- Joined
- Mar 21, 2005
Michelle all the way for me
Best Ladies' figure skater of all time? Take 2
- Thread starter slutskayafan21
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
But, seriously, does one hot season count as greatness? If that's true, then we should add Sarah Hughes... (that's a joke by the way...) And to assume that Tara would've been able to continue her growth in the sport is a stretch... But I would add her to a greatest at one moment in time list... behind Oksana and before Sarah... But that's just me...
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
I would rate Tara above Sarah for sure. Sarah does not even come close to Tara's achievements. Tara also beat a clean Michelle to win the Olympics, Sarah won her Olympic gold by virtue of mop up duty.
Oksana vs Tara I am not sure, Tara has more achievements then her also, both were blips as far as their longevity, but Oksana had more impact on the sport.
So for me:
Oksana = Tara ??
------big gap------
------gap continues-----
Sarah Hughes
Tara's Olympic free skate did not even come close to Sarah's, other than her ability to complete jumps. That's what I'll remember.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
Nah... I'm no Tara fan but Hughes wasn't even in her league. Don't get me wrong, her skate at the 02 olympics while awesome still wasn't as great as Tara's 98 skate... she was simply the able to pull it off when others faltered. Tara was hottest thing on ice for four minutes and she desered to win... (as painful as that is for me to admit...) Hughes' medal could've (and probably should've - but I'm biased...) gone to another.
The biggest problem I have with Tara being placed in this group is that people place her here based on one skate vs. her body of work. The "youngest ever" thing is annoying too because it doesn't really mean anything other than she was the youngest... It could simply be adjective use though that I struggle with... maybe if it were: toughest, most driven, etc. but youngest... just means she won before she could drive.
The biggest problem I have with Tara being placed in this group is that people place her here based on one skate vs. her body of work. The "youngest ever" thing is annoying too because it doesn't really mean anything other than she was the youngest... It could simply be adjective use though that I struggle with... maybe if it were: toughest, most driven, etc. but youngest... just means she won before she could drive.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
That is a matter of opinion.
The biggest thing I will remember is this:
Tara Lipinski:
-Olympic Champion with solid 2nd place in short, 1st place in long. Won gold over clean Kwan, a very rare and exceptional feat.
-U.S Champion in 1997, 2nd at U.S Nationals in 1998. So in short prime was either 1st and 2nd at U.S Nationals.
-GP final Champion in both 1997 and 1998.
-World Champion in 1997, only Worlds appearance in prime, takes home the gold medal.
contrast that to:
Sarah Hughes:
-Olympic Champion by barely coming 4th in the short program overall several others with ordinals ranging from 4th (only three 4th place votes) to 10th; then coming 1st in long program with ordinals ranging from 1st to 4th.
-2nd at U.S Nationals in 2001, 3rd at U.S Nationals in 2002. So in her own 2-
year prime was either 2nd or 3rd at U.S Nationals
-3rd at 2001 Worlds, only world medal.
-3rd at 2001 and 2002 GP final. Highest finishes ever there.
So there you have it. No comparision. One wins a World title, 2 GP finals, and a U.S title. The other never does better then 3rd ever at Worlds or the GP final, and is either 2nd or even 3rd at U.S Nationals. One wins the Olympics in the grandest fashion possible, the other needs 3 better skaters to self destruct to win
and still could easily have been 3rd or 4th overall, with how close her ordinals were to different outcomes, and was very lucky for each split and ordinal rule to work in her favor to win. One beats the great Kwan everytime Kwan put a foot wrong, and even one major time when Kwan didnt really put a foot wrong; the other loses many times to Kwan and Slutskaya with them making mistakes, and cant even dream of ever beating one should she not.
If I did an all time ranking list wherever Tara is, Sarah would be atleast 30 spots behind, gold medal and all. I would not put Tara in my top 10 quite for the reasons Kwanford Wife said, and I dont believe she belongs on a poll like this for the reasons Kwanford Wife said, but I would definitely put her in my 11-20 group somewhere though. Sarah would be nowhere near that.
Sarah skated with more grace. Though I just watched Tara's LP again on youtube and the landings didn't seem quite as lanky and awkward as I remember. Maybe it was the camera angle of the US broadcasts or something. I don't really care to argue with you since no one ever listens on these kinds of topics. Sarah Hughes "30 spots" behind Tara Lipinski... what a fantasy world...
:disagree:
You could not like her, that is your opinion.
But what you have said is very disrespectful. I think this is called bashing.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Tara has far better posture and basic skating. Tara only occasionaly cheated the triple loop-triple loop, and even then rarely, Sarah was a chronic jump cheater, and while Tara also flutzed her lutzes and also didnt get great height on her jumps, her jumps were still overall far higher quality then Sarah. She was far more expressive and had much more flair and personality out there. Sarah had nice spins, footwork, spirals, probably slightly better then Tara's, but she didnt have the spark to her presentation, the quality of jumps, or the speed and dynamic quality of Tara.
30 spots behind a fantasy world? I would be willing to bet money any skating historian who listed the 100 best lady skaters ever would have Sarah a minimum of 20 spots behind Tara, wherever that is. I think 20 spots minimum, 40 maximum, my estimate is around 30. I would be willing to bet money that any skating historian would have it atleast 20 spots difference though. Like I said that will be most remembered is that Tara showed she could win other big events in her short stint at top, Sarah did not so her win by comparision is much more flukish in nature, and the circumstances of how she pulled it off also pale in comparision.
The sad part is there are various levels of bashing, and many of them happen on a daily basis. The burger flipping comment is pretty bad but it's also goofy - who would believe that? But "someone" can constantly say Sarah Hughes was a joke and that's ok? Sorry, I don't buy into that. It's just bashing more cleverly disguised.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
That's because we're smarter than most people... teehee
(as she ducks the rotten tomatoes flying at her head...)But seriously, I don't think Sarah herself would say she was in the top thirty of all time... (Tara probably would think of herself in the top two, but that's what makes her Tara...) And if she did make it that far up, she'd be stunned... Sarah has always been clear on that she needed the 3/3, she needed for Michelle and Irinia to make errors and that she had nothing to lose.
And she pulled it off. Yay for her! That's what makes the Olympics special... But there's no reason for fans to get all in a tiff because she isn't listed on the greatest of all time list...
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2006
I have to admit I'm thoroughly confused - I'm seeing posters arguing against POSITIVE comments about Tara by slutskayafan21? Thanks, slutskayafan21, for promoting Tara from a 21-30 placement (remember?) to the 11-20 placement category!!But, I don't agree that Tara's feat of being the youngest female National, World, and Olympic Champion ever is meaningless beyond that fact. I believe that the sheer NUMBER of young girls reaching U.S. Nationals younger than 16 now compared to years prior to, say 1994, is due to both Michelle and Tara. Would we be seeing the Bebe Laings, the Caroline Zhangs, the Rachel Flatts,
etc., of today if there had been no Kwan or Lipinski? I think not. I remember hearing after Tara won her OGM in Nagano about the number of little girls signing up for skating lessons in the Houston club that she had started with, tripling in a very short time. Michelle and then Tara were 13 when they hit Senior Nationals for the first time. The fact that our two top ladies in '97 and '98 were both 14-16 was unprecedented and delightful. That will never happen again, unless the ISU's age rule is repealed.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
But, I don't agree that Tara's feat of being the youngest female National, World, and Olympic Champion ever is meaningless beyond that fact. I believe that the sheer NUMBER of young girls reaching U.S. Nationals younger than 16 now compared to years prior to, say 1994, is due to both Michelle and Tara. Would we be seeing the Bebe Laings, the Caroline Zhangs, the Rachel Flatts,
etc., of today if there had been no Kwan or Lipinski? I think not. I remember hearing after Tara won her OGM in Nagano about the number of little girls signing up for skating lessons in the Houston club that she had started with, tripling in a very short time. Michelle and then Tara were 13 when they hit Senior Nationals for the first time. The fact that our two top ladies in '97 and '98 were both 14-16 was unprecedented and delightful. That will never happen again, unless the ISU's age rule is repealed.
No, the tiff is around who's better Tara or Sarah... (tara if we must make a comparsion...)
And I'm not saying that her age is insignificant... what I'm saying is that she other qualities that I think were cooler than her being 15 like her drive, ambition, guts, etc. Young is the least remarkable thing about her IMO. That's like saying oh yeah, KW is tall... yup but I'm also brilliant and that's better.
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2006
KW - Whaaaaat?
This thread is about a voting poll on the greatest lady skaters. It has covered several sub-topics. I was not addressing the Tara vs. Sarah thing.
Tara's age during her accomplishments - the LEAST remarkable thing?
Hardly. Nobody has ever commented on who the tallest Olympic Champion , World Champion, or National Champion was. It simply never mattered. It doesn't matter in any athletic feat. But the youngest ________ has always been a subject of widespread conversation - in ANY sport. Tennis, Golf, Baseball, Football, etc.
And, it inspires other very young aspiring athletes.
By the way, people - The poster who posts the last word in an argument - is NOT automatically the winner of the argument. If more people would realize that, they wouldn't feel the need to keep posting on and on and on and on and...............
This thread is about a voting poll on the greatest lady skaters. It has covered several sub-topics. I was not addressing the Tara vs. Sarah thing.
Tara's age during her accomplishments - the LEAST remarkable thing?
Hardly. Nobody has ever commented on who the tallest Olympic Champion , World Champion, or National Champion was. It simply never mattered. It doesn't matter in any athletic feat. But the youngest ________ has always been a subject of widespread conversation - in ANY sport. Tennis, Golf, Baseball, Football, etc.
And, it inspires other very young aspiring athletes.
By the way, people - The poster who posts the last word in an argument - is NOT automatically the winner of the argument. If more people would realize that, they wouldn't feel the need to keep posting on and on and on and on and...............
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
KW - Whaaaaat?
This thread is about a voting poll on the greatest lady skaters. It has covered several sub-topics. I was not addressing the Tara vs. Sarah thing.
Tara's age during her accomplishments - the LEAST remarkable thing?
Hardly. Nobody has ever commented on who the tallest Olympic Champion , World Champion, or National Champion was. It simply never mattered. It doesn't matter in any athletic feat. But the youngest ________ has always been a subject of widespread conversation - in ANY sport. Tennis, Golf, Baseball, Football, etc.
And, it inspires other very young aspiring athletes.
By the way, people - The poster who posts the last word in an argument - is NOT automatically the winner of the argument. If more people would realize that, they wouldn't feel the need to keep posting on and on and on and on and...............
Ok. That's funny... never mind about the height thing (used as an analogy, not to be taken literal) - I shall keep my opinions to myself about what did or did not make Tara remarkable. Fine, she was young. Woohoo!And since I was the last post (because I know you wouldn't post again - just in a vain attempt to win a losing arguement) I'm right. Everybody else is wrong. Michelle Kwan is the greatest of all time. So there. Close the thread.
(dagnabit... it simply doesn't work that way does it???)
Well, no one is now allowed to compete at the Olympics at the age Tara and Oksana were. So "youngest Oly champ" is a pretty flimsy title because of that fact. Tara was a shooting star just like Sarah was. She had a couple more golds and important titles among them, but still not a long track record. People seem to be playing "what if" saying if she hadn't gotten injured and quit, etc etc. Though they all seem to quit after OGM, don't they? Tara had more raw ability than Sarah, obviously. But ultimately skating (and even winning) is about more than just raw ability. They both brought it on that night and both won OGM. Many very talented skaters crumble under that kind of pressure.
As for "best of all time", which is the thread topic, I'm not sure many people here are qualified to state it with any certainty. I'm not. We could vote on "best of our time," and it would be Michelle Kwan, if she is still included in "our time." I wonder how the champions of decades ago would have done under CoP, or a more competitive environment, 3/3s etc. Who can say?
As for "best of all time", which is the thread topic, I'm not sure many people here are qualified to state it with any certainty. I'm not. We could vote on "best of our time," and it would be Michelle Kwan, if she is still included in "our time." I wonder how the champions of decades ago would have done under CoP, or a more competitive environment, 3/3s etc. Who can say?
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2004
I voted for the Kween.
