Challenges in developing successful Pair teams: programs & proposed solutions?

[Sylvia]

Challenges in developing successful Pair teams: programs & proposed solutions?

I've copied or excerpted all the posts below from the What happened to these promising US skaters? thread to start this new thread on pairs (it doesn't have to focus solely on US pairs but I see it as a logical jumping off point):

I actually read an article back around 2006 or so (when Tatmianina and Marinin were still competing and training in the US) that had some quotes from Oleg Vasiliev on the state of US Pair skating and why there were issues in the US versus Russia/China/et al. His take on it was that the a boy skater and a girl skater decide to try out as a pair team. In the US, if they don't immediately click (like in under a year) as a talented team, they break up and try again with another skater of the opposite sex. In Russia, you are partnered with someone and expected to make it work (unless something god-awful causes a need for the team to be broken up). It was very interesting.

I analyzed this discrepancy in the other thread. But it's worth going into again. So why are the many factors seemingly at work against the US developing a top tier pair less applicable to US ice dancing?

Ice dancing is less reliant on and less sensitive to differences in size and growth. Not that the woman being smaller doesn't help in ice dancing, especially with the lift levels, but it's a lot easier to adjust to it in ice dancing. Thus, it's both easier to find and keep partners.

Ice dancing has less absolute skill barriers. Pairs requires a vast variety of skills (the most of all the figure skating disciplines, in my opinion), and some of them are just beyond the vast majority of people. Most skaters are never going to land triple jumps. A lot who do are never going to land them consistently. And if they can at one point, puberty can knock that right out. That alone can completely torpedo the international top tier potential of any pairs team. If one partner hits that wall, the team can wave world and Olympics medal hopes bye bye.

In other countries with more autocratic skating programs, very often they will pluck out a boy and a girl who are talented at singles skating and put them in a pair. In the US, if you're a skater who shows talent in singles, you might dabble in pairs, but you're going to focus on singles, where the money is (which is more important to US skaters). And as with any country, if a skater shows good ice aptitude, but hits that triple jump wall or can't handle those lifts or whatever else, why not try ice dancing?

And possibly the most important difference? Igor Shpilband! Let's face it, the US ice dancing program would not be making a peep without him. He has exactly the right experience, discipline and talent to mold all these skaters into great international competitors. We have no one like that in US pairs skating, it seems. John Nicks, who coached the last internationally dominant US pairs team, Randy and Tai, is either not working with any US pair team with much potential, or doesn't have the experience and skills to coach skaters for modern pair skating. All the negatives against US pair skating could be rendered moot if we had just one great coach (and supporting team). We don't seem to have one yet.

I think pairs require the most complex, diverse and often paradoxical skills and qualities in partners. This easily leads to mismatches, frustration and impatience that aren't ameliorated because under the US system it's every skater for her/himself. I think progress in ice dancing is a lot more likely to be convergent, with both partners advancing together. That minimizes the drama.

In conclusion, if the US wants to improve its pair program: dish out extra funding for pair teams to make up for the fact that pair prizes are not only lower, but have to be split among partners to encourage talented single skaters to go into pairs. Attract/kidnap a great pair coach.

I like your analysis and you need to keep hammering that message. I would add to your conclusion: Sell it to the parents. I had some interesting conversations with a "skater dad" a year or two ago who happened to be my physical therapist. He talked a lot about his kids' talent, training situation, and future in the sport, but he only talked singles. He looked down on pairs as something for losers. I did my best to explain how hard (and exciting) pairs was, and he had an "aha" reaction. It was really news to him, and he was serious enough about his kids' skating to be planning to sell his house and move closer to a good coach. Maybe we'll get a new pairs boy out of those conversations. : )

Way to go! Your enthusiasm and inspirational made me think... There is huge potential in the US for a pair team to become stars. It is the least competitive discipline in the US, thus it'll be easier to rise in its ranks. It is the most explosive discipline in figure skating in its modern form: a still photo of a huge twist lift would blow most people's minds, and satisfy the American need for extremeness in sports. And Americans (as most people around the world) love romance. They love duets and they love couples. If an internationally successful US pair team can sell that angle, cha-ching! There's a lot of unique and multiplied risks in investing in pairs in the US, but maybe the reward ratio isn't so bad after all.

Yes - wouldn't it be nice it if the answer to the question to where have all these promising single skaters gone was: to be become successful pairs skaters . When I watched Nat'ls it was obvious that some of the skaters were never going to get their triples solid enough to be really competitive as singles, but they have good fundamentals and presentation. I often think they could be good pairs skaters, though as SB says there is a whole other skill set they have to master too. A great and inspiring coach could do a lot

Back to pair skating, like Serious Business writes it's not as easy as it sounds, several dynamics are involved. The girl has to be small enough (both height & weight) so the guy can lift & throw her, and the guy has to be big enough (both height & muscle) to do so. But most importantly, as Peter Carruthers & even Dick Button have said in the past "the girl must be fearless"! :thumbsup: She's going to be lifted 12 feet off the ground and thrown that far across the ice, no time for trepidation or fear. She's gotta be prepared to have her chin split open at least once, and maybe even dropped and knocked unconscious (e.g. Katia Gordeeva). Likewise, the guy has to be just as fearless, knowing that one trip or catch of the ice on his blade can result in brain injury (e.g. Paul Binnebose). It's not for the faint of heart.

By the way, I recall Katia writing in her book that she wasn't a strong singles skater, and that's why she was assigned to pair skating. She was a decent singles skater, but not amongst the best, therefore pair skating it was.

Americans Pairs skating needs a successful team to spark a revival, as well. Inoue and Baldwin were interesting and successful, but they didn't acheive the magic off the teams they were competing against. Before them, Ina/Zimmeran, Ina/Dungen, Meno/Sand, etc. My point is that it's been a long long time since an American pairs team has had a realistic shot at any color medal at the international level, let alone gold.

Well, it seems that Ina/Zimmerman should have had an effect for other American pair skaters when they finished 5th at olympics and were coached by Moskvina. But even Moskvina could not put them on the podium. And after them, there wasn't a huge revival resulting in great American coaches or pairs.

 

[Olympia]

Good thread!

I think the point about Shpilband (and Zoueva)'s being one of the main reasons for the North American ice dance flowering right now is an excellent one. It's similar to what happened to South Korea, that time with a good and determined skater rather than a coach. Who would have thought that Korea would ever have a world class skater--and not just a good skater, but probably the greatest exponent of CoP skating of her era? It was impossible up until the moment it happened.

At this moment, we can't figure out where the potential lies, but the minute That Pair shows up, it will look inevitable. I would love for the "dream coach" to be a homegrown American one, just so it doesn't look as if we have to import all our talent, but I guess this is often how such things work. After all, the great Russian ballet tradition in St. Petersburg sprang from Marius Petipa, a ballet master/choreographer who was imported from France in the mid-nineteenth century.

If an American coach turns out to be the catalyst for a great pairs skating nucleus, one guess is that it could be Peter Oppegard, who himself was an Olympic medalist in pairs (bronze in 1988). It would be poetic justice if this happened, because he coaches at East-West, in Kwan country. I was impressed with his pairs coaching with Tiffany and Johnnie Stiegler, and though that pair outgrew skating (literally and physically), they showed both their promise and his potential as a coach. Another possibility that's equally satisfying is Jason Dungjen and Yuka Sato. After all, his track record includes teaching her to skate pairs as an adult. That's pretty good coaching right there.

 

[Serious Business]

Another thing I didn't point out in the above quote is that it's very important for the sake of a robust pairs program to have enough boys in figure skating. The scarcity of male partners is a problem all over, but it's especially bad in the US. There are cultural and institutional reasons for the relative lack of men in the US. In Russia and China, there are great incentives to for a lot of boys to join the Olympic sports program. There are money, security and prestige. And coaches will scout out kids and pluck out the promising ones to try them out. None of that is feasible in the US.

We have vastly more girls in figure skating. A lot of them will try out pairs, as will the boys. But because there are a lot less males to go around, a lot of promising female pair skaters are languishing as a result. The lack of boys may also encourage more drama and switching in pairs. With male partners so hotly sought after, they probably get poached now and then. It may be one of the reasons why US pairs is so musical chair-ish in its partnering. If we can get more boys in figure skating, this will lead to more pairs, and a higher chance that one team will finally breakthrough.

-----------

But that's going forward. Let's not neglect what we do have. I know I was very melodramatic in my despairing over the current batch of US pairs. But hey, 4CC sure proved me wrong. The US pairs performed spectacularly there. Denney/Coughlin may be very rough around the edges and not really to my taste, but from nationals onward, they have been showing remarkable athleticism and consistency. They are an explosive, strong team that seems to be gaining momentum and confidence. I did say that having a banner pair team who can sell the romance would be a huge plus. Well, not to speculate on their private lives, but certainly on ice, they can and do project a hefty dose of l'amore. If they can start winning more internationally, they could help encourage more interest, participation and investment in US pairs. I would like to see the team get much better choreography next season. Their programs this season are very sub-par and hobble them unnecessarily in the artistic department.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Very interesting points of view. Not knowing anything about skating gives me a unique perspective. It seems to me that any country has issues with interest, bucks, and coaching/facilities. In this country, maybe one out of a million lads has a serious interest in becoming a pair skater...maybe less. Maybe alot less. From what people tell me, this sport of figure skating is very expensive even before seniors. So these guys have to pick the right parents or have a partner with bucks. I dont know much about financing in the US but dont other countries have sports machines where if you have talent, you get the resourses from the government? Kinda like the old sports machine of East Germany? As figure skating wains in this and other countries, one would think the interest would wain too. I think Ice dancing is a bit different. I dont know about you, but I think all figure skaters other than ice dancers are either too young to be afraid when they start or crazy. True, there are many dangerous sports that kids get into cause they are thrilling and popular. But many are relatively way less expensive than skating and going up the ladder..... if there is interest and bucks, then the coaches and facilities will follow. I am worried about the first two.

 

[Serious Business]

It's not true you don't know anything about figure skating, CoyoteChris. You've attended multiple competitions, saw and read lots about figure skating and talked to skaters and coaches.

Anyway, some countries definitely have government organized sports machines. China, Russia (doubly so now that Winter Olympics are there) and Japan all have far more autocratic national skating organizations than the US. There's a lot less skaters have to worry about in those programs with regards to funding and resources. But there's also a lot less control and self-motivation. Americans, by and large, are big believers in doing it yourself. Which is more than fine for sports, which has been a smashing success for Americans internationally (just not in pairs), although the philosophy breaks down and dies when it comes to other things like healthcare.

You are absolutely right that interest and bucks (which follows the former) will help figure skating in the US, including pairs. I do think that going forward, if skating's popularity can be revived in the US, maybe pairs deserves an extra push in the US. Like I said before, the prizes for pairs and ice dancing are much less in $$$, and then they have to be split. Perhaps the USFS could set up a Fund for Strong Partnership that gives some extra dough to well performing pair skaters and ice dancers.

As for attracting a good pairs coach, the extra funding would help. But there are lots of factors beyond the control of US skating: how attractive the US is as a land for immigration. When Igor Shpilband defected to the US from the USSR, he was leaving a very politically repressive regime for a much freer land. Nowadays, while the US remains free, Russia is a much less repressive place, and it's much more prosperous. Their government, in fact, is jealously guarding the coaching talent in the country, pressuring them into dropping foreign students and sticking to the motherland while showering them with funds. China may also have some great coaches. But the middle class in that country is exploding, repression is about as low as ever... for the middle class, the coaches there also have less incentive to defect.

What we can do is try to identify great coaches already in the US. The USFS should maybe commission a study, using statistics, to see what coaches are the most effective. Then steer promising skaters to them and pay them to share their technique or to lure them back into coaching, if necessary.

In fact, I'd like to see statistics used more in figure skating coaching and strategy. The US may not have the government sponsored sports machine other countries do, but we do have a very robust and pioneering industry of scientists who vigorously apply statistics to managing sports. It's time we leverage that in figure skating. The COP, if nothing else, churns out a ton of usable data. It needs to be studied and exploited.

 

[Nadine]

Well I'm on the "recruit pairs coach from Russia" bandwagon.

Seriously, time & time again it has been proven that recruiting the best from another country (namely Russia) works. Olympia already brought up the ballet connection from Russia. And I'll add Romanian Bela Karolyi (Nadia Comaneci's ex-coach), whom revolutionized American Ladies Gymnastics, producing Olympic Champion Mary Lou Retton. Even Shannon Miller knew that in order to beat the best she had to travel to Russia to find out how they did it, thereby modelling her work-out routine to that of the Russians. And of course American Ice Dance would be nothing without the Russians.

No need to re-invent the wheel, recruit is the way to go imho. But there's no $ to recruit with, so what to do what to do??? Maybe the USFSA can take a page out of Alabama University: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf...end-recuit-105-letters-one-day-234515452.html

The aforementioned would be way less expensive than what Joe Namath asked for (& was given), which was a new house for his mom, a brand new car, football recruiting jobs for his brothers, and a bonus of like $500,000! And that was back in the 70's. (8^O

But when all is said & done it comes down to the skaters, and unlike Russia, Amercans pairs break up all the time. How do you get around that? :confused2: Maybe give incentives to those pairs that stay together longer? They get first priority for international assignments, more envelope funding, things like that... :think:

 

[DianaSelene]

I hope that if American pairs ever reach anything it will be done by American skaters and coaches. Of course it is easy to go hire someone. It is done all the time. Zoueva and Shpilband are an example. But, seriously? Look at Yao Bin. He spent his whole life researching, watching Russians skate, learning, failing, and finally accomplishing. It was done without the help of others. He did it himself through hard work, and succeeded by finally producing olympic champions. Now, what? If American pairs coaches are not able to produce high quality pairs then they cannot. Period..... Or they could go the easy way out and hire Russian coaches. Sure, but does that show we can't do anything ourselves. Look at videos, competitions. If that is not enough, explore further. Make our own methods of training that will produce results. If we want D/C to not only skate cleanly but actually look good on the ice, make them take TONS of dance lessons because they need them. Yao Bin did. Aleksei Mishin is not only a great coach but also an inventor. He makes stuff that will help his students jump faster, has a special method of teaching jump technique.

Of course this is not just about coaches. There is the problem of skaters separating after a few years. To that, the solution would be maybe to increase rewards, but it's not like usfsa will listen to us. :disapp:

 

[Serious Business]

I don't see how Igor Shpilband isn't American. He made a much greater effort to be a part of the country and to be its citizen than most Americans who simply rely on being born in the right place like the lazy bums they are. Any coach who is based in America and trains American skaters are American to me. That their knowledge, tradition and culture has its origin elsewhere is also a perfectly American thing.

-----

Yao Bin's advantage is that he started from scratch. He had no preconceptions and "no one to tell him no, this can't be done". This is what allowed him to not only coach a slew of great teams, but revolutionize the entire pairs discipline. He popularized and made mandatory the massive throws and twist lifts. If he had been bogged down by existing figure skating tradition and knowledge, I don't think he would've.

Which is to say that pair coaches in the US may be hampered by their preconceptions and traditions. Some of them have to start revising how they approach teaching and team arrangement. What they have currently isn't working out. There are factors beyond their control, to be sure, but they also have a lot of influence. And it's also perfectly possible a new pairs coach will pop up that shepherds a US team to greatness, who will then take on more students as successful coaches do, and juice up the US pairs program.

 

[Spun Silver]

I suspect it's not the quality of the coaches but a combination of other factors - primarily economic and cultural - that is the problem. We have John Nicks, Dalilah Sappenfield, Peter Oppegard, etc. - I think we even have "a Russian," Oleg Vasiliev - but if super-talented young people don't go to them and commit totally to this demanding and unlucrative discipline, so what?

I wonder what the coaches themselves have to say about this.

 

[Nadine]

Russian pairs, leastways in the past with G&G, are the ones with the best correct technique. Not China.

American Pairs, just like Ice Dance before them, went nowhere for decades. Now we have World Ice Dance Champions (something that never happened before) due to the Russian coaches that were recruited. So I personally have no problem if the USFSA decides to recruit a Russian pairs coach in the future. There's no shame in that.

That said, I'm proud of the ones that are patriotic and refuse to leave their homeland no matter the lure of riches. But on the other hand we're all human beings created in the image of God, why not share one's knowledge with the world. Taking nothing away from the originators.

 

[DianaSelene]

I don't see how Igor Shpilband isn't American. He made a much greater effort to be a part of the country and to be its citizen than most Americans who simply rely on being born in the right place like the lazy bums they are. Any coach who is based in America and trains American skaters are American to me. That their knowledge, tradition and culture has its origin elsewhere is also a perfectly American thing.

I can see where you are coming from about Shpilband. Zoueva, however, began coaching in Russia so I do believe her to be more of a Russian.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Well.... given how international any given development team actually is, I wonder just how much one should care about origins.

 

[Tonichelle]

I thought Igor came here not for the coaching opportunities so much as he was tired of the political issues in his home country? He brought Gorsha Sur along with him IIRC... so I don't think he counts as being "recruited", and he's to be creditted for his hard work in getting US Ice Dance where it is today

 

[Nadine]

To tell the truth I've always looked down on defectors. Truly patriotic human beings will give their life to their country, and that does not go unnoticed by me. But as for knowledge, let it be shared with the world. Like Mr. Mishin does, he has camps where anybody around the world can sign up & particpate. In fact, this is the exact type of camp that was offered in gymnastics, and which Shannon Miller participated in. Both she & her coach took what they learnt from the best (Russia) and used it to their advantage, always acknowledging Russia first & foremost. Others are not as kind, preferring to steal from them with no acknowledgement whatsoever. :disagree:

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

To tell the truth I've always looked down on defectors. Truly patriotic human beings will give their life to their country, and that does not go unnoticed by me. But as for knowledge, let it be shared with the world. Like Mr. Mishin does, he has camps where anybody around the world can sign up & particpate. In fact, this is the exact type of camp that was offered in gymnastics, and which Shannon Miller participated in. Both she & her coach took what they learnt from the best (Russia) and used it to their advantage, always acknowledging Russia first & foremost. Others are not as kind, preferring to steal from them with no acknowledgement whatsoever. :disagree:

Holy mother of Abraham Lincoln what an offensive thing to say.

 

[CoyoteChris]

(I certainly cant put myself in Igor's shoes and what he went through, but all in all I don't look down on folk that don't believe in the politics of their country or its oppression and want to start again in another. As long as they do it legally. When the US starts putting American citizens in concentration camps for no reason other than their ethnicity, then maybe I will defect too....oh wait, it already has...never mind)
This thread still holds lots of good info for me. Thanks Serious Business (and by the way, Igor is very much an American. You will see more than one Past Russian Skater/Coach put their hand over their heart during the Star Spangled Banner at events....they are more American than many Americans (see 5 page cover story, Feb 2012 Skating Mag. on Igor and Marina (Igor says the short version is that they (he and his then wife) were in newyork doing a show and were helping Gorsha get his luggage together to defect and were spotted and they were afraid to return to Russia. I would be too if some of my fellow Russians saw me helping a defector )
When at Lake Placid, at the freinds of figure skating breakfast, at SA, there was a question and answer period. I asked the Pairs who came (when I could pry my eyes off of Brooke Castile) what help they got as far as state of the art sports medicine and training analysis, biomechanics analysis, etc (unencombered by the thought process, I thought some US Olympic/USFSA org might actually care about skating) and they politely informed me that skating was basically an individual sport and not a team sport and they recieved very little support in this reguard. Brooke also said that , "Well, Ben won't let me eat!". There was also a bit of honest talk about a then pair (who shall remain nameless but was there at the breakfast) not getting along too well. One thing is for sure.....this issue is very complex and perhaps skating may never return to what is once was and therefore the interest in the sport of pairs as far as Athletes will remain low. I still dont know how they get someone to be thrown high in the air and land backward on one foot. (shameless plug comming) But for those that will participate in pairs and other disiplines, I am thankful and proud that I can give a bit to th Friends of Figure Skating and help them out. Hey, I dont agree with alot of what is going on now behind the scenes, but I know my money does go to the skaters. I know lots of folk maybe cant give a bunch of bucks to help them...but we dont need a few giving lots of bucks....we need many giving a few bucks....its a good feeling to help those that give us so much enjoyment.
Chris who has seen 20 plane crashes but can barely stand to watch Novice pairs....

 

[Olympia]

Chris, what you said about Russians and others coming here as skaters and coaches reminds me of what happened before and during World War II in terms of classical music. A lot of Europe's great instrumentalists and conductors in Central Europe were either Jewish or otherwise suspect to the Nazis. So they got out and came here. As a result, for decades nearly every major American symphony orchestra had a conductor from Europe: Eugene Ormandy in Philadelphia, George Szell in Cleveland, Otto Klemperer in Los Angeles, Antal Dorati in Minnesota...it's amazing Europe had anyone left. It led to a flowering of music in this country that hasn't really faded yet. I hope the parallel holds true with figure skating. We could use such a flowering in more than just ice dancing.

(Like you, Chris, I can't bring myself to watch Novice pairs...it's more frightening than auto racing!)

 

[Serious Business]

Thanks for the fascinating and rich info, CoyoteChris! BTW, what? You've seen 20 plane crashes? Eek, I hope some of them made it out OK.

I had a feeling Igor is loyal and grateful to America, thanks for confirming it! He certainly has made outsized contributions to the country. Without him, the US would not have had medalists in the last two World Championships. As an American, I'm grateful to him and Marina.

Pairs may seem dangerous, and it is. But still, there are less injuries during competitions compared to sports like hockey and football.

 

[Sylvia]

The main pair coaches in the U.S. with at least 1 Senior, Junior and/or Novice pair at 2012 Nationals are (roughly from east to west):

Boston, MA: Bobby Martin, Carrie Wall - Donlan/Speroff (S4), Castelli/Shnapir (S5), Bautista/Harris (S12), Shaughnessy/Morgan (N3)

Ellenton, FL: Jim Peterson, Lyndon Johnston (CAN) - Evora/Ladwig (S3), Zhang/Bartholomay (S8) [also Kemp/King (GBR) and Lawrence/Swiegers (CAN) part-time]

Indianapolis, IN: Serguei Zaitsev (RUS) - Andrews/LeDuc (S11), Zaitsev/Stevens (N4)

Dallas, TX: Peter Cain (AUS), David Kirby - Cain/Reagan (S6), Smith/Evans (N7)

Colorado Springs, CO: Dalilah Sappenfield, Larry Ibarra - C. Denney/Coughlin (S1), Poapst/Knierim (S7), H. Denney/Frazier (J1), Simpson/Blackmer (J2), Duarte/Grafton (J3), Aaron/Settlage (J6)

Scottsdale, AZ: Doug Ladret (CAN) - Vise/Baldwin (S9), Fields/Pacini (N2)

Los Angeles, CA:
Todd Sand, Jenni Meno, John Nicks (GBR) - Marley/Brubaker (S2), Calalang/Sidhu (J4), Pearce/Norris (J7), Liu/Perini (N1)
Peter Oppegard: Pfund/Reiss (J5), Middleton/Hennings (N5)

 

[Mathman]

To tell the truth I've always looked down on defectors.

Almost all Americans are descended from people who left the countries of their birth seeking new opportunities.