American Idol May 11/12

[Kara Bear]

One question: On Canadian Idol, does the same thing happen?

It sure does. Gary Beals! He finished second. But this was a different case and I'm going to be blunt. He had every old grandma voting for him. But I don't believe he was talented enough to be in the top five. So today, Ryan, the winner, Audery, fourth place and Billy, third place have albums out. Gary, well he did a lame commerical for our telephone provider and oh yah, I did notice that he performed at our local Baptist church. Way to go Gary!

 

[JonnyCoop]

I wonder what would happen, voting wise, if the contestants spent the entire season singing behind drapes and they just showed karaoke videos to look at, with the audience only getting a look at them after they've been named the winner. Wouldn't make for very exciting television, granted, but at least then voting would be based more on vocal ability than other factors.

And I'm not bashing Jasmine, either. As a matter of fact, up until the last show, for about 4 or 5 weeks I always said I felt she was getting better and better; Tho I felt she was the least talented of the Final 4, I thought she would have at least held her own against the other 3, but it just didn't happen. And I actually feel, as I said in my first post, that it was more to do with REALLY REALLY LOUSY song choices. As Randy said to somebody early on this season, "Pick a better song and sing it better."

 

[Lotta]

Yeah I do know bout the responsibilities about the basic freedoms RG. What I'm mean is, it's like Paula and Randy are saying to me "YOU VOTE FOR THE BEST SINGER(S) OR ELSE I SHOOT YOU IN THE HEAD!!!!" when they tell America that we're deaf, we're crazy, blah blah blah. To me it seems like that. I know it's crazy but then again I myself am...

If Jazzy goes next week... I'll be sad. I'll probably vote for Diana cuz she was my fifth favorite behind Jazzy, Camille, John, and Michael Keown.

 

[Tonichelle]

IIRC The reason Tamyra's singing record took so long was a) she got into TV and b) because she wrote all of her songs... which takes more time that having other people write for you ala Clay, Kimberly, Kelly, and Ruben but that's just what I remember hearing... not sure if it came from Tamyra or Ryan or ET but someone out there said it LOL

John stayed in because 1, he was different, 2 a lot of people were hoping big band would come before he left and 3, because of the age factor...

I voted for the first two reasons... I gave him grace points for being young...

still looking back... this year's top 12 was nothing overly special COMPARED to last year's IMHO

 

[JonnyCoop]

still looking back... this year's top 12 was nothing overly special COMPARED to last year's IMHO

I think LAST year's top 12 was a much more evenly matched consistent group for the most part. You had your standouts like Clay, Ruben, and Kimberly Locke (and I really liked Trenyce) but beyond that the rest were at least capable IMO, and pretty much all on the same level. (Except for Julia and Carmen, who I personally could have well done without, tho Carmen had her moments)

This year seems to be "no middle ground" year. You've got the great or pretty darn good (LaToya, Fantasia, Diana) and the Get out the Earplugs (Matt, Camille, Leah), and really nothing in between IMO. So, yeah, I'd have to agree with you that last year was better overall. But then again -- didn't we have a foreshadowing of this during the auditions when a higher percentage of them than usual were just downright ghastly??

I will say, tho, that IMO a Final 3 of Fantasia, LaToya, and Diana would have been the best top 3 ever. Didn't care much for Kelly, Justin OR Nikki; season 2 Clay was fantastic, I was neutral on Kimberly Locke and found Ruben way too predictable long about -- oh, I don't know, week 3?? I think Fantasia and LaToya are fabulous talents, Diana could well be one in the not too far distant future.

 

[RealtorGal]

If the producers REALLY wanted to get rid of Diana, they would make sure that if she makes the final 2, the original song written for her would be SLOW--thus showing her inherent weakness and inability to sing anything with real emotion that didn't just rely on screaming and yelling "C'mon y'all!"

Ryan asked Tamyra what took so long getting her CD out, and she responded that it was because she wrote all the songs on it herself.

 

[Tonichelle]

I dunno... if I were voting on personality then I'd hope Jazz would win... but not a one of them is anyone I'd want on my radio... jmho

Clay's coming out with a Christmas album this year(which is not good cuz I can't play that CD 24/7/365!) and Kelly is reportedly starting work on her album... Clay is also going to be at many state.county fairs this summer... but so far NOTHING in Alaska GRRRRRRR

Josh Gracin's set to be on Ryan Seacrest's show on May 24, as are other AI Alumni to gear up for the finale... no word on the others yet... Josh's album is still set for June 15... and his hit single is top 20, I believe, on the Billboard charts!

Sunday, May 16th
*E! Entertainment Television premieres "True Hollywood Story: American Idol": Features an interview with Josh and several other "AI" finalists. Check local listings for air times.

*TV Guide Channel (70 million households) re-airs their "American Idol: Where Are They Now?” special which features an interview with Josh. (This special originally premiered on March 28th and ran several times daily through April 3rd.) It will start airing again on Sunday, May 16th and will be broadcast numerous times daily through late Saturday, May 22nd.

 

[Rgirl]

Yeah I do know bout the responsibilities about the basic freedoms RG. What I'm mean is, it's like Paula and Randy are saying to me "YOU VOTE FOR THE BEST SINGER(S) OR ELSE I SHOOT YOU IN THE HEAD!!!!" when they tell America that we're deaf, we're crazy, blah blah blah. To me it seems like that. I know it's crazy but then again I myself am...

Well, at least we agree on "I know it's crazy but then again I myself am... " I mean, really, where in the heck did you get the idea that Paula and Randy are saying, "'YOU VOTE FOR THE BEST SINGER(S) OR ELSE I SHOOT YOU IN THE HEAD!!!!'" when they tell America that we're deaf, we're crazy, blah blah blah." All Paula said after the vote was, "I think America got this one wrong." Randy didn't say anything. Simon said this just proves that America chooses the American Idol. In interviews in clips on shows such as Entertainment Tonight, they had said prior to Disco Night their choice for AI was LaToya. They were just expressing their opinions and doing so NOT on AI. As for their reactions to Jasmine's Disco performances, as I've said before, what do you want the judges to do, lie?

Anyway, the voters who put booted off great singers such as Jennifer Hudson and LaToya, as well as pretty good singers like George, while voting in mass numbers for comparitively weak singers such as JPL, John Stevens, and Jasmine just added up to the results of the Access Hollywood poll, which asked: "Has American Idol lost its credibility?"
The results:
Yes--91%
No--9%

I'd say that's a pretty strong message.

Also, I have to say that I find more and more truth to Elton John's comment about racism because so far, all the good to great singers who have been booted off and resulted in enormous controversy have been black. (Amy didn't generate really anycontroversy when she got voted off.) In the '60s and '70s, the US was much more liberal and Motown singers as well as artists such as Jimi Hendrix in the '60s, and Donna Summer, Natalie Cole, and Donna Summer in the '70s were embraced right along with the Beatles, BeeGees, Beach Boys, Billy Joel, etc. Except for Eminem, African-Americans dominate Hip-Hop, but apparently the majority of conservatives in this country don't want to have to hear or look at black pop singers, if they have any say in it. Sure, singers such as Beyonce and others get discovered by producers and become huges stars. But put three very talented black pop singers in front of the American public to vote for them and I think a couple of things happen. One is that blacks make up only about 20% of the US population, IIRC, and I think their vote was split between Jennifer, LaToya, and Fantasia, which adds up to a relatively low number of votes for each. The white vote (yes, I realize there are many, many biracial and cross cultural Americans, but just speaking generally) is so much larger that it can be split and still have howlers get voted on. Two is that I think the majority of the country is conservative and have reverted to being "scared" of blacks.

I know what I've said is very controversial and I'm sure I'll get my butt kicked. I'm not saying anyone here is racist, but the way the voting has gone compared to the quality of the singing leaves me with no other consensus to come to than racism is at least a factor in the general voting. I didn't vote in the Access Hollywood poll (didn't know about it), but ITA with the 91% that voted that American Idol has lost it's credibility--and for very sad reasons, IMO.
Rgirl

PS--Thanks for the info on Tamyra Grey's album taking so long because she wrote all her own songs. I take back my inference that she didn't get a record deal for other reasons.

 

[RealtorGal]

Twinnie, I agree with you about the splitting of the "black" vote among the most talented singers in the competition--Jennifer, La Toya, Fantasia--I actually mentioned this weeks ago. However, if it were true that Americans don't want to see black pop singers, then last year's winner would have been Clay and not Ruuuuuuuuuuben. I do find it interesting, however, that while Clay's career seems to be skyrocketing, Ruben's is sputtering. I don't know what kind of conclusion to draw from that. I do believe that this year's voting has been teen based, and that has swayed the results significantly. I vote for 5 minutes--they don't seem to mind spending 2 hours doing so. En masse. If the show is to survive this year's debacle, they are going to have to somehow change the voting procedure. I think that limiting the calls from each phone number to ONE would be a good solution. That way, people like me who don't vote for two hours BUT WHO DO VOTE would have just as much influence as someone who has been voting for 2 hours straight. This way we would each vote for our favorites for that evening and be done with it. There is a limit to how many phones are in a single household--maybe a phone line, a fax line and a couple of cell phones. Okay, that's 4 votes per household as opposed to logging in 200 votes from a single household!

 

[RealtorGal]

I would also like to mention that Jasmine's inability to sing more than three or four notes in tune has been horrendous to listen to. Her problem is that she is pushing so hard on her larynx/vocal cords--probably to compete with those with big voices--that she is incapable of keeping in tune. If she would ease up on the "vocal power" trip, she could fix that problem immediately.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of hearing about "Jasmine's great tone". Excuse me--that's a load of hooey. A tone out of tune is NEVER great. It's pitiful. It does not belong on national TV week after week. I'm glad the judges are telling it like it is. There are people's careers at stake here. Voting out of pity is irresponsible. Voting to be "anti judge" is just stupid. Not one of Jasmine's so-called supporters has said that they have voted for her because she's the best singer or the best performer on the show or because she's moved them to tears or anything along those lines. In short, nothing to actually justify a vote over a more talented performer.

 

[Grgranny]

I'm beginning to wonder about Ruben. I never thought he was that great, just ok. Anyway, my daughter said he was in the Dallas area a few days ago and hardly anyone showed up. Yesterday, somehow he had missed his plane for the Wichita show and had to get a private plane to make it. When he got there he only sang for about 20 minutes and said "He'd had a bad day" and this morning's paper said he was exhausted. www.kansas.com. They also said there were 37 to 40,000 people there and there were complaints that unless you were close to the front you couldn't hear anything. Mind you, this was outdoors and there were a lot of people there for other things. From what I gathered, they just didn't choose a very good place. It is a big festival with a lot of stuff going on for 10 or so days.

 

[Tonichelle]

One of the reasons Ruben's album didn't do as well was the lyrics in a lot of his songs have swearing or are very suggestive. Not exactly the sweet and innocent velvet teddy bear America voted for. I didn't buy his album after it came out because I'd already read the lyrics and that was enough. I am very disappointed in how that turned out... not so much that it's got questionable lyrics... but that it's the complete opposite of what I voted for.

Another reason is for every Clay fan out there... 95% of them were so mad that he "lost" that they bought 4-10 of his albums... just because they could. And if you DIDN'T then how dare you call yourself a "true fan".

When and if both men make a second album I'd like to see if it was such a huge difference. I doubt a lot of Clay's fans will continue the mass buying of all of his products


then again


On the racist issue... I think it's mostly a load of bunk. Yes there are going to be some out there who refuse to vote for the whites just because... but Fantasia is black, Jazz is Hawaiian, and Diana is white(but I think there's a "mix" in there... anyone know her background?)... I voted for John Stevens, George Huff, and JPL... because I liked their styles... not because of their skin color... and I think that's how MOST of the voters are doing it...

I think if there is discrimination it's in the age factor, not the color one... just my take on the matter.


I think Clay's little schpiel about Fantasia was totally boogerheaded... do you know how many Clay fans are switching to voting for Fantasia JUST because Clay likes her singing so dumb! Yes she's a good singer, but the reasoning behind it is dumb! I bet if Clay said "my favorite type of fan is the one who is crazy enough to jump off a bridge" there'd be bridge jumpers out in mass number.


sorry I'm ranting about Clayfanatics again... bad Toni...

 

[sarahmistral]

Well, at least we agree on "I know it's crazy but then again I myself am... " I mean, really, where in the heck did you get the idea that Paula and Randy are saying, "'YOU VOTE FOR THE BEST SINGER(S) OR ELSE I SHOOT YOU IN THE HEAD!!!!'" when they tell America that we're deaf, we're crazy, blah blah blah." All Paula said after the vote was, "I think America got this one wrong." Randy didn't say anything. Simon said this just proves that America chooses the American Idol. In interviews in clips on shows such as Entertainment Tonight, they had said prior to Disco Night their choice for AI was LaToya. They were just expressing their opinions and doing so NOT on AI. As for their reactions to Jasmine's Disco performances, as I've said before, what do you want the judges to do, lie?

Anyway, the voters who put booted off great singers such as Jennifer Hudson and LaToya, as well as pretty good singers like George, while voting in mass numbers for comparitively weak singers such as JPL, John Stevens, and Jasmine just added up to the results of the Access Hollywood poll, which asked: "Has American Idol lost its credibility?"
The results:
Yes--91%
No--9%

I'd say that's a pretty strong message.

Also, I have to say that I find more and more truth to Elton John's comment about racism because so far, all the good to great singers who have been booted off and resulted in enormous controversy have been black. (Amy didn't generate really anycontroversy when she got voted off.) In the '60s and '70s, the US was much more liberal and Motown singers as well as artists such as Jimi Hendrix in the '60s, and Donna Summer, Natalie Cole, and Donna Summer in the '70s were embraced right along with the Beatles, BeeGees, Beach Boys, Billy Joel, etc. Except for Eminem, African-Americans dominate Hip-Hop, but apparently the majority of conservatives in this country don't want to have to hear or look at black pop singers, if they have any say in it. Sure, singers such as Beyonce and others get discovered by producers and become huges stars. But put three very talented black pop singers in front of the American public to vote for them and I think a couple of things happen. One is that blacks make up only about 20% of the US population, IIRC, and I think their vote was split between Jennifer, LaToya, and Fantasia, which adds up to a relatively low number of votes for each. The white vote (yes, I realize there are many, many biracial and cross cultural Americans, but just speaking generally) is so much larger that it can be split and still have howlers get voted on. Two is that I think the majority of the country is conservative and have reverted to being "scared" of blacks.

I know what I've said is very controversial and I'm sure I'll get my butt kicked. I'm not saying anyone here is racist, but the way the voting has gone compared to the quality of the singing leaves me with no other consensus to come to than racism is at least a factor in the general voting. I didn't vote in the Access Hollywood poll (didn't know about it), but ITA with the 91% that voted that American Idol has lost it's credibility--and for very sad reasons, IMO.
Rgirl

PS--Thanks for the info on Tamyra Grey's album taking so long because she wrote all her own songs. I take back my inference that she didn't get a record deal for other reasons.

Being Black, Cuban, and American raised, and having studied the issue of racism (or "racisms"--different ways of "majority" populations relating to the "immigrant" or "other" communities in their midst, particularly those to whom they are indebted for rather shameful reasons, i.e. African slaves and their descendants in the US, North African Arab workers rebuilding France after having been colonized for nearly two centuries by the French) and finding myself nauseated by the forces we see at work, far more subtle than many imagine, I wasn't going to TOUCH this one with a ten-foot pole (and people probably wish I hadn't, lol); but after reading the Twins' (Rgirl & Rgal ) very intelligent takes on this, I have to weigh in just to say that racism operates in subtle and not so subtle ways.

What this means is that, if people just automatically hear the accusation leveled at the American Idol audience and say, "that's a load of bunk", they're often not aware of the subtly media-inspired "fear of a black planet", to borrow the title of an excellent and very political album by hip-hop outfit Public Enemy, one of the last politically conscious acts to receive significant acclaim and publicity before hip-hop became about showing the worst possible sex and gun crazed behavior in the Black community (Hugh Grant's mock son in "About A Boy" mentioned loving hip-hop and finding from his listening to it that Black people were "really angry" all the time, but then just really wanted to have sex when they weren't being really angry--paraphrasing here, but that's the gist of it).

This move toward gangsta rap with all its degrading, anti-black empowerment (unless it involves illegal acts reflecting a whole lot of self-hatred deep down) is very much encouraged by the four (or is it five?) White owned media conglomerates, for after studying the issue for years, I contend that there's a great fear among upper-class White America of losing the privilege that comes with being wealthy and White. These conglomerate owners and all their cronies and people on their payroll, going hand in hand with parts of our political leadership, are well aware that their privilege would be at risk if they were to encourage positive, political rap acts attempting to empower Blacks not to steal or kill each other but rather to study, make progress, learn their extensive history of oppression in America and demand that it becomes part of a systematic attempt to educate ALL Americans about Black history including slavery, which IS American history and NOT something to be showcased on the shortest month of the year. The sort of hip hop promoted by today's media conglomerates then goes on to be happily consumed by poor Black populations mesmerized by the glint and the glamour of the "baller"/gangsta lifestyle, full of excess that stands in such sharp contrast to the squalor of life in the projects and, rather than work on improving their situations through study and other more positive pursuits, they are tempted to take the easy way out, the way of many of the hardcore rap stars of our day, i.e. Jay Z, who uses his fame to harp and harp on his gangsta/baller status and make his way of living the standard to aspire to as a young Black person, effectively wasting his rhyming skills to talk about nothing of substance in his lyrics, at least nothing that might empower or encourage young Blacks to seek equality through education.

This type of hip-hop and its enormous popularity (and the utter refusal of media conglomerates to market anything different) serves two very negative purposes, in my mind: first of all, it keeps poor, uneduated Black Americans seeking to emulate "the lifestyle", under the media influence and perceiving other lifestyles as uncool or unhip among their equally snowed peers. The second purpose is to confirm to White Americans that this disgusting caricature that in no way reflects the whole of Black America with its great diversity within the community, is what Black people are essentially about, and this impression, in turn, elicits either disgust and worsens racism, perpetuating the most simplistic stereotypes since the days of Minstrel performances (some call the current hip-hop scene modern minstrel--Spike Lee's Bamboozled speaks to this) or a morbid sort of admiration or fascination, usually among White teenagers who also begin to emulate the gangsta/baller lifestyle, depicted as so cool by the media.


As a huge fan of underground hip-hop/rap as well as of the few positive, politically and historically aware acts who actually get record deals and publicity these days, all those rap groups seeking to educate, not to talk about guns and gangs and tits and a@@, I can confirm that there IS a LOT of hip-hop like that out there. Back in the early 90s, the golden age of hip-hop with conscious, intelligent acts actually making a living like Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, KRS One, and Boogie Down Productions, the latter had a song called "You Must Learn", talking about the history of Blacks in the US, facing severe oppression, abuse, killings, all while virtually building a nation for free and truly at their own expense. The song was all but banned, even though there was no profanity in it. Sign of the coming times (late 90s, 2000 and on)

So, to end this, I submit that the influence of racism finds its way into mainstream America's consciousness very surreptitiously, kind of like a poison in the water; media images of Blacks, from the time we're very little (and even I as a woman of color have had serious issues with African-Americans, having grown up in a conservative White Cuban community where people never believed I was Cuban because of my skin color and where they looked down upon African-Americans and other "darkies" --they still do, for the record), find their way into the average person's subconscious in the form of negative stereotypes and repeated "negative reinforcement" in the sense of the depiction of the Black man as criminal (see the show, COPS for instances of this--and if you're to contend that they just *are* more likely to commit a crime, do your homework and look at, among other things, the disproportionate poverty--crime begets poverty, and no matter what the Republican establishment might intimate, most poor people are NOT poor because they want to or because they're lazy--many struggle and struggle, work ridiculous hours and still can't dig themselves out of that hole), the aggressive, neck-swinging Black woman as just unpleasant and not at all appealing, and so on and so forth. So you've met someone like this in your lifetime, you might think; have you met EVERY Black person in the country?

So, when Rgirl talks about racist America, I don't think she means that every single American makes a conscious decision to vote for Diana over Latoya because Diana's not Black; the general tendency (and of course, there are exceptions, notably people who are very aware of being either anti-racist and educated about racism and its history or virulently, uncompromisingly racist) is much more subtle and undefined, and due to the diet of media images, to the lack of understanding among peoples in a very divided and, in some places, still defacto segregated country, someone as seemingly different culturally from the white mainstream "us" as a Latoya, with her sass and her confidence that MUST be arrogance, just puts some people ill at ease, and that's not necessarily indicating that they *make a decision* to be racist; it's more a symptom of a much larger phenomenon.

Phew; sorry; just had to get that out. BTW, I don't watch AI, I'm just following this very interesting discussion, especially after an AOL article featured a very rare discussion of potential racism being a factor in voting off Jennifer, the article concluding on the note that maybe this was a good thing, because it would force us as a nation, or at least those of us who see a problem and those who don't and want to argue, into a dialogue that should have been going on for years but that was silenced by the general misinterpretation of the political correctness movement.

Many hear PC and think, "I can't say Black, I have to say African American, that's all the PC movement is about", but as a sophomore in high school when I first studied it in '95, I can tell you that it was more about challenging the notion that the only great works and history deserving to be on school curricula in this country are those of Western European and White North American civilizations, and it was a noble attempt to look at the great literature and thought spawned by those who European ethnologists working under colonialist governments called the "peoples without history", "savages to be civilized by colonialism", etc, as well as to admit that these people *DID* have a history and culture and a rich one deserving of attention as much as Western civ., the long-standing staple of our academic diet.

Okay, that's enough for a lifetime; hope someone gets something out of this post besides impatient annoyance. For the record, this is my first ever GS post related to my academic studies I can "write this off" as NOT procrastinating on my MA schoolwork, then

Sarah

 

[guinevere]

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of hearing about "Jasmine's great tone". Excuse me--that's a load of hooey.

ITA!! I think that started as Paula's way of saying "We originally thought you had a nice voice but you can't hit a note with a baseball bat, but we put you here [in the Top 32 at least] and if you did hit a note right it would probably sound alright, so I don't want to be mean and I already told someone else they looked beautiful so I can't use that one again tonight", and people took that as The Word on Jasmine. :sheesh:

Sarah, RealtorGal and Rgirl - thanks for your thoughts. I've gone back and forth about my thoughts on the voting. I think on the surface, at least, age is a more predominant factor in the voting than race - but I do agree that racism is so ingrained in Americans' minds that we don't even see how it colors our decisions, because it's so subconscious for (most of) us. I also think that having 4 "powerful" (black) voices did split the vote, as the other contestants have had more of a niche appeal, and could rally all their fans around THEM, as opposed to voting for several - but really, if LaFannifer were the last 3 contestants, I think we'd see the differences in their styles more clearly, instead of thinking of them as one type of singer (I'm not including George there just because to me, male and female singers sound very different).

guinevere

 

[Tonichelle]

I just find that Elton John screaming AI is racist after he was a feature song writer on that thing was a bunch of bunk... and no more than a publicity stunt... he screamed foul, but he never did sign to work with Jennifer(they can't announce it, but the Sinatra family already announced they were talking to John Stevens' family... John could do the same) -- or he never mentioned it -- so is Sir Elton John also racist? it'd be an interesting quetion to pose to him.

IF AI fans were racist, why would Randy still be on?

I realize there's racism out there, and omg it's on TV... but calling foul just because one skin color is still on the show and another isn't is just annoying, I don't think that's what America was voting on. I didn't like Jennifer's voice, but it's not because she's Black ... it was because I didn't like her style... a lot of people didn't like Clay because he was "too broadway" I saw it as a breath of fresh air, however with Jennifer I saw her on broadway before I saw her on a pop album--that and she totally ruined her country song GRRRR--I also felt that Jennifer sort of "lost" herself when she made her look more main stream pop. It worked for Clay... but the girls were starting to look like carbon copies of each other... Latoya and Fantasia had short hair, and the first couple of weeks had similar styles... but I think both did well to not wear their hair the same way after that... Jennifer went from bouncy to flat iron straight... and she lost her spunk IMHO...


I guess here in Alaska... in a podunk community I just don't see it as much... here we're all a big mixing pot and we don't "see it" as much... granted there have been incidents where "outsiders" (ie non-residents/tourists/politicians) have had problems... but for the most part we've been sheltered here in Kenai... I've never been somewhere where it was a big deal to be one color or the other... we don't have segregated churches (I'd be really surprised if an all white or all black church even existed here...) one of my mom's best friends is black... and I love to hang with her... she's a lot of fun... and I've never had a problem talking about anything -- including the whole issue of race on American Idol... she doesn't like Fantasia, Latoya, or Jennifer... she liked George, and she liked JPL... because they were entertainers... she didn't like Clay or Ruben last year but she liked Kimberly... she loves Kelly... she didn't see anything wrong with the Jennifer thing because of race... just the fact that people didn't like the style of singing...

call me uneducated in teh real world... but not all of the USA is screwed up...

 

[Kara Bear]

I think the point a lot of people are trying to make is that there is a level of racism going on. Its not as if Americans are saying, "I'm not going to vote for this girl because she's black." I think this sort of racism is a deep subconscious part of out society. The way society is today still does not treat nonwhite people on the same level as white. IT still is there...it just takes subtle forms.

 

[Piel]

Clay is also going to be at many state.county fairs this summer... but so far NOTHING in Alaska GRRRRRRR

Toni, Clay will be in concert at the Charleston, WV civic center on July 13 Come on down!

 

[Rgirl]

Sarahmistral,
Your post was absolutely brilliant. I think you should send it to AI and ask them to publish it on their website. Either That or send it into TIME or NEWSWEEK or some more liberal mag like THE DETROIT FREE PRESS for publication. It's no surprise that you're studying this issue in your Master's program, but I've known a lot of Master's students in a lot of areas who can't even explain what they're studying. Really, that post is remarkable and put so many of my ideas that were expressed in a clunky way into focus. I hope people who "didn't get it" will reread it, many times if necessary. It's rare that we get the truth expressed so eloquently and accurately expressed in a post.

BTW, SarahMistral knows music and singing, too, and in a big way. Sarah, I hope you don't mind my saying so, I just want people to know that your knowledge on this subject is very deep. And yes, you did express exactly what I meant.

Rgal,
Bravo to you as well. You hit so many issues right out of the park. As for your question about Ruuuuben, I think what happened there was that although there were other black singers on AI-2, Ruben was the immediate favorite because of his personality. Plus, the judges kept reinforcing how "great" he was, ie, Paula, "Ruben, you just fill the room with warmth everytime you perform!" ad infinitum. So I think the majority of the black vote went to Ruben every week, whereas this year, I think the "3 divas" split 3/4ths of the black vote about three ways, with Jennifer getting the least (except that one week when she got the most votes of anyone), and LaToya and Fantasia alternating in terms of most votes. With George, I think he got a lot of personality votes from that last 1/4 of the black viewers, but his voice just wasn't that strong. So none of the black contestants was a standout, huggable Ruben teddy bear who you could vote for whether he could sing or not. But when it came down to Clay and Ruben, the black vote and a section white "Clay-haters" gave Ruben a teeny tiny edge over Clay.

BTW, Clay's albums will always outsell Ruben's not matter what the lyrics are because Clay can sing like gangbusters and Ruben only has a pleasant church voice. All that "teddy bear warmth" doesn't come through on a CD. As for people not buying Ruben's record because some of the lyrics were naughty, I'm sure that affected certain conservatives, but if you look at lyrics for most pop records, with white, black, or mixed singers, obscene lyrics usually mean BIG sales, not less sales.

And high-five for explaining the truth about Jasmine's so-called "beautiful tone." Yep, yep, yep.

Toni, Toni, Toni,
I can't believe some of the things I read in your post, although of course it's all too believable because it's exactly what Sarah wrote about.

A few examples:
"IF AI fans were racist, why would Randy still be on?" Uh, Toni. The producers hire Randy. The audience doesn't vote on which judges should stay on.

If Jennifer's change of hair made that much of a difference, then everything SarahMistral said is even more true than I thought it was. BTW, Jennifer got the highest number of votes AFTER she straightened her hair. As for "She lost her spunk"--puh-lease. She was in the bottom three when she was curly and spunky, she got the highest number of votes when she was straight-haired and sophisticated singing "The Lion King." And no, she did not totally "ruin" her country song. At least you didn't mention Josh Gracin in this post.

"One of my mom's best friends is black...and I love to hang with her." Does anyone else here reading this need an explanation on the history of "some of my best friends are black"? Toni, if I said, "I've been to Kenai. I was there for a whole week. Plus I know somebody from Kenai on an Internet forum. And I can tell you that the people there all live in their own little world," would you think I knew what I was talking about? Of course not. It would be absolutely ridiculous.

As for LaToya and Elton John, for god's sake, she was only voted off last Wednesday! As for John Stevens and Frank Sinatra's "people"--that would be his children, who are the only ones who have control over Sinatra's music, how about we wait until an actual CD is released?

"Call me uneducated in teh real world..." Well...

"But not all of the USA is screwed up..." Only an uneducated person would expect a serious answer to a statement saying "not all of the USA is screwed up." It's a semantic trap. You're implying that people who disagree with you think every single person in the US is "screwed up" and nobody is saying that. Reread SarahMistral's post. She explains things very well and in a way that can be easily understood.

And as many have said a gazillion times, everyone here is entitled to express their opinion. But if I might make a suggestion. First of all, living in a small community has many benefits that people don't have who live in suburban sprawl or most urban area. New York tends to be different--and I don't say this just because I live here, it's been well studied-- because the neighborhoods tend to be like villages, but all you have to do is walk a few blocks or take the subway for 20 minutes and you're in a whole other world. Anyway, you have the unique opportunity to read well-researched and well-experienced information from people like SarahMistral, someone who really has seen many sides of the world, as well as posts from other forum members who have had wide-ranging experiences. I'm not saying you shouldn't express your opinions or you should change your mind, but I would suggest keeping a file of some of these posts you find so disagreeable and read them again later. I mean weeks, months, and years later. I know I wish I'd had such an opportunity when I was 19. I didn't realize how small my world was--and I lived in a medium-large city at 19 and had travelled a lot--until I was faced with other places and people, and not just for a visit. Just a suggestion.


In general, I hope they do change the format of AI next season. What happened with Tamyra Grey in AI-1 just seemed like a fluke. AI-2 had the battle of Ruben and Clay so things seemed to be working out right. But AI-3 has been a joke for all the reasons SarahMistral made so clear in her post.
Rgirl
Preparing for getting my butt kicked now

 

[Kasey]

I told myself I would not again post in any AI thread, based on bad feelings regarding the talent (or lack of) of John Stevens. I just wanted to say "Bravo" to Sarahmistral and Rgirl.

End of post, before MY opinions come out too much!

Kasey

 

[Tonichelle]

no butt kicking from me... but I can't take a subway or a bus and be in the city in 20 minutes... try 3 hours if ya speed in a car

I'll admit I'm wrong in my way of thinking... and yeah the whole "black" thing is out of my legue(I'm sure that comment right there will get you yelling again but oh well I'm tired of trying to be politically correct because I'm screwing it up much more so than just being blunt so what the heck)

I don't think I mentioned LaToya and Elton John... it was in reference to Jennifer. All I was saying was that Elton was the first to point the finger... but really if Jennifer is such a great talent why isn't there an even a slight mention of Elton taking over... Niel Sadaka said that if Clay didn't get signed on after AI he'd take the plunge and produce his first album... the Sinatra's have said that they're looking into it for John... I'm not saying that it's going to happen... and I'm not saying Elton hasn't contacted Jennifer... I just wonder why in his whole schpiel on ET he didn't mention that he personally would feel "safe" with signing her on. Then again maybe he wouldn't want to risk millions on this "subconciously racist" America we live in. I don't know.

I know I'm from a stupid little community... and I'm totally stupid when it comes to this, but I honestly can't imagine even on a subconcious level that most of the AI voters could be voting in that way. Just my feelings on it. Right or wrong it's not going to change because older people in the "real world" have decided that that's how it is and it's not going to change. It is changing... and even changing slowly is better than no change at all? Right?