I fully agree with not difficult Transitions in FD. Also I can understand Averbukh, for sure he watches trends in today's Ice Dance and with knowledge that 98 percent of ice dancers uses very very easy Transitions with many steps connected more to pair then dance couples, he simply followed the trend. I not satisfied with it.

I think that many dance couples really can't do difficult Transitions because their Skating Skills are not so great – and most of them really avoids at least trying this, but in case of I&Z – they are fully capable of not having only difficult elements but also difficult Transitions.

I&Z and Transitions – they make some turn and get speed, they cover a lot of ice with every step, so it also helps to create a feeling of easy Transitions and empty places. From edges work - they did three turns and single Twizzle, one Bracket from both, Mohawks (beautiful by Lena), beautiful Double Three Turn by both in close hold, Lena doing Spread-eagle, if you want to take Ina Bauer into account also.

Chock & Bates and Transitions – they make some turn and don't get much speed. 90 percent of edges Transations (I don't take hoops and jumps and two footed skating worst noticing, this is not difficult in skating at all) are three turns and single Twizzles – alone or with Evan holding Madison's hand, I notice one Mohawk by Madison, one Mohawk by Evan and one Counter by Evan – all three difficult turns done with no edge or light edge and with very poor quality which wouldn't be counted in Step Sequence.

Shibs and Transitions – Double Twizzle staying on one place by Maia in the beginning of the dance, and then three turns, single Twizzles, Mohawks, one Rocker with no edges by Maia, one Chocktaw with no edge by Maia.

Papadakis & Cizeron and Transitions – probably the couple with the most two footed skating and staying on one place. Ina Bauer by Guillaume, three turns, one lovely Mohawk by Guillaume, some other Mohawks, nice Spread-eagle by Guillaume, not good Double Three Turn by Gabriella, single Twizzle by both. Many moments not in dance close holds, but in hugs. Overall there is a feeling that they skate close together in Transitions, but many of those moments are done when skating two footed straight or standing on one place.

Sinitsina & Katsalapov and Transitions – a Double Twizzle attempt in the beginning staying on one place by Nikita (should I count this like skating elements when he is not moving-skating doing this step?), three turns and single Twizzles, two footed one turn, Mohawks, Vika doing Spread-eagle.

Coomes & Buckland and Transitions – three turns, Mohawks, Ina Bauer by both, many of those three turns and Mohawks of poor quality.

Overall if you talk about easy Transitions – you must notice almost all dance couple, definitely those mentioned above.

If you want to talk about Transitions which are catching the audiences eye – I would choose Gabriella and Guillaume, they have plenty of movements and it is looking well, although it is not difficult.

If you want to talk about speed… I&Z are fast because they are doing one Three Turn and one Mohawk and are gaining so much speed with it and have the same ice coverage like other couples doing two Three Turns and one Mohawk and two cross-overs…and those couples are still slower than I&Z.

Skating Skills are defined like the ability of skater to increase speed…just try to find any skater with one three turn and compare it with Lena and Ruslan's one three turn…compare ice coverage and speed. Then take two cross-overs by Lena and Ruslan and compare it with any other couple doing two cross overs, you will find that I&Z are faster.

But the best possibility how to compare real Skating Skills is watching Step Sequences – all couples must do difficult turns there.

Speed is also connected with gliding, the couple with better gliding almost always IS faster. I&Z have the best gliding from today's top dancers.

But come back to the fact that I&Z really have easy Transitions for themselves. I think this is Averbukh's mistake, but I am not too angry on him, because…most of couples skating together for long keeps the same level of skating which may improve or get worse but there are not big difference during the season. Averbukh made a free program in May or June – in moment when the couple skated together for 2-3 months. I am sure that in this moment when the couple skated whole program and it looked OK to him.

But since that time everything improved, steps are done more easily, gaining more speed, skaters feel more comfortable in it, they still don't feel each other automatically, but it is much better than in June. Realise what is today's level of I&Z, but try to imagine how they were looking like after 2 months of working together – pushing each other, a lot of out of synchro moments, looking for each other hand etc.

For every skater the history of new program is the same…in the beginning all steps looks to be done in time, some of them are hardly executed in time, skater must concentrate on every move…but as time goes, the skater gets used to it, starts to feel comfortable and all steps are done at time or even sooner than it was originally planned and suddenly some empty places occurs in program.

Averbukh was at the rink during free skate. I am sure that he watched his work and I hope that the couple together with him will make some changes in Transitions to make it more interesting to watch.

As to I&Z’s SD – the choreography is great and they are dancing and dancing and dancing all time, no matter whether it is element or Transitions.

P.S. Elif, you asked for comparison of dance couples and I promised to do it after Grand Prix Final, but I made this Transitions comparison now because of MarieM – so a part of December’s work.
 
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sisinka

Medalist
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
MarieM, I have got to disagree with you about Chock & Bates. Yes, the lifts are good, yes, they are interesting, and Evan isn't wobbling around in a one footed lift with his free leg wagging away, trying to retain his balance, like so many men seem to be doing this season.

Yes, comparing him with other men, he is rock solid in those lifts, which is appreciated. Maybe he should give lesson to other male dancers to allow us to see more better looking lifts without fear of disaster.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Zamboni Driver
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
nice Moon by Guillaume,

Moon?

The only move that I know that is called this is not a skating move? Well except maybe single skaters doing A frame spins...
 

MarieM

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
MarieM, I have got to disagree with you about Chock & Bates. Yes, the lifts are good, yes, they are interesting, and Evan isn't wobbling around in a one footed lift with his free leg wagging away, trying to retain his balance, like so many men seem to be doing this season.

But IMO, there is more to them! I am really enjoying C&B's step sequences! For once in a long time, a team has step sequences that aren't cookie-cutter, with lots of changes of hold, while showing the character of the music!
:bow: :clap: :cheer:
I would think.you would approve of that,too, even if there are other things about them that don't float your boat.

It's just I don't feel an American in Paris from them. I don't know, the costumes don't fit, her face doesn't fit. Something is missing to make it from a good program to a WOW program.
The steps are typical Igor, not very original from this viewpoint but I do agree, very difficult and timed well with the music. I just hope they do challenge themselves a tad more.
 
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elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
MarieM, I have got to disagree with you about Chock & Bates. Yes, the lifts are good, yes, they are interesting, and Evan isn't wobbling around in a one footed lift with his free leg wagging away, trying to retain his balance, like so many men seem to be doing this season.
Yes, comparing him with other men, he is rock solid in those lifts, which is appreciated. Maybe he should give lesson to other male dancers to allow us to see more better looking lifts without fear of disaster.


Please correct me If I'm wrong but didn't Bates split from his first partner because he can't lift her? I had to agree lifts are never problem of Chock/Bates. But it is not because Evan using amazing technique or something like that. He just lifts less heavy partner.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Country
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Re Evan and Emily, he became unable to lift her after him came back with a weakened tendon following surgical repair that kept him off the ice for a year. Madison is no Penny Coomes. But Emily is a tall girl. After Evan split with her, the only partner she could get was Todd Gilles, who is a really big guy, if not as tall as Evan. Evan is very slightly built compared to Todd.

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00013718.htm

In her bio, Emily lists herself as 161 cm, Todd at 183 cm.

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00013718.htm

Evan lists himself at 187 cm, Madison at 157 cm. Madison is not hugely shorter than Emily.

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00054478.htm

Elena is 164 cm, Ruslan 177 cm.

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00009083.htm

Penny is 152 cm while Nick is 181 cm.

There is probably some data massaging going on here, but if we take these kids at their word:

Ruslan is a little small to be lifting Elena. Kudos to him for doing as well as he does.
.
 
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Astrid56

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Please correct me If I'm wrong but didn't Bates split from his first partner because he can't lift her? I had to agree lifts are never problem of Chock/Bates. But it is not because Evan using amazing technique or something like that. He just lifts less heavy partner.

Bates split with Samuelson because he got injured. She accidentally lacerated his ankle after an unfortunate dismount from a lift. Indeed, he suffered a serious, almost a career-ending injury (to his achilles tendon) that resulted in him ending the partnership. Anyway, he is fortunate to have partnered with Chock with whom he is now having a lot of success after just 3 years ....
 

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avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
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Feb 27, 2012
Re Evan and Emily, he became unable to lift her after him came back with a weakened tendon following surgical repair that kept him off the ice for a year. Madison is no Penny Coomes. But Emily is a tall girl. After Evan split with her, the only partner she could get was Todd Gilles, who is a really big guy.
http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00013718.htm

In her bio, Emily lists herself as 161 cm, Todd at 183 cm.

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00013718.htm

Evan lists himself at 187 cm, Madison at 157 cm.

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00054478.htm

Elena is 164 cm, Ruslan 177 cm.

I never have and never will buy the lifting theory as an explanation for the Samuelson/Bates split, injury or no injury.

Scott Moir and Charlie White are 15 cm taller than their respective partners, according to their ISU bios.

Bates split with Samuelson because he got injured. She accidentally lacerated his ankle after an unfortunate dismount from a lift. Indeed, he suffered a serious, almost a career-ending injury (to his achilles tendon) that resulted in him ending the partnership. ....

Don't get me started on this topic ... I don't claim to know the full story behind the split, but based on the little that is known to the public, your explanation is overly simplistic.
[Please don't get me wrong. I am casting no aspersions whatsoever on Samuelson. That is not what I mean at all.]
 
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Astrid56

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
I never have and never will buy the lifting theory as an explanation for the Samuelson/Bates split, injury or no injury. ....

Don't get me started on this topic ... I don't claim to know the full story behind the split, but based on what was known to the public, your explanation is overly simplistic.

It makes sense when you consider that psychological impact of this injury on Bates. He would associate pain with her and that is definitely devastating to the partnership. I know what it feels like having experienced similar traumas. It's not easy to disassociate mentally from something as traumatic as that. Remember, he was kept off his skates for almost a year. If there were incidents that happened in their practices closely resembling that accident, those could heighten his anxieties more ... and psychologically prevent him from working with her.
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
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Feb 27, 2012
It makes sense when you consider that psychological impact of this injury on Bates. He would associate pain with her and that is definitely devastating to the partnership. I know what it feels like having experienced similar traumas. It's not easy to disassociate mentally from something as traumatic as that. Remember, he was kept off his skates for almost a year. If there were incidents that happened in their practices closely resembling that accident, those could heighten his anxieties more ... and psychologically prevent him from working with her.

But what does not fit your theory -- IMO -- is the timing of the split in relationship to his recovery. YMMV.

Will leave my comments there. (I've already debated this topic too many times over the years. ;))
 
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