Artistry and learning from examples of greatness

[jenm]

Interesting thread.

To me, one of the ways that I find a skater artistic is being able to express the little moments in the program, the nuances, and elevate those. And for that I think that Yuna is an excellent example. You can literally pause every second of her performances and find them all beautiful. Also, her jumps become part of the artistic vision of the program and not as a separate entity. See Homage to Korea, Gershwin, Les Mis, Send in the clowns, Lark Ascending. Furthermore, being able to perform and savour the highs and lows of the music is one great artistic quality. Most programs today are quite monotonous and I understand that given the requirements and hitting levels but still. THere are only a few skaters who listen to the music.

I would put Satoko here as well but she lacks certain "bigness" to her skating as beautiful as it is. Rika is on her path to this. She already feels the music through her body. If she would put a little more expression on her face, she'd be perfect. Alena's presentation is mostly due to he superb skating skills but musicality and interpretation wise, I think not there yet atm.

 

[TontoK]

This is such an interesting perspective. In literary criticism, there is never-ending discussion of the "intentional fallacy" -- we don't give a rat's patootie about what the author intended to to accomplish or thought he was accomplishing (but didn't).

A million people find the Mona Lisa intriguing. But I don't. What marks should I give to the painting, and why? Must Leonardo da Vinci hope that I am not on the art show jury that day, or is there some reasonably objective sense in which I can say that this is a great work of art even though I personally am unmoved?

When I was watching the ABC TV coverage just now, I was completely swept away by the first ten seconds of Jason Brown's program. Something about the maturity of movement and command of his medium, from the instant he leaves his opening pose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNC-IL2I88g7&t=0m24s

No doubt other viewers were thinking, "Yeah, yeah, whatever, get on with your quad attempt and stop wasting my time."

Yet the judges have to give their marks. What should these be based on?

While I defend my right to like and dislike according to my personal preferences, and I wouldn't deny that right to others...

I think that to be a credible judge of anything requires some amount of expertise beyond the casual. I eat every day of my life, but I would be a terrible culinary critic - because I'm not so much into haute cuisine. I can appreciate the talent that goes into exquisite preparation and presentation, but most of the time, I'd be better suited for pizza delivery.

It's appropriate that the discussion is about "artisty" and not "components" because I don't think those are the same things.

 

[PyeongChang2018]

Interesting thread.

To me, one of the ways that I find a skater artistic is being able to express the little moments in the program, the nuances. And for that I think that Yuna is an excellent example. You can literally pause every second of her performances and find them all beautiful. Also, her jumps become part of the artistic vision of the program and not as a separate entity. See Homage to Korea, Gershwin, Les Mis, Send in the clowns, Lark Ascending. Furthermore, being able to perform and savour the highs and lows of the music is one great artistic quality. Most programs today are quite monotonous and I understand that given the requirements and hitting levels but still. THere are only a few skaters who listen to the music.

I would put Satoko here as well but she lacks certain "bigness" to her skating as beautiful as it is. Rika is on her path to this. She already feels the music through her body. If she would put a little more expression on her face, she'd be perfect. Alena's presentation is mostly due to he superb skating skills but musicality and interpretation wise, I think not there yet.

I agree with you on every single thing here!

 

[Jetta]

It's appropriate that the discussion is about "artisty" and not "components" because I don't think those are the same things.

But they are.

IJS tries to quantify artistry through the component marks. That’s what those pesky 1-10 numbers at the bottom of the protocols are for.

Skating Skills are not the same across all senior skaters. That is fact.

There are certain skaters who have an inherent ability to feel music, perform and move to it. It can be quantified- that’s what the IN, CO and PE marks are for. Judges should be awarding higher marks in those categories for those skaters, and it should have zero to do with their jump content. I feel it’s very possible for a skater to learn to feel and express the music, to cultivate musicality, but if it’s not consistently rewarded then there is no incentive to do it.

The problem arises when 9s are given out like candy for performances that clearly don’t warrant them. That’s where we are now at times. And I don’t blame it on IJS.

 

[lariko]

I took my mom to Kelowna, to Skate Canada this year. There, she saw Hanyu, and since then she’d been watching whatever YouTube offered her on figure skating.

But this is not about Hanyu, though as god is my witness, she adores the guy with the passion approaching that of the Japanese fans.

Another day, when we were chatting about figure skating, she told me, “You know, I did watch figure skating before.

It just popped into my memory, really strange. When I was a teen, they showed a skater on TV, and I saw him jump these huge jumps,and then he talked about wanting to go to the Olympics.

And for two weeks afterwards, I got up at six in the morning to go running, because I thought, ‘Wow, there is this guy my age, and he wants to be in the Olympics, and I want to be like him (my mom competed locally as a hurdler).’”

“You know,” she said, “I even remembered his name just now.”

I didn’t hold my breath—my mom is nearly seventy, and for a couple of months I was used to her referring to Hanyu as Nijinsky—but when I asked after the name, she said, “Nepela.”

Then she added, “Wonder if he ever made it into the Olympics.”

I told her, “Yup, he did.”

Thing is, I know what she means. I saw Uno in 2018 Olympics, and he made me want to live, fight, achieve. I feel the same when I see Trusova charge in again and again to Drakarys.

That’s what artistry is to me. It extends the extraordinary to those who are watching it, lifts them up, instead of making them feel smaller.

 

[PyeongChang2018]

While I defend my right to like and dislike according to my personal preferences, and I wouldn't deny that right to others...

I think that to be a credible judge of anything requires some amount of expertise beyond the casual. I eat every day of my life, but I would be a terrible culinary critic - because I'm not so much into haute cuisine. I can appreciate the talent that goes into exquisite preparation and presentation, but most of the time, I'd be better suited for pizza delivery.

It's appropriate that the discussion is about "artistry" and not "components" because I don't think those are the same things.

I'm in agreement with you. I think that in each of the many arts (i.e. film, theatre, music, dance, et cetera) there are groups of people who are truly Artists. I think Artists think a little differently than most people, thus they bring a quality to their work that isn't able to be recognized by merely being evaluated by component scores, a gross reduction of art in an attempt to make ethereal quality more objective.

 

[TontoK]

But they are.

IJS tries to quantify artistry through the component marks. That’s what those pesky 1-10 numbers at the bottom of the protocols are for.

Skating Skills are not the same across all senior skaters. That is fact.

There are certain skaters who have an inherent ability to feel music, perform and move to it. It can be quantified- that’s what the IN, CO and PE marks are for. Judges should be awarding higher marks in those categories for those skaters, and it should have zero to do with their jump content. I feel it’s very possible for a skater to learn to feel and express the music, to cultivate musicality, but if it’s not consistently rewarded then there is no incentive to do it.

The problem arises when 9s are given out like candy for performances that clearly don’t warrant them. That’s where we are now at times. And I don’t blame it on IJS.

No, I get what you're saying, I'm just not sure we're on the same page.

Take, for example, the skater I alluded to earlier. That skater may have good skating skills, good transitions and so forth. And yet, if we're left feeling nothing at the end... was it an artistic program? I'd say not, but I get where you're coming from.

As for IJS, how one feels in response to a program is very subjective, so I understand how and why they've tried to quantify it. But, for example, I find an old-school Angela Nicodinov layback spin to be far more artistic than a level four with all the contortions. I know I'm mixing levels and components, but you get the idea. What I find so artistically valuable about a spin like that is not rewarded.

Similarly, I may not find a program cluttered with many transitions as artistic as one that is more simply and purely delivered... but it will score better.

 

[Mathman]

Similarly, I may not find a program cluttered with many transitions as artistic as one that is more simply and purely delivered... but it will score better.

It's tricky. A program that is "cluttered" with transitions of exceptional variety and difficulty does deserve a high score in the Transitions component. That is exactly what is being measured. If all this busywork contributes nothing to the musical interpretation or choreography, then that should be reflected in those components.

I remember even back in the 6.0 days that skaters would be settling in on a long jump entry and then do a little twitch and bobble (I realize now that they were demonstrating various blade skills -- changing edge, etc. -- but the overall effect, to me, just detracted from the smooth flow of the program. Would the Sugar Plum Fairy or the Black Swan stop in the middle and shuffle her feet back and forth for no reason while wiggling her rear end (which is sometimes all you would see on TV because the camera shot did not show the feet).

One of my pet peeves with the IJS is the requirement of "commitment of the whole body"), especially for step sequences. Many skaters fulfill this bullet by exaggeratedly bobbing up and down from the waste looking like they are bobbing for apples.

To me, the problem is that SS and TR have nothing much to do with artistry (except that you must have good skating skills first in order to execute your choreography, etc. -- just like piano players must be able to hit the right notes before they can start making music).

Anyway, I have always supported the idea of replacing the five components with two: the technical component (current SS and TR) and the performance component (current CH, INT and Performance). Each would be worth 25% of the total segment score, with the Element scores still being worth 50% as it is now.

This might encourage the judges to evaluate more critically -- this skater has good technical skills but is weaker on artistry, so give him a 9.25 for the SS+TR component and 8.50 for the CH+INT+P/E component.

Also, it would somewhat address the complaints of sports purists that "artistry" is too subjective to be part of the scoring system in a serious sport. We could answer, well, it counts for only 25%, which isn't a bad compromise with the people who hold figure skating traditions dear, and who also enjoy a beautiful and emotionally satisfying experience in the performing arts.

 

[WeakAnkles]

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Really.

Plus I reserve the right to change my mind about the arty. And the farty. So to speak.

 

[Nadjell]

I honestly think it is something merely subjective. The only skaters who speak to me in this way are Yuna and Yuzuru. I rewatch their programs because I just enjoy them over and over again.

 

[TontoK]

Plus I reserve the right to change my mind about the arty. And the farty. So to speak.

LOL.

And now I will clomp around the ice like a bull moose on roller skates. But I will do it while Shastamananov's Elegy to a Lover's Broken Heart at Sundown for Viola and Bassoon in D Minor plays on the loudspeaker.

I'll expect ALL the components!

 

[anonymoose_au]

It's tricky. A program that is "cluttered" with transitions of exceptional variety and difficulty does deserve a high score in the Transitions component. That is exactly what is being measured. If all this busywork contributes nothing to the musical interpretation or choreography, then that should be reflected in those components.

For sure...Like objectively I can see it's difficult to do, but it often looks frenetic!

I remember even back in the 6.0 days that skaters would be settling in on a long jump entry and then do a little twitch and bobble (I realize now that they were demonstrating various blade skills -- changing edge, etc. -- but the overall effect, to me, just detracted from the smooth flow of the program. Would the Sugar Plum Fairy or the Black Swan stop in the middle and shuffle her feet back and forth for no reason while wiggling her rear end (which is sometimes all you would see on TV because the camera shot did not show the feet).

I always despair about the loss of a good old fashioned jump ride out. There's something beautiful about a skater landing a jump and doing a glorious glide out! But a lot of the time now to get the GOE you need to do some sort of transition and honestly a lot of the time it looks more like a balance check rather than a purposeful movement.

Anyway, I have always supported the idea of replacing the five components with two: the technical component (current SS and TR) and the performance component (current CH, INT and Performance). Each would be worth 25% of the total segment score, with the Element scores still being worth 50% as it is now.

This might encourage the judges to evaluate more critically -- this skater has good technical skills but is weaker on artistry, so give him a 9.25 for the SS+TR component and 8.50 for the CH+INT+P/E component.

Ooo I like this idea!! It would certainly make scoring for skaters like Liza T fairer. Her SS and Transitions are nothing to write home about, but man can she interpret a program!