Caroline Zhang's 2009-10 season
- Thread starter Spun Silver
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
says who? I am worried (as Tim Gunn would say).
I'm guessing lakeshore/redshirt/fiercemao/geisha (and goodness knows how many other names on other boards) got the info from Li Mingzhu's official blog:
http://blog.sina.com.cn/limingzhublog
The latest entry is dated last Sunday, and a Babelfish translation of it states that "at present, her [Caroline's] condition is not very good". Details of Caroline's injury are also mentioned, but I have no idea how accurate the translation is.
feraina, calling for help, please!
http://blog.sina.com.cn/limingzhublog
The latest entry is dated last Sunday, and a Babelfish translation of it states that "at present, her [Caroline's] condition is not very good". Details of Caroline's injury are also mentioned, but I have no idea how accurate the translation is.
feraina, calling for help, please!
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
I used the translation software as well. The problem is that "condition" has several meanings. It can mean health ( illness, injury ), it can mean physical conditioning ( strength, endurance, speed ), or it can mean the progress of her training.
Likewise "not very good" can mean bad, but it can also mean good, ( just not extremely good ).
Maybe someone who reads Chinese can help us.
Likewise "not very good" can mean bad, but it can also mean good, ( just not extremely good ).
Maybe someone who reads Chinese can help us.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2008
A rough translation.. (sorry, my Chinese leaves much to be desired, even though I'm Chinese).
I have more news to share with everybody - I will be with Caroline Zhang as her coach for her third season as a senior. Are you surprised? Life is like that, we can't guess what will happen next, it looks like my teacher-student relationship with Caroline has not yet come to an end.
Actually, like I've said before, changing coaches is commonly seen overseas. Maybe she and her new coach have not enjoyed such good cooperation as anticipated, and with the 2010 Vancouver games imminent, and after careful consideration, she and her family members decided that resuming training with me would be a better choice.
Caroline will be participating in TEB and Skate Canada. Until TEB, there is only about three weeks of preparation time. At this point, her condition (the Chinese word used just means condition, it doesn't really specify what kind) is not very good, and it has to do partially with the coaching change, as there is a need to spend some extra effort in adapting. In another aspect, there is some decline in her condition as she gets older, and this is affected by her knee injury.
I have more news to share with everybody - I will be with Caroline Zhang as her coach for her third season as a senior. Are you surprised? Life is like that, we can't guess what will happen next, it looks like my teacher-student relationship with Caroline has not yet come to an end.
Actually, like I've said before, changing coaches is commonly seen overseas. Maybe she and her new coach have not enjoyed such good cooperation as anticipated, and with the 2010 Vancouver games imminent, and after careful consideration, she and her family members decided that resuming training with me would be a better choice.
Caroline will be participating in TEB and Skate Canada. Until TEB, there is only about three weeks of preparation time. At this point, her condition (the Chinese word used just means condition, it doesn't really specify what kind) is not very good, and it has to do partially with the coaching change, as there is a need to spend some extra effort in adapting. In another aspect, there is some decline in her condition as she gets older, and this is affected by her knee injury.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
Thank you for the translation, Liketotally. 
Maybe we will know more as TEB approaches.
Maybe we will know more as TEB approaches.
Thanks for posting the link to the blog entry.
"liketotally" did a great job. I'll add a little more.
Li actually said that between working with Caroline again and TEB, there are only three weeks!
(How come? Haven't we heard rumors all summer that she switched back? From Li's blog it sounds like they only got back together again last week or something!)
Li was saying how one reason why Caroline's condition isn't good is due to the coaching change, and the other is due to the fact that as she gets older her condition is sliding, in addition she has been having a knee injury.
(I think it's obvious from looking at photos that puberty is catching up with Caroline, and she's not looking very fit. She used to be thin as a rail and she probably could eat whatever she wanted, and now it's not like that anymore but the habits are hard to change...)
Li goes on to say that in the following days of training, we have to get her footwork to increase in power and speed, otherwise we fear that it would give everyone the impression that nothing is improving. Whether she can represent the U.S. to participate in the Olympics, right now it is still an unknown. This depends on how well she does at the U.S. National's, and also on the GP series on the whole.
(Well, at least they seem to be aware of what her most serious problems are and are trying to do something about it. But last year at this time they were also talking about her speed being the main problem, and it didn't really improve... Over all, not a very happy blog entry. :no
"liketotally" did a great job. I'll add a little more.
Li actually said that between working with Caroline again and TEB, there are only three weeks!
(How come? Haven't we heard rumors all summer that she switched back? From Li's blog it sounds like they only got back together again last week or something!)
Li was saying how one reason why Caroline's condition isn't good is due to the coaching change, and the other is due to the fact that as she gets older her condition is sliding, in addition she has been having a knee injury.
(I think it's obvious from looking at photos that puberty is catching up with Caroline, and she's not looking very fit. She used to be thin as a rail and she probably could eat whatever she wanted, and now it's not like that anymore but the habits are hard to change...)
Li goes on to say that in the following days of training, we have to get her footwork to increase in power and speed, otherwise we fear that it would give everyone the impression that nothing is improving. Whether she can represent the U.S. to participate in the Olympics, right now it is still an unknown. This depends on how well she does at the U.S. National's, and also on the GP series on the whole.
(Well, at least they seem to be aware of what her most serious problems are and are trying to do something about it. But last year at this time they were also talking about her speed being the main problem, and it didn't really improve... Over all, not a very happy blog entry. :no
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- Joined
- Dec 7, 2005
Thanks for the translation. Caroline's outlook for this season sounds pretty depressing. I am surprised that her coach would blog details of Caroline's condition (even though it may be the truth) for everyone to see. Whatever happened to the privacy clause.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
From the context I gather 'Condition" to mean her preparedness level of TEB. If I were Li, I would have Caroline withdraw from that event, perhaps both GP. She does not need all the extra stress. Caroline has had a rough summer and should be focusing on Nationals and making the olympic team, but being ready for a grand prix event. Since Caroline has had a documented inujry, she has a valid exuse.
at Li for saying Caroline's condition is sliding as she is getting older (she's a whole 16 years old.) I'm sure the injury has been the biggest obstacle more than anything else. Didn't she have a partial ACL tear? I'm assuming that's no joke. Puberty is a healthy, normal occurrence that everyone goes through. I don't see how going through puberty can be equated to a lack of fitness. You can still be in great physical shape even if you aren't a prepubescent, short, rail thin kid anymore. I think Caroline looks quite good, and it is understandable that she may need some more time to shake off the rust from her knee injury. I'm not expecting any miracle improvements with her weaker jump technique and lack of speed, but I think she can at least get to where she was a season ago. Maybe it will be a little harder for her with her crazy jumping technique as she gets taller (she's 5'4" now? wow), but people were saying that last year, and Caroline still managed to get all the jumps down by the end of the season.
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It's moments like this that I wish I were a fan of swimming or tennis. There, size and strength are assets. For most swimming events, the best competitors are tall and solidly built. Female swimmers are typically nearly six feet tall. These days, many female tennis players are over six feet tall. I'll bet none of them think of growing up as being attacked by the puberty monster. Or basketball! There's a sport of queens. But alas, none of those sports are done to music....so I remain loyal to skating.
I understand the concept of torque and see why it's useful for a female skater to be under five feet tall and as close to, say, eighty pounds as possible to do triple jumps. But it deeply bothers me to think that a girl loses her mojo by growing up. I love skating for its art and musicality as well as its jumps. Those come with maturity and increased understanding. Also, strength isn't just the ability to twirl in the air, and age often gives girls greater power and smoother flow of movement--think of Dorothy Hamill, Yuka Sato, or Irina Slutskaya, none of whom were pixies. Sometimes I wish the skating federations would declare a moratorium on all triple (and quad) jumps for, say, four years. I know, I know: pigs will fly first. But I hate to see these little girls ground up in the gears of skating. It makes me feel vaguely guilty about loving skating so much.
I understand the concept of torque and see why it's useful for a female skater to be under five feet tall and as close to, say, eighty pounds as possible to do triple jumps. But it deeply bothers me to think that a girl loses her mojo by growing up. I love skating for its art and musicality as well as its jumps. Those come with maturity and increased understanding. Also, strength isn't just the ability to twirl in the air, and age often gives girls greater power and smoother flow of movement--think of Dorothy Hamill, Yuka Sato, or Irina Slutskaya, none of whom were pixies. Sometimes I wish the skating federations would declare a moratorium on all triple (and quad) jumps for, say, four years. I know, I know: pigs will fly first. But I hate to see these little girls ground up in the gears of skating. It makes me feel vaguely guilty about loving skating so much.
But Olympia part of the reason Zhang is likely having trouble is due to her own bad jumping technique. I mean Mao and Yu-na are both taller than Caroline. Shizuka was hardly little either. Neither is Kostner.
Zhang was told to fix her jumping issues years ago, precisely for this reason.
Zhang was told to fix her jumping issues years ago, precisely for this reason.
But with Caroline it's not just her technique. She's not naturally endowed with the kind of spring in her jump like Sato, Hamill, or Slutskaya. Maybe she twists so much because that's the only way she can generate enough torque to land a triple in the little time she has in the air.
Puberty would be great if it gave her more power and speed, but so far it has given her neither and moreover made her jumps lower and rotating slower. Not everyone reacts to puberty the same way.
I think Li was not trying to say the injury is the *the reason* for her decline in condition. She said her condition has declined with age, and moreover there was also this injury. The injury is an additional problem, and even implied to be secondary to her decline in condition.
Frank Carroll is famously to have said that female skaters have the best strength to bodyweight ratio at 13; sad but probably true. Caroline's jump didn't look so low relative to her size at 13, now they really do. And remember how unbelievably high Mao's jumps were at 13? Now at 18 they are good but no longer extroardinarily high (though she's improved in many other innumerable ways).
Mao, Yu-Na and Caroline are all listed as being 5 feet 4 inches tall. Caroline is probably a little taller than that and is not yet done growing, whereas Mao and Yu-Na are.
I think Caroline should withdraw from TEB, too, but how will that affect her chances to make the Olympic team? She's hardly anyone's golden girl, so she really needs to go all out to make her case. And somehow, even if Caroline were walking around with a limp, I think she'd absolutely loathe to pull out of any competition. Someone once said that Caroline seems to have a little bit of the crazee in her, and I couldn't agree more. You need a bit of that crazeeness to be a great competitor. :thumbsup:
I don't think any of the top U.S. ladies can risk withdrawing from a competition at this point, and every performance is going to be on the selection committee's mind, whether it is part of the official formula or not.
One must consider whether a no-show is "better" than a bad/potentially embarrassing showing.
I agree though, unless you are physically incapable of competing, it could only help to at least try.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
As a skater, I can tell you from personal experience that your suggested theory that her technique "helps" her rotate her jumps because she's not a natural jumper is absolutely not true. If she used more speed and correct edge and jumping technique, she could achieve enough height with her strength to get full rotation on her jumps. I'm not a naturally gifted skater and yet, with good instruction and proper technique, I (as a female) am able to land double jumps well into my 30s and at a height of 5'10".
Many coaches are teaching kids this sort of "muscle through the rotation" technique because they are small and the coach can show progress to the parents because little Suzy learned to "land double flips" in a week. Parents don't know any better but can go and brag to their friends/other parents that their kid has 4 doubles now and the coach doesn't lose a student because it takes "too long" to get jumps. When little Suzy gets to be a couple inches taller, they continue to try to muscle through the elements and start getting under rotation calls. Then they have to go to a "jump doctor" who has to deconstruct everything and start over.
It's so reassuring to hear about your jump experiences, mskater93. It gives me hope, because if skating really were to come down to some Darwinian reduction to sprites, I'd probably lose interest in it. Your height makes me think of a wonderful skater from the early 1980s, Lisa Marie Allen. She was about 5 foot 8, and a more elegant skater was hard to find. She was the perennial runner-up behind Linda Fratianne, so she didn't do too badly.
I know the easy conclusion is Frank Carroll's observation that a girl's height-to-strength ratio is best at age 13, but as you point out, strength isn't everything. So each skater makes her own ending in this. What we sometimes get as a result is an Olympics where the three ladies' medalists are all over 21, as we had with Shizuka, Sasha, and Irina. Not that that's the only good outcome, but it does prove a point--that a skater's life doesn't have to be over at 13 1/2.
Back to our topic, I hope this means that Caroline gets safely through this stage and gets her jumps back--only even better this tim.
I know the easy conclusion is Frank Carroll's observation that a girl's height-to-strength ratio is best at age 13, but as you point out, strength isn't everything. So each skater makes her own ending in this. What we sometimes get as a result is an Olympics where the three ladies' medalists are all over 21, as we had with Shizuka, Sasha, and Irina. Not that that's the only good outcome, but it does prove a point--that a skater's life doesn't have to be over at 13 1/2.
Back to our topic, I hope this means that Caroline gets safely through this stage and gets her jumps back--only even better this tim.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
ideally, Caroline and all the other american ladies would want good skates at the GP and skate thier best at Nationals. but rarely does the ideal happen. Nationals always has been the main (and in many cases) the only determinat of the olympic team. I think it is more important for Caroline to focus on Nationals where, if she recovers fast and trains hard she could really make a statement.
Mskater93 is right-- Caroline has a better suited physique than alot of the ladies that jump better than her right now...its the physics of it that really prevent her from improving. Its not that she's had good technique, jumped well and then puberty took it all away from her-- its just that while she could get away with bad technique at a younger age this is when it comes back to haunt her. The trouble is, I'm sure she's aware through tape viewings of how her jumping differs from those that jump better-- but being aware and changing old habits/trying to mimic textbook jumping technique are two entirely different things.
Also, I've noticed that its not so much the corkscrewing itself-- because everyone does it to some extent, albeit less pronounced/purely reliant-- but that she does this way too early when about to jump. Reviewing videos makes it apparent that she corkscrews before she even taps into the ice. The best ladies jumpers will, by contrast, keep their shoulders square with their hips until right about the moment when they tap.
Can't they put her on the harness to have her try everything she's not doing until it feels less foreign?
Also, I've noticed that its not so much the corkscrewing itself-- because everyone does it to some extent, albeit less pronounced/purely reliant-- but that she does this way too early when about to jump. Reviewing videos makes it apparent that she corkscrews before she even taps into the ice. The best ladies jumpers will, by contrast, keep their shoulders square with their hips until right about the moment when they tap.
Can't they put her on the harness to have her try everything she's not doing until it feels less foreign?
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