2024 Worlds: Ice Dance thoughts and comments

[rain]

For me, the fan-cams are more revealing:

Piper Gilles & Paul Poirier FD World Figure Skating Championships

Piper Gilles & Paul Poirier FD World Figure Skating Championships #figureskating #khuudermatology #dukekhuumdfaad #boardcertifieddermatologist

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Chock and Bates "Time" by Pink Floyd " 2024 Worlds 2024 #worldfigure #figureskating #worldsmtl24

"Time" "Breathe" & "Eclipse" by Pink Floyd chores. by Marie-France DubreuilISU World’s Montreal IceDance Bell Center Free March 23 2024#worldfigure #figures...

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Guignard & Fabbri "Theory of Everything" ISU Worlds FD #worldfigure #figureskating #worldsmtl24

ISU World’s Montreal from the 200 Level IceDance Bell Center Free Dance Saturday March 23 2024 Taken by Kate L #worldfigure #figureskating #usfigureskatingTh...

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Unfortunately I can't link same fancam for all three, as the one I linked for GF and CB only had 480p vid of P^2, so it's not a fair comparison. But for me, it's better than ISU feed cameras.

A different fan cam for Piper and Paul, but I was fascinated that I thought they looked so much faster than both other teams, but especially Chock/Bates, whose dance was so slow at times I wanted to get out and push. Piper and Paul flowed effortlessly from one element to another (by far the best twizzles and one foot step of the three in terms of ice coverage and speed), whereas Chock/Bates seemed to get almost kinda stuck after some of the elements and have to start from zero. It was a series of tricks, not a whole (and I'm trying to evaluate this without any bias against their music, which I hate. So utterly monotonous and blah. If anything, they deserved pity points for having to listen to this every day in practice for months).

Totally reinforced my impression that Piper and Paul deserved to win this, and by a lot more than they did. And that Chock/Bates being given the highest marks for skating skills is an utter crock.

Seeing it live and on fan cams you can also get a much better picture of the overall patterns on the ice.

 

[4everchan]

A different fan cam for Piper and Paul, but I was fascinated that I thought they looked so much faster than both other teams, but especially Chock/Bates, whose dance was so slow at times I wanted to get out and push.

Piper and Paul were definitely faster than Chock and Bates in the FD. On top of that, not only Chock and Bates were slow most of the times, but also, they did stay in the center of the ice, posing, quite a lot. Sure, they were doing some interesting things but yeah.. The French CBC commentator was getting antsy on air and said "we would like to see them dance more". In the RD, it was way less problematic for them. They moved better. The Italians were the faster team from the top three in the RD. Lilah and Lewis are not that fast either.

The fastest teams overall, to the naked eye (and mine on top of that LOL) would be LaLa and the Mrazek.

Piper and Paul flowed effortlessly from one element to another (by far the best twizzles and one foot step of the three in terms of ice coverage and speed),

I loved Piper and Paul's opening One foot ... it was amazing.. It's not only the speed and the ice coverage but it was also that the steps chosen seemed to have a purpose... not just like a cookie cutter let's get these over and done with. Kudos to the Italians for saving that element at the end. LaLa's were FANTASTIC !

whereas Chock/Bates seemed to get almost kinda stuck after some of the elements and have to start from zero.

YUP

It was a series of tricks, not a whole (and I'm trying to evaluate this without any bias against their music, which I hate.

I didn't mind the music. The music I didn't like apart from the obvious Rocky was the Lithuanians and the music cuts from the Italians...

So utterly monotonous and blah. If anything, they deserved pity points for having to listen to this every day in practice for months).

HAHA!

Totally reinforced my impression that Piper and Paul deserved to win this, and by a lot more than they did. And that Chock/Bates being given the highest marks for skating skills is an utter crock.

Without looking much at protocols and without being a specialist, I thought that the Italians should have won the RD by a small margin over C/B who were a bit more projecting there. Piper and Paul would have been a very close third. In the end, it would have been a maximum of about 2 points from 1st to 3rd. I would have put LaLa in 4th and Lopareva Brissaud in 5th. I have always liked Allison and Saulius... but these two programs were snooze fests... And well, it's clear Lilah and Lewis do nothing for me. Their free legs are not matching at all and I just cannot unsee it.

Then, in the FD... to me Piper and Paul should have won by a large margin. I am not sure whom I would have put in second and third really. If I only go with beautiful program, flow, speed, emotional performance I think that LaLa did extremely well... I am tempted to give second to CB and reward their choreographic research and the power of some of their acrobatic moves... though I was not very thrilled with their steps at all and the lack of flow. The Italians had a good performance (I don't even care about the dress thing... it was just at the end) but it was uneven... Sometimes. I just was wondering what they were trying to do.

What is the most impressive in the way Piper and Paul's FD is constructed is that elements are interwoven harmoniously... It is mesmerizing... they deserved way more points for Choreography. Seriously. Carol Lane does extremely wonderful work and underrated work in that sense. She is not always able to do this for all her teams, and she has had misses even with Piper and Paul (Olympic season) but for having seen Starry night and Wuthering Heights live... WOW ! She certainly can create masterpieces, programs that will be watched and rewatched forever. I don't think I will rewatch many of the other dances except LaLa's and perhaps Lim and Quan's which finally clicked for me (saw it earlier this season and couldn't care less about it...

Also, I'd give the biggest improvement award to CPOM. I saw them at CQÉ.. and it was a big MEH. This was much much better. I think Cristina is improving fast... I think Pono needs better posture though.

Seeing it live and on fan cams you can also get a much better picture of the overall patterns on the ice.

Yes.. and that's where it should hurt Chock and Bates the most. There is very little ice coverage in their FD.

 

[Mathman]

What I missed from Gilles and Poirier this time around was the quirky originality that we have come to expect from them. Their most recent offerings seem to be converging on the more conventional.

Not to worry, though. Fear and Gibson took up the quirkiness slack.

 

[gsk8]

Lajoie and Lagha did stand out for me this year! I really enjoyed both performances!

 

[4everchan]

What I missed from Gilles and Poirier this time around was the quirky originality that we have come to expect from them. Their most recent offerings seem to be converging on the more conventional.

Their RD was quite quirky. The FD is very dramatic and at times almost too intense... Piper gets into her character so much that it's almost unsettling. Maybe not quirky but not conventional.

Not to worry, though. Fear and Gibson took up the quirkiness slack.

I'd call that campy...

 

[kolyadafan2002]

What would be your final conclusions.?

At risk of upsetting many different fanbases, after watching the RDs and FD for as many fancams as I could find, prioritising the value of skating skills (which for me is what ID is about), taking into account how they skated on the day:

1) Piper Paul
2) La/La
3) Guignard/Fabbri (FD wasn't totally sharp, and costume/stali mishap for me puts them behind La/La here even though I'm a GF fan)
4) Lopereva/Brussaud

Slightly controversial, but my honest take. Chock/Bates for me didn't have ice coverage, speed or deep edges - and at the end of the day they have wonderful movements, which are much easier to do slower. But also, they didn't perform their best here: aside from the StaLi not working out, their third lift looked very shaky watching Evans feet. I actually thought Fear/Gibson were faster and had more ice coverage than Chock/Bates in the FD, even if I don't think they have the best general SS.
My take is that most people look at a performance, then rank that overall performance to make their view- a little like 6.0 to decide who they think deserved winners are. At the end of the day, all aspects of the programs should be considered, and for me under this P² win for me.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Talking about a Components, what made a difference in judges eyes I think are transitions and creativity in elements, which as a result, pushed C/B Skating skills and Composition score. At the end of the day I think all 3 medalists were over scored in components here My FD scores would be 9.25/9.25/9.25 for G/F and 9.50/9.50/9.25 for C/B and G/P (and then 9.00/9.25/8.75 for F/G, and 8.75/9.00/9.00 for L/L).

 

[Mathman]

I'd call that campy...

Ice Dancing? Campy?

 

[4everchan]

Ice Dancing? Campy?

oh please... a bit of respect for these wonderful athletes. Not all programs are tacky. Not all skaters like the cheese.

 

[4everchan]

At risk of upsetting many different fanbases, after watching the RDs and FD for as many fancams as I could find, prioritising the value of skating skills (which for me is what ID is about), taking into account how they skated on the day:

1) Piper Paul
2) La/La
3) Guignard/Fabbri (FD wasn't totally sharp, and costume/stali mishap for me puts them behind La/La here even though I'm a GF fan)
4) Lopereva/Brussaud

Slightly controversial, but my honest take. Chock/Bates for me didn't have ice coverage, speed or deep edges - and at the end of the day they have wonderful movements, which are much easier to do slower. But also, they didn't perform their best here: aside from the StaLi not working out, their third lift looked very shaky watching Evans feet. I actually thought Fear/Gibson were faster and had more ice coverage than Chock/Bates in the FD, even if I don't think they have the best general SS.
My take is that most people look at a performance, then rank that overall performance to make their view- a little like 6.0 to decide who they think deserved winners are. At the end of the day, all aspects of the programs should be considered, and for me under this P² win for me.

As someone who was at the rink, this sounds pretty accurate. I know I adore LaLa so I often hesitate to make such statements... after all, I am biased but truly both their performances were epic.

 

[icewhite]

Both of La/La's programs just left me cold, especially the RD, but the FD was also nothing I would really remember. I am honestly pretty surprised how many people are excited by these programs.

 

[TallyT]

The FD is very dramatic and at times almost too intense... Piper gets into her character so much that it's almost unsettling.

Maybe that's my problem with it (I am alone, I know, I was when I did the book). It was waaaayyyy too melodramatic even for Bronte, the on ice equivalent of purple prose. And the character she got into was... well, definitely no one in the book. Neither of them were.

 

[4everchan]

Maybe that's my problem with it (I am alone, I know, I was when I did the book). It was waaaayyyy too melodramatic even for Bronte, the on ice equivalent of purple prose. And the character she got into was... well, definitely no one in the book. Neither of them were.

Never read the book... Will never read it. Drama on ice when done by Piper is awesome...

 

[TallyT]

Never read the book... Will never read it. Drama on ice when done by Piper is awesome...

And therein lies the difference, I guess.

Bad adaptations of any classic (and oh god, the number of bad adaptations classics have been subjected to!!!) mainly hurt the people who know the canon, not those who look without knowing the source. Catherine in the book... was something extraordinary (and a complete, complex bitch, but that just made her even better).

But we are moving off-topic I think. Very few of the audience will have read the original. It's simply, when any work is adapted, for film for music, for skating... it's hard to get it right.

 

[4everchan]

And therein lies the difference, I guess.

Bad adaptations of any classic (and oh god, the number of bad adaptations classics have been subjected to!!!) mainly hurt the people who know the canon, not those who look without knowing the source. Catherine in the book... was something extraordinary (and a complete, complex bitch, but that just made her even better).

But we are moving off-topic I think. Very few of the audience will have read the original. It's simply, when any work is adapted, for film for music, for skating... it's hard to get it right.

Well
. Figure skaters are not supposed to replicate exactly the stories and characters. because well.. holy Batman!

 

[TallyT]

Well
. Figure skaters are not supposed to replicate exactly the stories and characters. because well.. holy Batman!

(I'm being polite and tactful, you know.)

 

[4everchan]

(I'm being polite and tactful, you know.)

Moi aussi ... My holy Batman comment is referring to. Skaters who should be saving Gotham and do not

 

[Mathman]

Well
Figure skaters are not supposed to replicate exactly the stories and characters.!

And a good thing for Pipier and Paul! Wuthering Heights is about monstrous cruelty and cycles of abuse. (That didn't come across in the skating, thank goodness.)

But the use of language and diologue in the novel is genius. Everyone goes around shouting in poetic declamation.

 

[Magill]

And therein lies the difference, I guess.

Bad adaptations of any classic (and oh god, the number of bad adaptations classics have been subjected to!!!) mainly hurt the people who know the canon, not those who look without knowing the source. Catherine in the book... was something extraordinary (and a complete, complex bitch, but that just made her even better).

But we are moving off-topic I think. Very few of the audience will have read the original. It's simply, when any work is adapted, for film for music, for skating... it's hard to get it right.

I liked the program as such, I did not like the overdramatic facial expressions which I felt overdone and unnecessary. IDK, maybe it is about cultures or personal preferences but I do not believe Wuthering Heights is this kind of an "open mouth" drama, it is much more intimate, intense and sophisticated, and yes, cruel, than this. Actually, Piper's expressions reminded me much more of Kate Bush's video clip to her "Wuthering Heights" smashing hit song of the 80s., and I suspect it might have been her inspiration, to certain extent. It was pretty amazing and exceptional for its time but it was the original Kate Bush (and whoever scripted and choreographed it for her) take. Not Catherine from the book. But I confess, I did read the book.
If they skated this way to Kate Bush's song, I would probably have felt it was very much in place and keeping to her style. But it was Sakamoto's music, very different.
Here's Kate Bush, whoever might be interested to see and compare

Kate Bush - Wuthering Heights - Official Music Video - Version 1

Official music video for the single "Wuthering Heights" -- Version 1 by Kate Bush. Wuthering Heights was released as Kate's debut single in January 1978. It ...

www.youtube.com

 

[rain]

Piper and Paul were definitely faster than Chock and Bates in the FD. On top of that, not only Chock and Bates were slow most of the times, but also, they did stay in the center of the ice, posing, quite a lot. Sure, they were doing some interesting things but yeah.. The French CBC commentator was getting antsy on air and said "we would like to see them dance more".

You could see their lack of ice coverage clearly with the fan cam. I find this program looked better on television, as some of the tricks are cool, and you don't see as much the lack of flow in between them. I kept wanting to see them just move across the ice, but there wasn't any point in the program where this happened.

The fastest teams overall, to the naked eye (and mine on top of that LOL) would be LaLa and the Mrazek.

Speed has always been one of LaLa's calling cards, even as juniors.

I loved Piper and Paul's opening One foot ... it was amazing.. It's not only the speed and the ice coverage but it was also that the steps chosen seemed to have a purpose... not just like a cookie cutter let's get these over and done with. Kudos to the Italians for saving that element at the end. LaLa's were FANTASTIC !

Absolutely, LaLa's one foot step was very impressive. And Piper and Paul's was divine. Sooo much speed.

I didn't mind the music. The music I didn't like apart from the obvious Rocky was the Lithuanians and the music cuts from the Italians...

Don't mind the music of Rocky, hated the music of the Lithuanians (in both programs), and felt the music for the Italians was so generic as to be almost unnoticeable — so it was OK, I guess? Not objectionable?

Without looking much at protocols and without being a specialist, I thought that the Italians should have won the RD by a small margin over C/B who were a bit more projecting there. Piper and Paul would have been a very close third. In the end, it would have been a maximum of about 2 points from 1st to 3rd. I would have put LaLa in 4th and Lopareva Brissaud in 5th. I have always liked Allison and Saulius... but these two programs were snooze fests... And well, it's clear Lilah and Lewis do nothing for me. Their free legs are not matching at all and I just cannot unsee it.

I would have had Piper and Paul in first, because I just think their dance is the best and they skated it well, but I would not have been upset if all three teams had been about even after the RD. It was the handing of the gold medal to Chock and Bates in the RD that was so totally out of line. Not to mention that if Chock and Bates were 3+ points better than Piper and Paul in the RD, then Piper and Paul were at least that much better than Chock/Bates in the FD and should have been able to make up the difference and then some.

Then, in the FD... to me Piper and Paul should have won by a large margin.

Yup, ditto.

I am not sure whom I would have put in second and third really. If I only go with beautiful program, flow, speed, emotional performance I think that LaLa did extremely well... I am tempted to give second to CB and reward their choreographic research and the power of some of their acrobatic moves... though I was not very thrilled with their steps at all and the lack of flow. The Italians had a good performance (I don't even care about the dress thing... it was just at the end) but it was uneven... Sometimes. I just was wondering what they were trying to do.

I would have had LaLa second in the FD. Then a toss up between Chock/Bates and the Italians.

What is the most impressive in the way Piper and Paul's FD is constructed is that elements are interwoven harmoniously... It is mesmerizing... they deserved way more points for Choreography. Seriously. Carol Lane does extremely wonderful work and underrated work in that sense. She is not always able to do this for all her teams, and she has had misses even with Piper and Paul (Olympic season) but for having seen Starry night and Wuthering Heights live... WOW ! She certainly can create masterpieces, programs that will be watched and rewatched forever. I don't think I will rewatch many of the other dances except LaLa's and perhaps Lim and Quan's which finally clicked for me (saw it earlier this season and couldn't care less about it...

Carol Lane is a choreographic genius. I've said before on this forum that she doesn't get nearly enough credit for it. You're right that there are misses, of course. I tried my hardest to like Piper and Paul's programs in the Olympic season but they were forgettable and generic, with horrible costuming in the RD that could not be taken seriously. Unfortunately, it was their worst work, maybe ever.

Carol has done really nice work with Carolane Soucisse and Shane Firus and really given them a new lease on life, and her work for Bashynska and Beaumont is also top notch. I often really question their choices for Lanaghan/Razgulijevs (which is so weird, since you'd think they'd be a priority).

Also, I'd give the biggest improvement award to CPOM. I saw them at CQÉ.. and it was a big MEH. This was much much better. I think Cristina is improving fast... I think Pono needs better posture though.

I came to love their programs this season and I was really rooting for them. So happy for them that they placed so well.