Article about Mariah Bell (and artistry vs technical prowess) in The Guardian

[TallyT]

As expected, a Mariah article becomes a Nathan bashing. I seriously doubt some poster watch same Nathan programs as other fs fans do.

Not bashing him, just the Guardian.

 

[alexaa]

Not bashing him, just the Guardian.

it would be blind to see no trashing from some comment. This is a US lady’s article, what is about Natha’s landing and not being able or having the stamina to perform Yuzu’s program?

You are just too used to Nathan bashing in thread totally unrelated to him.

 

[el henry]

I don't follow the ladies that closely, but...

USFS *hyping* Mariah Bell? From an article in the Guardian? Ummmm, I don't think so. I like watching Mariah (I like it better when she skates Rohene programs) and I think she is polished and expressive.

I don't think the USFS is "stuck in the past" at all. . Geez Louise, a fed could not promote a skater any more than the USFS promotes Nathan. (I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm saying they do). The same folks are responsible for "promoting" the other disciplines, I believe. You play the hand you're dealt.

 

[el henry]

it would be blind to see no trashing from some comment. This is a US lady’s article, what is about Natha’s landing and not being able or having the stamina to perform Yuzu’s program?

You are just too used to Nathan bashing in thread totally unrelated to him.

What are you talking about? Can you tell me who is "some poster" who is trashing Nathan? For example, I don't like aspects of Nathan's skating, and I say so. That doesn't make me a basher

@TallyT, although I don't want to speak for them, as far as I can tell, is talking about *the Guardian's* viewpoint.

 

[alexaa]

What are you talking about? Can you tell me who is "some poster" who is trashing Nathan? For example, I don't like aspects of Nathan's skating, and I say so. That doesn't make me a basher

@TallyT, although I don't want to speak for them, as far as I can tell, is talking about *the Guardian's* viewpoint.

I didn’t refer to TallyT, even though in her eyes, any competition Nathan won was not a good competition.

It Is fine if you don’t see any. I mentioned the phrases in my comment from the poster who tried to convince people Nathan should only score 7 in PCS for his 2019 GPF performances, I.e. the lowest among all 6 skaters.

And it is fine for you to change the topic from the Guardian article to USFSA incompetent promoting of their skaters

 

[Skatefan15]

Unless I read a different article than was was linked in the original post, this article focuses on Bell’s performance at Nationals and basically says she has shown improvements. I didn’t take it as anything more or less.
There have been plenty of articles about Bradie and Lui, yet I didn’t see anyone complaining when these articles were published.

And yes, it was a huge accomplishment when Bell AND Bradie beat Alina. When was the last time an American beat one of the Russians- who’re specifically the reigning Olympic champion. Maybe it is one of Alina’s weakest performances, but her skating was declining that year and it’s possible they would’ve beaten her anyhow. Let’s give them credit when it’s deserves.

I wouldn’t say it was a huge accomplishment to beat Alina given what her season was like (she wasn’t even going to worlds). And I’m not really going to give them a lot of credit for that, sure it’s great, but there’s not many other top Russians (or Japanese) that they would beat, especially since right now those two countries have skaters skating amazing programs with high tech content and some nice PCS.
Also, I think the reason not many complained about those articles is because Alysa was the youngest champion we had ever had in the US and was doing 3A’s and quads. For Bradie, there hasn’t been that much media attention on her. Her nickname as the one who is consistent was mostly tagged by the commentators, Johnny and Tara, and the articles that were about her weren’t written in the same way Mariah’s have (pushing the narrative that Mariah is a great artistic skater who is basically “robbed” because skaters with better, harder jumps are beating her). I get that this article was clickbait and all, but hearing the same old argument about artistry vs technical when talking about her is getting kind of old.

 

[Mathman]

You play the hand you're dealt.

I think that is the whole thing in a nutshell. If Mariah is who you've got, you encourage newspapers to write nice things about Mariah. If you've got Bradie and Alysa, too, then you hope folks will also say nice things about them. And how 'bout yhat Audrey chick who did so well at Skate America!?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

The US is pushing so hard for a skater who imo (and many others) isn’t even the best the US has.

I believe that there are some in U.S. fed who may have preferred for Mariah to win last January. Or else, the realization came later for U.S. fed as a whole, that Mariah 'stole the show,' and she should have been rewarded. So tardily and unfortunately as they have a tendency to do, U.S. fed begins to orchestrate and overdo in order to make up for what maybe doesn't look like a good decision last January after all. Perhaps they are simply schizophrenic in their lack of ability to see what's best and to see who should be fairly rewarded at the time, and not after-the-fact.

It doesn't do Mariah any favors for U.S. fed to be working so hard overtime to 'make up' for misreading the room regarding Mariah's huge performance at the time. I believe the media (and many fans) recognized at the time that Mariah's performance was personally transcendent for her, very compelling and a huge hit. So, the fact she didn't win was not a very good look. Unfortunately, IMO, it's a worse look to overdo trying to make up after-the-fact for not choosing the right winner. This now at the same time that the young object of their previous overdone favoritism and boosting has (predictably IMHO) begun to run into growing pains and developmental hiccoughs.

That said, I don't see any reason to overly criticize and put down Mariah because of U.S. fed's overdone, after-the-fact, huge push to anoint her as 'the real' U.S. ladies champion. Mariah's performance last January was close to being all that it's praised for. It certainly was a meaningful and important journey for her, and finally a step to overcoming her past jitters. Adam's partnership with her worked in a big way. The problem now is not only the unpredictability of this season due to the pandemic, but also too much pressure now being placed upon Mariah to repeat her brilliance from last January. The overdone push will only add to the pressure and nerves Mariah feels, as we saw at Skate America, where it's debatable that Bradie wasn't given more credit for how well she performed. Bradie has worked very hard and she looked good, but I suppose U.S. fed is worried about her vulnerability on URs and they possibly feel that Mariah's personality and charming appeal is more sellable.

Having now read the article, I think this feature in The Guardian is in the vein of simplistic p.r./ promotion in the lead-up to U.S. Nationals. It's rather interesting to see the this as the publication venue. It's fairly well written, but mostly on-the-surface promotion without depth or detailed reflection. However, I don't think it's making Mariah out to be a greater artist than she actually is. It's accurate to describe her as more mature and nuanced in her skating. But even with more expressive presentation skills, she certainly has to combine her aesthetic sensibilities with clean, precise jumps to the limits of what she can do, especially in the absence of having greater tech difficulty in her arsenal.

U.S. fed over-hyping and throwing all their eggs in one basket is always head-shaking. They just need to relax and to support all of their skaters, and to help all of them to shine. IMHO, Mariah should have won last year, and Bradie should probably have prevailed the prior year, with Alysa in second both years (due to her lack of maturity and presentation skills). I realize that Bradie did not help herself against the budding favorite who was being backed to the hilt, but there was still a good reason to not over-reward Alysa Liu too precipitously. They still could have nurtured and promoted Alysa (as a silver medalist) without going overboard with guns a-blazin,' especially for a very young skater who still needs time to develop. No matter that Alysa looked like she was going to be able to continuously wield all the desired difficult jumps on the world stage. The problem is there's no guarantee that a young skater of 12 and 13 is going to continue to progress in a nonstop direction to the top, without problems and roadblocks.

 

[Mathman]

I believe that there are some in U.S. fed who may have preferred for Mariah to win last January. Or else, the realization came later for U.S. fed as a whole, that Mariah 'stole the show,' and she should have been rewarded....

It doesn't do Mariah any favors for U.S. fed to be working so hard overtime to 'make up' for misreading the room regarding Mariah's huge performance at the time. ...

Oh, I don't know about all that. The job of the judges is to judge the contest, not to "read the room" or to consult with "some in the U.S. Fed" about what they may or may not have preferred.

Mariah skated beautifully in the LP at Nationals. She got a good score. She is getting some good press in this weird year. The USFSA is doing what little they can to stir up some sort of enthusiasm among fans for this year's Nationals. I think the whole topic is being overblown.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Oh, I don't know about all that. The job of the judges is to judge the contest, not to "read the room" or to consult with "some in the U.S. Fed" about what they may or may not have preferred.

Mariah skated beautifully in the LP at Nationals. She got a good score. She is getting some good press in this weird year. The USFSA is doing what little they can to stir up some sort of enthusiasm among fans for this year's Nationals. I think the whole topic is being overblown.

Yeah, you could be right. It just appears on the outside to be a bit forced and extremely overdone heavy promotion of Mariah after-the-fact. My views have formed in this respect, especially in light of the favoritism and heavy expectations placed on Mariah at Skate America. Mariah still looks strong, but her programs aren't as strong this season, and she definitely has to work through the different feeling of coming in as the favorite rather than the underdog.

IMO, the current buzz around Mariah makes the promotional articles and attention on her not just about drumming up interest in U.S. Nationals in light of the pandemic. In any case, as far as I'm concerned, there should always be a long term strategy in place to promote figure skating for the right reasons, and not just around the Olympics and in the weeks leading up to (what this year will be) a scaled-down U.S. Nationals.

I enjoy Mariah's skating and I was extremely happy for her breakthrough performance. She looked good all last season. I just wish the fed would relax a little. There's nothing wrong with pushing and praising in the aftermath since that was a wonderful performance that was the best of the night. Arguably, Mariah should have been rewarded with a win on the basis of merit, not because it was necessary to 'read-the-room.' Sure I used that phrase after-the-fact in the sense that it seems as if U.S. fed began to realize the huge appeal of Mariah's skate in the aftermath. Judging is always what it is in this sport, and it's never completely unbiased, or completely fair (especially under the ever-changing scoring system that has so many complexities and failings).

I don't care about the jumps in the absence of being a well-rounded skater. It's not as much about Alysa's lack of maturity as it is about over-rewarding her on PCS to help boost her scores in both 2019 and 2020, because she was seen as 'the next big sure-fire thing' for U.S. ladies, which tends to always be a sketchy judgment and label to uphold.

I do enjoy all of the disciplines, but ladies for quite awhile has been the least interesting for me as a whole, and the one I watch in full the least. I follow what's happening domestically and internationally among ladies, but I'm not into most of the performances either domestically or internationally. Albeit there are some homegrown ladies I like to watch regardless of their chances of making the podium. I still have tremendous respect for the level of talent that exists among U.S. ladies, and I shake my head at the widespread tendency to constantly look down on and overly criticize U.S. ladies as a whole, simply because they aren't dominating internationally anymore. There are lots of reasons for the current set of competitive circumstances. Chiefly as I said earlier, because Russia, South Korea and Japan have stellar ladies divisions which have caught up and in some aspects surpassed the U.S. And another reason, as I stated earlier, is because of U.S. fed's ongoing lack of political savvy and political clout.

 

[Skatefan15]

IMHO, Mariah should have won last year, and Bradie should probably have prevailed the prior year, with Alysa in second both years (due to her lack of maturity and presentation skills). I realize that Bradie did not help herself against the budding favorite who was being backed to the hilt, but there was still a good reason to not over-reward Alysa Liu too precipitously.

I think that Alysa rightfully won both of her titles. She had high tech content and her PCS weren’t horrible and were enough. It happens in countries like Russia and Japan. I think it was great the US had a champion who was trying the same type of stuff as the top countries (compared to people who could barely rotate triple triples).Yes, she was less mature compared to her older competitors. But what’s kind of interesting is that what played to her “immaturity” was that she was really smiley and had a lack of skating skills, which is honestly what I see with Mariah’s skating. Is Mariah a good performer? Yeah, sure (I’m not a fan of her skating but I’ll admit that). But is she an artist/great overall PCS skater? Not imo, she doesn’t really check off any of the other components to make her hyped up as this amazing artist (definitely shouldn’t have gotten 75 last year). She doesn’t have many transitions and her skating skills/ice coverage are quite weak to a Bradie, an Amber, or a Karen in the US and many more internationally.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I think that Alysa rightfully won both of her titles. She had high tech content and her PCS weren’t horrible and were enough

Fair enough. I just disagree, due to the high level of over-hyping she received before and after her first U.S. Nationals win.. Alysa deserves to be nurtured and promoted and rewarded, but it was exceedingly overdone for all the wrong reasons, IMHO. U.S. figure skating always seems to move in ways that are not forward-thinking but always reactionary and behind-the-times. A talented young skater should be nurtured and given resources, but not be so over-hyped and over-favorited when there's no way of knowing exactly how they will develop when they show talent at a young age.

As I said before, there's too much of a tendency by U.S. figure skating to place all their eggs in one basket. I was not and I am not against Alysa. I was just cautiously observant in the early going, and I hoped her career would go forward as it was being advertised. But that rarely happens in the ways that are over-expected. U.S. fed doesn't seem to ever learn anything from their over-hyping mistakes.

I definitely disagree with Alysa's PCS scoring. Plus, there were some misses on UR calls for Alysa at both 2019 and 2020 U.S. Nationals.

 

[Skatefan15]

Fair enough. I just disagree, due to the high level of over-hyping she received before and after her first U.S. Nationals win.. Alysa deserves to be nurtured and promoted and rewarded, but it was exceedingly overdone for all the wrong reasons, IMHO. U.S. figure skating always seems to move in ways that are not forward-thinking but always reactionary and behind-the-times. A talented young skater should be nurtured and given resources, but not be so over-hyped and over-favorited when there's no way of knowing exactly how they will develop when they show talent at a young age.

As I said before, there's too much of a tendency by U.S. figure skating to place all their eggs in one basket. I was not and I am not against Alysa. I was just cautiously observant in the early going, and I hoped her career would go forward as it was being advertised. But that rarely happens in the ways that are over-expected. U.S. fed doesn't seem to ever learn anything from their over-hyping mistakes.

I definitely disagree with Alysa's PCS scoring. Plus, there were some misses on UR calls for Alysa at both 2019 and 2020 U.S. Nationals.

I agree that Alysa was over hyped as well and should’ve been more nurtured. But I think the US Fed was just excited to have someone who could touch top competitors (I don’t really agree with it though because it ends putting a lot of pressure on her). As for the UR calls, there might have been some that were missed (none that I can recall right now), but there was some for others as well (triple triples). What’s funny to me is that as much as there’s an outcry about overscoring in other countries, the US might be the worst (for everyone). There was no way Mariah or Alysa would’ve gotten the scores they got at nationals and I know that federations really want to bump up their skaters’ scores, but it felt really excessive to me. I agree that many involved in the federation from the judges to the commentators are really prone to putting all their eggs in one basket (and it’s never worked—or at least it hasn’t since Michelle Kwan, so I’m not sure why they still do it lol). And that ends up putting too much pressure on that one skater when other countries have more than one to put pressure on. Like at the JGPF the US was like “hey look what we have” and Russia would just stare back with 4 girls. As for Alysa’s PCS, we can just agree to disagree since PCS are very subjective. I do think that she is improving artistically each year and I’m interested to see how she’s improved given everything she’s going through right now!

 

[moonvine]

I think that the problem is not so much tech versus artistry as it is with defining what "exceptional artistry" ought to mean in the first place. It is obvious what exceptional tech means. It means Nathan Chen doing 6 quads.

But I believe that we conflate "artistry" with looking pretty, moving gracefully, emoting to the music -- that sort of thing. I am all for pretty and graceful, but is it "art"? To me, I would think of someone like Toller Cranston who was able to create something unique in his performances.

This probably is asking too much of these young athletes, who have more important concerns (get all the way arround on that quad Salchow!) Still, I continue to be intrigued by the ISU's ruminations aboiut a "technical program" and an "artistic program" with slightly different judging criteria.

To me....artistry, true artistry... is a skater who can make me feel something (other than awe at the 5 quads, or happiness the skater has done well). Something like tears or goosebumps. It is a rare quality, much rarer than the ability to do 5 quads. And I don’t think it can be taught. Unfortunately it is also 1000% subjective..not objective as I mistakenly had typed.

 

[lariko]

Well, that didn’t take long... Mariah is the only watchable skater in US for me atm, maybe Braidie Tennell with a good program, now that Alysa is in an unknown state. They just appear slow and they neither jump, nor spin attractively. Alysa was awesome last year, but I haven’t seen anyone else in her age do anything similar in the States. They seem to be more focused on men there.

 

[readernick]

I don't follow the ladies that closely, but...

USFS *hyping* Mariah Bell? From an article in the Guardian? Ummmm, I don't think so. I like watching Mariah (I like it better when she skates Rohene programs) and I think she is polished and expressive.

I don't think the USFS is "stuck in the past" at all. . Geez Louise, a fed could not promote a skater any more than the USFS promotes Nathan. (I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm saying they do). The same folks are responsible for "promoting" the other disciplines, I believe. You play the hand you're dealt.

I agree with this. I like Mariah, although her programs this year aren't my cup of tea ( I usually love SLB choreography but COVID and social distancing have really dimmed her creative energy, or she can't effectively work remotely with skaters..I think her only good programs this year are the ones she made for Nathan) . I think the USFS is slightly favoring her, but it is logical. Who exactly should the USFS promote? They promote any skater with moderate success, and Mariah outscored many international skaters last year. There were the top 4 skaters ( Anna, Aliona, Rika and Sasha) and then everyone else and Bradie/ Mariah did a good job beating almost everyone else at most competitions. If someone else becomes a contender, maybe Alysa gets her 3As back or Amber Glenn rotates her 3A in competition USF will promote that skater. Really nothing shocking...

 

[Mathman]

They seem to be more focused on men there.

I don't know that they (the USFSA) are more focused on men; I think it's just that they happen to have an outstanding male skater right now (and a couple of others that audiences enjoy, such as Jason Brown). Not too long ago it seemed like they were "promoting" Ice Dance. No mystery -- they had Davis and White.

 

[NAOTMAA]

I don't know that they (the USFSA) are more focused on men; I think it's just that they happen to have an outstanding male skater right now (and a couple of others that audiences enjoy, such as Jason Brown). Not too long ago it seemed like they were "promoting" Ice Dance. No mystery -- they had Davis and White.

It was also around that time Dancing with the Stars was HUGE. They really thought they could connect the two and make ice dancing popular. And D/W being gold medal favorites looked like a sign from heaven, all the stars aligning. Even the ISU was convinced it was a winning plan and jumping on that wagon

 

[TallyT]

To me....artistry, true artistry... is a skater who can make me feel something (other than awe at the 5 quads, or happiness the skater has done well). Something like tears or goosebumps. It is a rare quality, much rarer than the ability to do 5 quads. And I don’t think it can be taught. Unfortunately it is also 1000% subjective..not objective as I mistakenly had typed.

True (for me it's that catch, or ache, at the back of the throat that is more than tears). Artistry and its sibling charisma simply can't be taught (Gracie Gold, for instance, had the latter in spades, whereas the current US ladies... not so much).

The USFSA is doing what little they can to stir up some sort of enthusiasm among fans for this year's Nationals.

That's it in a nutshell. It's pretty much an infomercial to try and get people to tune in and watch the coming competition. They will without a doubt run another one on Chen, where rightly or wrongly the flip will be argued.

 

[el henry]

It was also around that time Dancing with the Stars was HUGE. They really thought they could connect the two and make ice dancing popular. And D/W being gold medal favorites looked like a sign from heaven, all the stars aligning. Even the ISU was convinced it was a winning plan and jumping on that wagon

I'm not really understanding who "they" are? If it's USFS, I don't think "they" thought they could *make* ice dancing popular. Again I think they played the hand they were dealt. Davis and White were gold medal winners. They had winners' cred and great skill.

Also, DWTS doesn't just blindly accept some "assignment" from the USFS; the DWTS producers also chose both Meryl and Charlie for ratings reasons. (Look, they compete against each other! How cool! )

Ice Dancing requires incredible athletic and artistic skill and IMO, with the strength of the US ice dancers, would be great if it were more popular. I sure as heck don't blame USFS for trying