but then?

[roller girl]

but why she can't have the baby and then wouldn't still competing together? I know It's just a dream but would be great!!! I hope that they think the same that I in a future.
I WILL MISS THEY A LOT!!!!!!!

 

[Evdokia]

I think Peter Tchernishev is something about 30+??? That's not the youngest age even for ice dancing. So I guess he doesn't want to miss another season waiting if Naomi will be prepared to come back.
And Naomi probably wants to stay with her baby once it will be born. Amateur figure skating isn't a very family-favouring sport with all the travelling involved.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

2006 is the big one. There will be many skaters bowing out of competitive skating, and age is a factor. to make a mark in 2006 will mean a lot of work and definitely now until the Olys.

Joe

 

[berthes ghost]

Women have done it (rodnina, katia, etc...) but retraining after a baby has gotta be the toughest thing ever. Maybe she just doesn't want to put herself thru all that just to end up 8th at worlds again. At least Rodnina and Katia had gold possibilities to focus on.

 

[STL_Blues_fan]

I don't know what kind of possibilities Tatyana Navka had when she decided to team up again with Roman Kostamarov. I am not sure they were even a top 3 Russian team. And look at her know - she a contender for a gold!

But it could be Noami's frustration with not being able to move up in the ISu ranks and the incredible success by Belbin and Agasto more than anything.

Women come back after having babies all the time - in all sports. Look at Marion Jones - wouldn't you think her level of training is just as high (if not higher) as for an ice dancer???

Yana

 

[SusanBeth]

Babies have a tendency to take over your life for quite a while. I know women can come back. I just don't think there are many women who would want to go through that. Also, doesn't Naomi still need some surgery to repair her injury? I doubt she would have that done while she is pregnant.

At any rate, congratulations and best wishes to them all. It seems skating's baby boom just keeps going.

 

[Ptichka]

I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that the conventional wisdom in sport is that the woman becomes physically stronger afte childbirth.

 

[Grgranny]

I sure haven't heard of women becoming stronger after child-birth. It may be true but I sure hadn't heard it.

 

[SusanBeth]

In my experience, it was only true in one sense. With all the baby necessities and a growing baby to carry around, my arms definitely became stronger. I can't see that as being all that beneficial to an ice skater.

 

[Tonichelle]

we're talking two totally different cultures here.. Katia said in her book that in Russia when she was growing up she was raised by her grandmother... so after Daria was born there was no question as to whether she should skate or not

however it's normal for an American Woman to take some "maternity leave" before and after the baby is born... it's just two totally different mentalities

personally I agree with Naomi... she should concentrate on being a mom.

 

[guinevere]

Naomi has been so obviously ambivalent about skating, that I'm sure this was a no-brainer for her. Instead of coming back (again) after injury and even more time off the ice, with the last competitive memory being withdrawing at Nationals, she can go forward and focus on a totally new, and completely positive, direction in her life. I think she is probably relieved to be finished with her skating career, and she never considered returning to competitive skating after having the baby. She also probably didn't want Peter to hang on "in case".

guinevere

 

[CartDi]

I'm glad Naomi has found happiness, but then I feel really bad for Peter. I've always thought that he was quite a strong skater.

 

[JonnyCoop]

I don't know what kind of possibilities Tatyana Navka had when she decided to team up again with Roman Kostamarov. I am not sure they were even a top 3 Russian team. And look at her know - she a contender for a gold!


Yana

Yes, but IMO the "unwritten rules" which seem to govern which couples succeed in ice dancing and which do not do not seem to apply to the Russian couples. Russian couples spend about 1/3 less time than couples from other countries having to work their way through the ranks, wheras couples from everywhere else, in most cases, have to wait through years of "waiting their turn" and waiting for other couples to retire. In the case of Navka, she was an established presence before she teamed up with Kostamorov and by all accounts was a popular dancer amidst the "inner circle", so I personally do not find it surprising that she's a contender now; when she came back, the powers-that-be probably wanted to elevate her as soon as possible.

Regarding Naomi & Peter: It'd be nice, but I don't see it happening. Logically, these two should be in Worlds medal contention by now, but IMO one of the reasons that they are not is because they've missed what, 3 Grand Prix seasons in a row now? IMO it is extremely important to do the Grand Prix in dance because it gives the judges an idea where to put you in the overall picture; since they've missed so many in a row already, their ranking seems to stagnate. Essentially, if Naomi & Peter were to come back after Naomi gives birth, they'd have to spend even MORE time working their way through the ranks. When you factor in that Peter is 32 years old, the whole thing becomes rather a "Why bother?"situation.

 

[STL_Blues_fan]

Yes, but IMO the "unwritten rules" which seem to govern which couples succeed in ice dancing and which do not do not seem to apply to the Russian couples. Russian couples spend about 1/3 less time than couples from other countries having to work their way through the ranks, wheras couples from everywhere else, in most cases, have to wait through years of "waiting their turn" and waiting for other couples to retire. In the case of Navka, she was an established presence before she teamed up with Kostamorov and by all accounts was a popular dancer amidst the "inner circle", so I personally do not find it surprising that she's a contender now; when she came back, the powers-that-be probably wanted to elevate her as soon as possible.

.

Please, isn't it time to give up those sad and really old conspiracy theories? Navka "paid her dues" just fine - when she started skating in the seniors there were Usova and Zhulin, Platov and Grishuk, Lobacheva and Averbukh, Krylova and Ovsianinkov - just to name a few. Most likely, nobody in the so called inner circle even heard of her (outside of Russia). Throw in her two or three partners into the mix too. Established presence? Please.

I am just curious who are "the powers that be" are you talking about?

On the same note, Averbukh and Lobacheva were skating for almost ten years together before becoming Russian champs and medaling at worlds. Annisina and Peizerat, as well as Bourne and Kraatz were skating together about the same length of time - yet they were national champs for many years. Who spent more time paying their dues??

Navka has been skating longer than Naomi and Peter so what is it about 1/3 less time? She had to wait for a lot of top teams to retire before becoming a contender. Naomi and Peter were virtually unchallanged for 5 or 6 years in US but didn't come even close to worlds podium.

And how about Belbin and Agasto's rapid rise to the top? Or is it because they have a Russian coach that they got to advance so quickly?? Would you still want them to pay their dues for a few more seasons? Or do you think their success is b/c Peter and Naomi were out for the season? Just remember that B&A beat L&C at 4CC last year.

Let's just face it - everybody pays their dues. Even Russians, believe it or not. Navka paid hers probably more than others.

Yana

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yana = Fascinating thoughts on "paying their dues".

My question is not Dance specifically but in Dance, the competitions seem very subjective because the teams 1-10 are in reality very close. It's like downhill skiing where .0000l difference can win the gold. However, downhill skiing is a clear cut race and Dance is the consensus of 7-9 judges with real differences among them.

Zhulin once said that the Americans (Naomi and Peter) do not know how to play the game ! Zhulin was writing a book about figure skating where he was going to 'tell all'. But I have not heard anything about that book. Anyone know of this?

So the phrases 'paying their dues' and 'playing the game' remain not clear to me and maybe others.

Joe

 

[euterpe]

Then I guess Belbin/Agosto just "play the game" better than L/T ever did?

 

[STL_Blues_fan]

Yana = Fascinating thoughts on "paying their dues".

So the phrases 'paying their dues' and 'playing the game' remain not clear to me and maybe others.

Joe

Joe, my definition of "paying the dues" - directly as it pertains to Jonny Coop's post (and his view that Russian dancers don't "pay" as much as others): to stick around in the shadows and working hard in the meantime until those ahead of you retire. Then, you advance. How far?? I don't know. I hope it's due to hard work and talent, and not how well you "play the game".

I just wanted to point out that she has been skating for a long time, and that she did not advance overnight. I don't think she had that much advantage coming back. I am not sure if Zhulin was necessary an asset. Because, if he knows how to play the game, then how come he was always behind G&P?

I would love to read Zhulin's book though (if it ever gets written).

And, yes - do Agasto and Belbin know how to play the game???

I would like to think that it's their talent that advanced them, naive me!

Yana

 

[gkelly]

I just wanted to point out that she has been skating for a long time, and that she did not advance overnight. I don't think she had that much advantage coming back.

Agreed. Navka was 5th and 7th in the world in 1994 and '95 with Samvel Gezalian, then got bumped back to 14th and 10th with Nikolai Morozov in 1997 and '98, so a year off and a partner switch lost her ground. Of course, this was representing Belarus.

Even when she switched to Kostomarov and Russia in 1999, it still took several years to get firmly entrenched in the top 10, much less into medal contention, and much of that rise was by attrition. The year off for the baby didn't help.

I am not sure if Zhulin was necessary an asset. Because, if he knows how to play the game, then how come he was always behind G&P?

Usova & Zhulin were behind Grishuk & Platov only in 1994; before that, they were always ahead. But almost always behind Klimova & Ponomarenko.

 

[lulu]

Zhulin's book sounds likeit could be quite interesting

The title could be "The Three Women of Zhulin's place"

 

[JonnyCoop]

First off, let me clarify that when I referred to "paying dues", I was talking about on the WORLDS level, which I admittedly did not state in my original post.

"Conspiracy theory" (not my wording) may be a bit extreme, but one can call it what they like. A look at Worlds dance placings in the last 20 years would strongly indicate that couples from Russia/USSR would certainly seem to get noticed and spend less time making international progress than couples from, for example, Finland, Lithuania, Hungary, and several other nations. Are ALL Russian couples automatically THAT much better than couples from elsewhere? ALL of them? Doubtful. Rahkamo & Kokko, the Finns, were actually once told by an ISU official, "Sorry, you come from the wrong country" following a 20th-place showing at the 1988 Worlds that was considered by many knowledgable people to be MANY places below where they should have been.

In regards to my referring to Tatiana Navka as an "established presence", which seemed to be disupted -- Prior to her current teaming with Kostamorov, Navka had made 5 Worlds and 2 Olympic appearances. Hardly an unknown. I would consider that, to a point, to be fairly established. Also, this current partnership has gone from 12th in 2001 [Sidebar: I was at the 2001 Worlds and could not figure out for the life of me why they were placed that high] to a probable 1st (no worse than 2nd) in 4 seasons. (5 if you count their first partnership). They are at least even, ranking wise, with Denkova/Staviyisky (8 years together), and ahead of Grushina/Goncharov (at least 11 years together), Winkler/Lohse (together at least 14 seasons), Deloebel/Schoenfelder (at least 9) and Chait/Sakhnovsky (also at least 9). In a sport supposedly based on the principle of "Wait your turn", it seems some have to wait longer than others. Perhaps for Navka it's a long wait, but not for Navka/Kostamorov as a unit. Usova/Zhulin, Klimova/Ponomarenko, and Gritshuk/Platov didn't have to wait long to get into the top 5, either; they were all pretty much in it at their 1st Worlds. So the supposed "wait your turn" rule (and this is not a rule I made up, people have been saying it for decades) would not seem to apply to Russians.

Regarding Belbin/Agosto: Yes, every now and then a non-Russian couple rises quickly. Bourne & Kraatz did, too. I never said it DOESN'T happen. Nor do I feel, nor did I say, that everyone has to spend 10 years outside the top 5 before they get into it. It is a bit odd, in general, however, that Worlds standings have shown many cases where established couples (by this I mean couples with 3, 4, 5 or more Worlds appearances) keep getting mired in the same basic slot while Russian couples either debut ahead of them or vault ahead of them if they were behind them the previous year. Again -- are ALL Russian couples ALWAYS that much better? Again -- doubtful. And it seems like every time there's a season coming up where the Russians might not get on the podium, as if by magic, there's another one! Everyone else, it seems, can just wait even longer.

I'm not saying that the Russian dance couples are untalented and/or always overrated. Bestemianova/Bukin, Usova/Zhulin, Krylova/Ovsiannakov were all terrific. Even Lobacheva/Averbukh, who I admittedly was never a fan of, were outstanding in Salt Lake City. (I am omitting Gritshuk/Platov because IMO that just opens a whole new can of worms. Please let's not do that. ) What I AM saying is, basically, I feel a couple seems to get better attention and more respect if they're from Russia. It's pretty hard to doubt that.