2015 Worlds Ladies Free Skate March 28

[Sam-Skwantch]

She hits 5 bullets, at least, so +1 as well looks low to me.

I've practically written a thesis on her jumps in last year's threads and why Julia easily satisfies many aspects in awarding GOE.

I think some people assume that GOE is awarded by comparing jumps from skater to skater when in fact CoP simply requires you to satisfy certain qualifications. They don't give a bullet to one skater for height and withhold it from other skaters who aren't as high. That's 6.0 thinking that still lingers around and while I'm starting to think 6.0 would be better (although results would probably be the same) because people quibble over PCS and edge calls as if these are the actually definitively quantifiable and lose sight of the programs as a whole and maybe even the importance the whole effort should carry.

I love big jumps too but still can see merit in smaller ones ...especially if they satisfy the most basic of qualifications like fully rotated and correct entry. Personally...I don't like the idea of events being decided almost solely by jumps....especially when spins are judged so leniently in comparison. I think Mathman secretly worked some voodoo magic to convert me to a 6.0 supporter.

 

[CutieP]

When discussing the scoring of specific events, it's much more helpful and insightful to cite specifics of what happened on the ice (such as Gracie's mistakes in her SP) rather than to say she lost to Elena because Gracie is not a competitor. There are no points earned for being a competitor. Gracie is a bit of a headcase, but saying that actually has nothing to do with the concrete scores and why Gracie lost to Elena.

:shocked:

 

[andromache]

:shocked: and then...

Do you really not understand how silly your post is?

I think if someone has the courage go out on competitive ice, then they are a competitor. Dealing with nerves is another issue.

I don't see how it's silly to suggest that, when debating results, we discuss what happened on the ice and how it was scored rather than talking in broad generalizations.

 

[CutieP]

I think if someone has the courage go out on competitive ice, then they are a competitor. Dealing with nerves is another issue.

I don't see how it's silly to suggest that, when debating results, we discuss what happened on the ice and how it was scored rather than talking in broad generalizations.

Fair enough, we clearly do have a different understanding of the definition of a competitor, so in the end I guess you're correct to say that my definition (at least to you) is "arbitrary".

I still think that it's about time to make that generalization. I mean, for years she's had way more talent than what she's been able to manifest on the ice.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think if someone has the courage go out on competitive ice, then they are a competitor. Dealing with nerves is another issue.

I don't see how it's silly to suggest that, when debating results, we discuss what happened on the ice and how it was scored rather than talking in broad generalizations.

I think Lil Nova showed the world that she is here to compete and no matter how sick or tired she may be, she is going to give it all she has. Sure it wasn't the cleanest but sometimes fighting and performing the best you can and saving every possible point is worth something too in the judges and especially the fans minds. I was as proud of Lena as I was for anyone else. In no way do I see a case for Gracie to place ahead of her. Especially given Gracie's generous PCS in the SP.

 

[andromache]

I think Lil Nova showed the world that she is here to compete and no matter how sick or tired she may be, she is going to give it all she has. Sure it wasn't the cleanest but sometimes fighting and performing the best you can and saving every possible point is worth something too in the judges and especially the fans minds. I was as proud of Lena as I was for anyone else. In no way do I see a case for Gracie to place ahead of her. Especially given Gracie's generous PCS in the SP.

Oh I totally agree with you! I wasn't debating the result, just the idea that Elena is a competitor and Gracie is not. I was impressed by Elena fighting in her FS, and I was equally impressed by Gracie's fight in skating mostly clean after her disastrous SP.

 

[CutieP]

Oh I totally agree with you! I wasn't debating the result, just the idea that Elena is a competitor and Gracie is not. I was impressed by Elena fighting in her FS, and I was equally impressed by Gracie's fight in skating mostly clean after her disastrous SP.

:thumbsup:

Well yeah, honestly, the only reason why I wrote that "original post" in the first place is because I was upset precisely of people suggesting that Lena never earned her medal. And I'm willing to admit that I'm being unnecessarily harsh on Gracie. So in the end, it's just ironic that we ended up having this fruitless debate.

There were quite the evil posters there before my original post.

edit: I'm off to bed!

 

[Alba]

Sure it wasn't the cleanest but sometimes fighting and performing the best you can and saving every possible point is worth something too in the judges and especially the fans minds. I was as proud of Lena as I was for anyone else.

Me too. An maybe I'm the only one here but I admired Anna P., especially during the SP, as well. There is something "heroic" when skaters fight for each element. I love that.

Oh I totally agree with you! I wasn't debating the result, just the idea that Elena is a competitor and Gracie is not. I was impressed by Elena fighting in her FS, and I was equally impressed by Gracie's fight in skating mostly clean after her disastrous SP.

I'm a Gracie Gold fan. I think she is the best USA lady, IMO, and I've been saying this before. I'm very happy that she had a great LP. However, it's not the same to fight and do well on the LP when you had a bad SP. The pressure is no way the same as someone who has to establish and defend a position. I think we can agree on that. I don't know if Gold is a headcase (I don't like the word tbh), all I know is that she can be great. But It's not easy to deal with nerves. I think all skaters are nervous. The difference, sometimes, is how you deal with them.

 

[Art&Sport]

Here is a two-part post:

For the most part the majority of posters have kept this a civil and thoughtful discussion and I appreciate that. Of course we all have our favorites, likes and dislikes, and varying perspectives on the sport.

Indeed, it was wonderful to see that the U.S. ladies came back very strong in the fp, after very poor outings in the sp for Gracie and Ashley. Apparently, they did receive a lot of support from many of their fans, as Ashley specifically gave a shout out to her supporters while in the kiss 'n cry. U.S. ladies were definitely in danger of losing a third spot, so it is great redemption that they showed grit and determination under some serious pressure. Despite Ashley saying that she had nothing to lose, indeed she was faced with dropping further, staying in the same position or moving up by skating as cleanly as possible and with grit, which she certainly showed. It is important that all three U.S. ladies shook off the implications and the heavy burdens. Good that they reframed the situation and went out there with the mindset of simply showing what they are made of, and what they are capable of achieving.

In answer to some posters' comments/ queries on my previous posts: Thanks for the thoughtful responses to my comments, especially from sowcow, sandpiper, Parsifal, andromache et al. Regarding Polina's scoring, sowcow, I think it has to do with the fact that Polina is the 3rd place U.S. skater with less experience than Gracie and Ashley, and she does have things to work on still in regard to technique, speed and overall fine-tuning. In the same vein, if Mao and Suzuki were competing at this Worlds, Satoko would not be rated as highly if Mao and Suzuki skated their best. Satoko has some prescient lovely qualities that have not yet fully blossomed, but she is a diamond on the ice. Her intensity, precociousness and elegance makes up for the fact she still needs to work on presenting and opening up more to the audience. I look forward to seeing Satoko develop further, as I do Polina as well.

When I mentioned that U.S. skaters should be more encouraged and supported unconditionally, I am talking about the U.S. fans and media showing more support for U.S. skaters rather than the constant negative criticism that is mainly bandied about. I don't mean that constructive criticism is not needed. Definitely everyone should feel free to offer constructive criticism to all skaters, which should include praise for their hard work and accomplishments, as well as keeping it real regarding areas they can improve upon. However, a lot of the time on forums and in the press, there is a lot of negative, nasty, ill-informed and biased critiques of skaters in general, and in the U.S. of our skaters in particular, that tend to be exactly like, or similar to the following refrains:

“Why are U.S. men not performing quads?” “They are not macho enough unless they perform quads.” “How dare Jason Brown win without performing quads?” “How dare Jason and his coach take their time training the quad? They need him to just go for it.” “How dare Jason think he could just go for the quad at 4CC and do well when his quad wasn't ready?” “Why did Jason practice so many quads in warm-up at 4CC when his quad wasn't really ready?” (Oh, duh, obviously Jason was damned if he didn't, and damned when he did!) “Why are our top ladies not performing 3/3s consistently?” “Ashley Wagner is too old, and she's not Michelle Kwan.” “What did Adam Rippon possibly think he could accomplish coming back instead of retiring?” “Adam deserves to be lightly regarded by the judges.” “How dare Gracie Gold think she's good enough because of all the hype surrounding her name and her looks?” “How dare Gracie Gold go out there and have nerves?” “How dare Gracie Gold skate to that music?” “How dare Gracie pretend to be injured and use that as an excuse to skip GPF?” (Believe it or not there was an entire thread on a skating forum dedicated to this ridiculous slam.) “Gracie doesn't know how to compete.” “Neither Gracie nor Ashley compete well unless they are coming from behind.” (No matter who thinks this faulty analysis is true based on recall of specific events, I don't believe it is true at all). “Frank has dampened Gracie's high-flying jumps, and she's being packaged too much like a princess.” “How dare she, and how dare Frank?” “How dare Ashley assert herself and refer to her younger competitors as sonograms, even though it was in lighthearted jest of everyone calling Ashley too old?” “How dare Polina speak with confidence and think she deserves to be on the podium?” etc. etc.

The above simplistic, niggling and OTT criticisms serve no positive purpose and should cease. Of course some fans will always continue to be snarky, but I think the media has an obligation to educate themselves better about the sport and learn how to cover it with more thoughtful journalism, and more positive approaches to writing about the complications that skaters in the U.S. are currently faced with, rather than the continual status quo, clueless, hyped, and ill-informed, simplistic and overly negative or overly saccharine, one-dimensional articles that are usually published.

In particular, PLEASE STOP with the predictable, ubiquitous questioning of the U.S. ladies about their Russian counterparts. There was more than enough of that this season, to the point where it seemed to psyche-out Gracie and Ashley too, although to a lesser degree. Good for the Russian ladies, but they are NOT the best thing since sliced bread. They have stuff they need to work on too. Why all of a sudden are the Russian ladies the be all and end all!? A lot of the reason has to do with fs politics and perceptions and due to the high profile the Russians gained into the lead-up to and during the Sochi Olympics. Just because I make these observations does not mean I hate the Russians. I am simply pointing out the OTT hype surrounding the so-called Russian baby ballerinas. Look at it like it actually is, please. The Russians were stronger in pairs and ice dance traditionally and now having paid more attention to building and improving their singles programs, they now have plentiful talent particularly among their ladies. Definitely success fluctuates, varies and is cyclic for a variety of reasons for skaters in every country and every discipline.

Politics always plays a role in judging and in popular perception within the skating community. Sure skaters' talent and actual on-ice performances matter too, but oftentimes their on-ice performances are impacted by off-ice pressures and negative critiques. IMHO, the current Russian ladies field is plentiful, but it is not a monolith of talent. Individually, the talent varies for each individual skater. In general, yes many of the Russian ladies tend to have technical consistency, desire and determination, along with a certain kind of grace. But, they are not all ballerinas with great line and musicality. Many of them are over-rated on PCS simply because they can jump and have the Russian lineage. I absolutely feel that Liza Tukt deserves her success. Her jumping has been spot-on, and mastering her beautiful 3-axel sealed the deal for her being the favorite at Worlds since the sport is so heavily weighted toward technical risk-taking these days. Artistry is looked upon as an afterthought (good if you are Russian and have some semblance of artistry, and even if you don't, landing the jumps is mainly what matters most). In any case, most judges do not know how to evaluate performance skills. Under IJS, the PCS are clearly manipulated based on matters having little to do with skaters' actual performance abilities.

 

[Art&Sport]

Cool that Liza has incorporated the 3-axel and resurrected her career so spectacularly. She has never been a favorite for me, but she deserves respect for her accomplishments this season. Similar to Miki Ando, Tukt is a champion noted more for her technical skills. IMO, Tukt is over-rated artistically, and given a lot of slack in this regard, which has not generally been the case for Ashley and Gracie (in particular re fans' critiques). I do think that Tukt has a delightful personality and it was sweet to see her happy face. As I said, I like Radionova, who has a supernova quality, but she needs to work on her form and on further developing as a skater rather than rushing, rushing and muscling through her programs. Okay, Radionova was sick and still got through her program despite it not being her best effort, and yes her tech scores were downgraded, but her PCS have consistently been too high. Gracie has been coming back from injury this season, but instead of being encouraged, she has been made fun of by a lot of fans for her slip-ups and struggles, and the fact she did actually suffer an injury.

I do not want to see or hear Phil Hersh asking Gracie or Ashley or Polina about when they are going to land a 3-axel! That is NOT what U.S. ladies skaters need to be focused on at the moment. I personally feel that a huge load of pressure is consistently placed on U.S. skaters without enough understanding of how difficult this sport is and what is required of them to even make it to the top and be able to carve out a spot on the World team. There is little to no widespread understanding or appreciation of the sport in the U.S., and very limited sponsorship opportunities. Many talented skaters often have to call it quits due to the high costs of training and the extremely difficult competitive environment in the U.S. where skaters can spend years working hard and never have the opportunity to gain recognition and the chance to improve. Nor, above all do many ever reach a plateau where they can even begin to gain competitive momentum and high profile positive respect from international judges. Obviously, the IJS scoring system and the way the sport is archaically structured has a lot to do with the dearth of opportunities that many skaters face across the board. U.S. skaters have historically been hampered by a federation that has a more laissez-faire view of the role that politics plays in the sport.

When I refer to politics, I am not talking about conspiracies. Anyone jumping to the conclusion that conspiracies are currently involved in the scoring is taking an exaggerated view. The fact is that politics are endemic and traditional in the sport of figure skating, and there is no way around it when the sport is structured in such a political, country-based fashion that has not drastically changed since the formation of the ISU in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Another ongoing problem, IMHO, is the fact that speed skating and figure skating continue to be organized under the auspices of one organization. And that definitely needs to change, but I don't see it happening any time soon, if ever.

In regard to Satoko Miyahara, I extend my congratulations. She is a very impressive talent, and I have felt that way since I first saw her skate. Good for her that she came back from the pressure of trying and failing to win at 4CC and was able to have such a good showing at Worlds. Satoko has the potential to be absolutely spectacular, and I can see why she is well-liked by the judges and many fans. I am also a fan, and I did not intend to belittle her accomplishments. My constructive critiques still stand that she needs to improve spring on her jumps in order to get more height. Her fast rotations are a bonus, and likely give the impression that she is getting around all the way on her rotations. I am actually not a proponent of examining skaters with a fine-tooth comb on URs, unless the URs are very obvious. There are just too many issues with the unevenness of the scoring system in this sport.

Again thoughtful debate and analysis are good, and I am open to re-examining my takes and perceptions whenever I feel that I have strayed too much into emotion-based reactions. Still, the thrust of my observations stand because I am looking at the sport as a whole, and I see so much that is out of whack. I think all of the skaters deserve better support, and a better-run, up-to-date ISU that is completely separate from speed-skating.

 

[ice coverage]

Never posted here before.
Just think I can give you some idea about Satoko from all Japanese reports this week. ...

For me, I respect any kind of comment but not negative ones with nasty words. Comment before looking for more info and reading the ISU rule more carefully please or it just makes your comments annoying. I think most parts of figure skating are based on personable favor like expression, choreography, height on jumps or even height on skaters themselves but not matching your taste doesn't mean it's against the rule skaters are working hard to fill in. I see quite a few comments express the concepts like "Satoko is short. she's like a novice on the ice but why she get big score?" or "Satoko has no height on jumps so she can't win!" "She got big score b/c she's Japanese!" etc. I hope this post is seen as a balance. Thank you.

Thank you, fg0993. I hope you don't mind that I copied your terrific post into the Satoko Miyahara fan thread:

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...oko-Miyahara&p=1137282&viewfull=1#post1137282​

Wanted it to be accessible there too for posterity. Congratulations to Satoko :yay:.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I dunno. Maybe if you say it enough times, people start to believe it. In this current crop, I don't think she's THE artist, but I think she's one of the best ones.

I think Ashley can be artistic, but this Moulin rouge program does not have the interesting choreography to show this. Its a good program in it showcases her personality and maturity, but not artistry. I'm excited to see what she comes up with next year. It just feels like every year the american ladies are so close toe podium, but never good enough, because they never skate their best. I just wish one day finally, someone would live up to the hype.

 

[CarneAsada]

What an odd competition. Never in my life would I imagine Radionova losing to Miyahara. But in any case, Tuktamysheva won, good for her. I hope she flourishes like Miki Ando did after both of her Worlds wins.

 

[chuckm]

I'm a Gracie Gold fan. I think she is the best USA lady, IMO, and I've been saying this before. I'm very happy that she had a great LP. However, it's not the same to fight and do well on the LP when you had a bad SP. The pressure is no way the same as someone who has to establish and defend a position.

The US ladies were dealing with a different pressure, just as intense as defending a medal: keeping those 3 places for the 2016 Worlds which is going to be held in BOSTON, USA. At the start of the freeskate, the 3 US ladies were in 7th (Edmunds), 8th (Gold) and 11th (Wagner), so getting to that magic 13 was a tough uphill climb. Watching the event at home, I didn't see how they were going to do it and I couldn't imagine how they could handle that pressure. I was particularly worried for Gracie, but when she landed that huge 3z-3t, she showed she wasn't going to be the one to let the US fans down.

 

[Krislite]

The US ladies were dealing with a different pressure, just as intense as defending a medal: keeping those 3 places for the 2016 Worlds which is going to be held in BOSTON, USA. At the start of the freeskate, the 3 US ladies were in 7th (Edmunds), 8th (Gold) and 11th (Wagner), so getting to that magic 13 was a tough uphill climb. Watching the event at home, I didn't see how they were going to do it and I couldn't imagine how they could handle that pressure. I was particularly worried for Gracie, but when she landed that huge 3z-3t, she showed she wasn't going to be the one to let the US fans down.

Boston, eh? This is definitely their chance to break the 10-year curse. If Gracie or Ashley can't do it next year in Boston, well...

 

[Tonichelle]

I think Ashley can be artistic, but this Moulin rouge program does not have the interesting choreography to show this. Its a good program in it showcases her personality and maturity, but not artistry. I'm excited to see what she comes up with next year. It just feels like every year the american ladies are so close toe podium, but never good enough, because they never skate their best. I just wish one day finally, someone would live up to the hype.

I couldn't agree more with this!

 

[Alba]

The US ladies were dealing with a different pressure, just as intense as defending a medal: keeping those 3 places for the 2016 Worlds which is going to be held in BOSTON, USA.

I wasn't suggesting they didn't have any pressure. Even if they didn't have the 3 spots pressure they still have pressure because skaters at their levels need to prove that they are much better than that. There is always pressure. I was just saying that when you come from behind you sort of go for it rather than "play it safe", because you need it. You have no other options.

 

[satine]

I agree that wasn't "poor". Maybe for the OP was, idk.
Anyway, I was just clarifying that the OP wasn't saying that Yulia should've been there, or that she could've/would've done better. That's all.

I get what you're saying. I may have gone off on a tangent while trying to defend Elena a little bit. Guess I reacted to the word "poor" a little too strongly?

 

[karne]

I see quite a few comments express the concepts like "Satoko is short. she's like a novice on the ice but why she get big score?" or "Satoko has no height on jumps so she can't win!" "She got big score b/c she's Japanese!" etc. I hope this post is seen as a balance. Thank you.

With all due respect, I think you have misunderstood the issue (for me, anyway). I am sure Satoko is a very nice girl. But for me, her jumps are unacceptable as a silver medallist. It is not the height that bothers me - though I infinitely prefer big jumpers like Liza and Gracie - but rather, the horrific pre-rotation. Satoko often turns nearly a full revolution on her toe pick, rather than in the air. She should be regularly called < or << on her jumps just because of this. It is not a matter of preference: it is plain and simple really bad technique.

That, and that alone, is my issue with her podium placement.

 

[karlowens2]

Gracie has been getting a tough lesson. In Oly she followed Sotnikova. At Nationals she followed Ashley. And at worlds she followed Tut. All had huge ovations. How to stay focused among all the tumult - good preparation for when it's her time. Glad the LP worked out. But, easier with nowhere to go but up. Her coach probably told her to forget the 13 point pressure. Doesn't help you skate.

She's going to have to up the difficulty. They say she's a natural jumper. Why not a 3A? At least two strong 3-3s. Hope they can find music she actually cares about. She never seems carried by the music. She's not unmusical - maybe she doesn't kinow her tastes yet. Hope she is financially set enough that she can do a few shows, get rest and start work early on her world champion program!