Amplitude of leg elevation in Camel Spin: its roof

[Petrushko Sashenko]

I've always admired the very complex positions of the pivots (spins) in rhythmic gymnastics. I understand that their purpose is to put the lines first rather than the speed and rotations, as they tend to be slower and with less revolutions than spins in figure skating.

One pivot has come to my attention for its resemblance with the camel spin, that is the penché (here, Evgenia Kanaeva, amongst others performs some penché pivot variations).

Given the fact that the camel spin is supposed to mimic an arabesque spiral position (Sasha Cohen during a spiral), I wonder why I haven't seen a figure skater try to elevate his / her free leg up to the 180°, increasing the difficulty of the move (and its beauty). Is it because it's physically "impossible" to do on ice skates? Is it because it's against the rules?

Has any skater from any country or period ever tried it in the public eye?

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Penchee positions appear sometimes in pair/dance spins. The girl does a sort of Charlotte spiral while the guy supports her.

I don't think it's possible to do a penchee spin by yourself on skates. In a spiral (180 degrees or not) your weight is further back on the gliding portion of the blade which is broader and has more leeway for adjusting balance. In a spin you need to be on the spin rocker, which is a lot smaller in area, and going a smidgen further forward you'd hit the toepicks, which is a recipe for disaster considering that the penchee position magnifies small weight shifts.

On dry land, having the ball of the foot as the point of contact allows more leeway for balance. An analogy in ballet - pirouettes on pointe are more challenging than on demipointe (easier to spin but harder to maintain balance).

 

[Dawn825]

I have often wondered this too, if a penche or charlotte position could be acheived in a spin. I wonder if anyone has even tried.

 

[mrrice]

I have often wondered this too, if a penche or charlotte position could be acheived in a spin. I wonder if anyone has even tried.

This is an interesting question. I would imagine the centrifugal force would make it difficult to hold while spinning. That's why a Denis Biellmann held her blade and Alissa Czisny did the same with her Heel Extension Spin.

 

[theblade]

My kid has done years of both rhythmic and figure skating - physics does come into play here. I think there is the possibility of training to see how far one can do the penché position in a spin, and I have wondered this myself.

First, you would need a skater that trains both disciplines seriously for several years. (In my kid's case, the rhythmic was in service of the figure skating - the rhythmic gym insisted that she be on the team and compete fully for the season to be there, so she was "double sporting" it for about three years competitively. Oof. Her results were better in figure skating competitions than rhythmic ones because that's where her interests were. This training regime changed in 2020, however, due to gym closures.)

I don't know what the training in Russia is like, but many of the young skaters there would probably be able to have a coach create a skills-building regime with an eye towards such a figure skating penché spin.

Having skated myself but with minimal physics classes, my thoughts are first when starting the camel - I remember it taking a fair amount of strength to hoist my free foot up into a camel (slightly above hip, I had good flexibility) position. It took a lot of core strength to keep my head up and balance in front what was happening in the back.

Now, the question - can you smoothly go from a camel to a penché, or straight to a penché? Spinning on a blade, on ice, allows for a faster rotation than in a leather-sole rhythmic shoe (where you work on a carpet surface), or a ballet toe slipper (which is on a dance floor, often vinyl marley or hardwood). The original poster is correct, these spins tend to be slower and with less revolutions (partly due to the leather/carpet combo, partly due to physics.)

The speed of the rotation would probably be an issue on ice - but I think a modified version is possible. It's exciting to consider, but wouldn't be an easy spin to create. Might take a few years for a skater to work out a version of it (that doesn't have a partner assist, or, as an individual, a grabbing of the blade or leg).

 

[Petrushko Sashenko]

Heel Extension Spin

What's this?

 

[mrrice]

Alissa Czisny does a beautiful "Heel Extension" Spin at 3:07 in her swan SP

Alissa Czisny 2009 Swan

alissa czisny

www.youtube.com

 

[Mathman]

The only skater I ever saw who was strong enoungh to hold an unassisted 180 on any move was Shizuka Arakawa on her spiral.

Arakawa also had a physical anomaly in her lower vertebrae that allowed her to do a contortionist Ina Bauer that has never been matched (reminiscent, in fact, of some of the positions that rhythmic gymnasts and acrobatic dancers acheive).

 

[Petrushko Sashenko]

Penchee positions appear sometimes in pair/dance spins. The girl does a sort of Charlotte spiral while the guy supports her.

I don't think it's possible to do a penchee spin by yourself on skates. In a spiral (180 degrees or not) your weight is further back on the gliding portion of the blade which is broader and has more leeway for adjusting balance. In a spin you need to be on the spin rocker, which is a lot smaller in area, and going a smidgen further forward you'd hit the toepicks, which is a recipe for disaster considering that the penchee position magnifies small weight shifts.

On dry land, having the ball of the foot as the point of contact allows more leeway for balance. An analogy in ballet - pirouettes on pointe are more challenging than on demipointe (easier to spin but harder to maintain balance).

I think Mishkutenok & Dmitriev were one of the first successful couples to introduce that assisted sort of a Charlotte-camel spin back in the late 80s.

 

[Petrushko Sashenko]

My kid has done years of both rhythmic and figure skating - physics does come into play here. I think there is the possibility of training to see how far one can do the penché position in a spin, and I have wondered this myself.

First, you would need a skater that trains both disciplines seriously for several years. (In my kid's case, the rhythmic was in service of the figure skating - the rhythmic gym insisted that she be on the team and compete fully for the season to be there, so she was "double sporting" it for about three years competitively. Oof. Her results were better in figure skating competitions than rhythmic ones because that's where her interests were. This training regime changed in 2020, however, due to gym closures.)

I don't know what the training in Russia is like, but many of the young skaters there would probably be able to have a coach create a skills-building regime with an eye towards such a figure skating penché spin.

Having skated myself but with minimal physics classes, my thoughts are first when starting the camel - I remember it taking a fair amount of strength to hoist my free foot up into a camel (slightly above hip, I had good flexibility) position. It took a lot of core strength to keep my head up and balance in front what was happening in the back.

Now, the question - can you smoothly go from a camel to a penché, or straight to a penché? Spinning on a blade, on ice, allows for a faster rotation than in a leather-sole rhythmic shoe (where you work on a carpet surface), or a ballet toe slipper (which is on a dance floor, often vinyl marley or hardwood). The original poster is correct, these spins tend to be slower and with less revolutions (partly due to the leather/carpet combo, partly due to physics.)

The speed of the rotation would probably be an issue on ice - but I think a modified version is possible. It's exciting to consider, but wouldn't be an easy spin to create. Might take a few years for a skater to work out a version of it (that doesn't have a partner assist, or, as an individual, a grabbing of the blade or leg).

Alissa Czisny does a beautiful "Heel Extension" Spin at 3:07 in her swan SP

Alissa Czisny 2009 Swan

alissa czisny

www.youtube.com

Oh, right. I didn't know it was named a "heel extension". Czisny's great and spectacular, and Valieva has taken that spin to the next level. That isn't, however, similar to a camel spin, by any means, looks more like an I-Spin to the side (a Y-spin, then).

 

[mskater93]

In a came, the best you are going to find is one with a "champagne glass" look to the free leg and back. Penche is not possible due to the balance point of a spin