Choreographer or Coach?

[Sam-Skwantch]

The first thing I'll say is that Choreographers and Coaches are both very important to a skater. This is a pretty basic fact. I wonder though if one may be more important than the other. Maybe some skaters have different situations that the coach is the most important and with others the choreographer unlocks the skaters success regardless of the coaching.

I thought we could discuss situations where skaters have parted ways with a coach but kept the same choreographer and the results that came with it. Maybe some skaters ditched a choreographer and had a change in results....good or bad.

I'm really curious to hear some feedback because while I can identify a lot of the skaters and their coaches some of the choreographers aren't really in the spotlight. So who is more important to you? Coach or Choreographer? What roles do you think the coach plays in making the choreography a success? Please share your thoughts

 

[andromache]

Yuna kept David Wilson after her split from BOrser. Still extremely successful - based on an interview with David from TSL, it really seemed like he was central to her artistry (though of course David is biased).

Overall, it seems to me as though BOrser's skaters tend to develop artistically based upon their choreographers. For Yuzu, Yuna, and Javier, their technical success is from Brian, while the choreographer(s) have transformed them into artists.

Carolina/Lori pairing seems to have had more influence on who Carolina is as a skater than any of her coaches.

Meanwhile, the Frank/Lori coach/choreographer team seems to exert equal influence over skaters - like Michelle Kwan. Based on Christine Brennan's book, it really seems like Michelle's transformation from juniorish girl to mature artist lady was a true joint effort between Frank and Lori.

The coach is always more important than the choreographer, IMO. They are responsible for the technical - there is no success without the technical aspect. However, it's the choreographer or the coach/choreographer teamwork that makes a successful skater into a legend. Memorable programs and a unique artistic identity is central to creating a skating legend. Memorable programs are so, so important to this, and you need a choreographer for that.

(Like, Brian Joubert had a very successful career. But is he a legend? I don't think I've ever seen him mentioned when discussing the greats of the sport or great programs/performances. Daisuke Takahashi only had slightly more competitive success, but he's considered a legend. Why? Programs.)

 

[mrrice]

Well, this is a really interesting topic. Mariah Bell is doing it right now. She made the move to Raf but, was wise enough to keep Rohene. Here's the thing that can be difficult. Rohene still go's back to Kori's rink to work with Jason and his other skaters....I wonder if that ever gets weird?? :think:

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

The coach and choreographer are about equal since they mostly deal with different aspects of the skaters packaging: Coach with technical and Choreographer with everything else. I'm going to state though that the choreographer inches out the coach by an inch or two since they are more integral in the skaters presentation and movement as to where the coach just helps them/leads them with perfecting spins and jumps etc. For instance: You can can jump your brains out and be technically perfect, but if you have no styling or make people feel anything then whats the point?!? Choreographers win here IMHO.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I agree about the roles...coach secures technical details and choreographer sets the theme but I have to think some choreographers not only know how to show the characters development but to enhance a skaters ability to perform the elements. In other words not over complicate the choreography to the point that the skater can't maintain the flow and focus to execute the elements. Or is the coach the one setting the jump layout in most cases? For instance does the choreographer plan a 2axel in a program knowing that a certain skater lands them well and places the most crucial choreographed moment after the most likley to be successfully landed element? Does that make sense the way I'm phrasing that?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I agree about the roles...coach secures technical details and choreographer sets the theme but I have to think some choreographers not only know how to show the characters development but to enhance a skaters ability to perform the elements. In other words not over complicate the choreography to the point that the skater can't maintain the flow and focus to execute the elements. Or is the coach the one setting the jump layout in most cases? For instance does the choreographer plan a 2axel in a program knowing that a certain skater lands them well and places the most crucial choreographed moment after the most likley to be successfully landed element? Does that make sense the way I'm phrasing that?

This is true. There are many choreographers that consult for the most part with the coach on what elements will be there and then they build the program to the skaters abilities and enhancing strengths around those elements. Again, the choreographer having the upper hand so to speak is for the best, the skaters that don't have that arrangement suffer and you can tell when you watch said skaters perform or compete.

 

[sarama]

Yuna kept David Wilson after her split from BOrser. Still extremely successful - based on an interview with David from TSL, it really seemed like he was central to her artistry (though of course David is biased).

I honestly don't think David Wilson was the best possible choreographer for Yuna: Danse Macabre was a masterpiece, but everything else he choreographed for her was magical because of Yuna rather than the choreography itself. Whenever I see "El tango de Roxanne" or even her "Papa can you hear me?" I wonder what other choreographers could have done with her, and whether we ever saw Yuna's true potential choreographically speaking. At the same time, however I think David was essential in Yuna's career from a psychological point of view, and that's why she kept working with him for all those years. What I am trying to say is that sometimes a choreographer can be pivotal in a skater's career just because of their experience, character or relationship with the skater, that can help them find the perfect balance to be at their best.

 

[musicfan80]

Well, this is a really interesting topic. Mariah Bell is doing it right now. She made the move to Raf but, was wise enough to keep Rohene. Here's the thing that can be difficult. Rohene still go's back to Kori's rink to work with Jason and his other skaters....I wonder if that ever gets weird?? :think:

Nah. I bet they are all very professional - at least I hope so. I'm assuming that Kori is supportive of whatever additional work Rohene gets. She has only so many students.

Another (sorta) example is Joshua Farris - Damon Allen (one of his coaches - it seems like Christy Krall is purely a technical coach) used to help him with his choreography. But in the 2014-2015 season, he started using Jeffrey Buttle as a choreographer. We'll see with this next season what programs he has and who works with him on them.

I never got the impression that Damon was bothered with "being dumped" on the choreography side. He was probably fine with it as long as the programs were excellent. :yes:

 

[lappo]

What I am trying to say is that sometimes a choreographer can be pivotal in a skater's career just because of their experience, character or relationship with the skater, that can help them find the perfect balance to be at their best.

I agree with everything about Yuna (even if I would add Homage to Korea to the list of masterpieces, a pity that we didn't see a clean version at Worlds...). I also agree that some skaters really owe a lot to their choreographers for bringing out the best of them: current examples of very fruitful cooperation are among others Satton/Dickson, Lori/Carolina, DW/Javi and Yuzu and Jeff. In these cases, a deep personal bond is clearly working to bring out the skaters best qualities and artistry.
However, we have some good examples of skaters who really worked well with multiple choreographers (Dai immediately comes to mind) and I sometimes cannot help but with there would a more diversified use of choreographers.

 

[Ice Dance]

I agree that both are pivotal. And while I adore the choreography, connect with it first, and give choreographers a lot of credit for opening up the performance heart of individual skaters, in general, I would probably say the coach is the most important choice for the athlete because the coach is the person that is there all year long. By the end of the season, that program is going to reflect the coach and the athlete's priorities as much as the choreographer's original vision.

But because of that, I wanted to add that think it's vitally important for the coach to be able to support the choreography. To me, this means a couple things. A coach needs to be able to adapt a program over the course of a season based on the technical requirements in the sport and judges' feedback. And the coach needs to be able to maintain the uniqueness & heart of the original program within the choreography while this adaptation is taking place.

Finally, I really disagree with coaches whose immediate solution to an athletes' struggles with a new program is to blame the choreography & cut it. "Don't do that!" I always want to yell. If the athlete is a tremendous performer, rather than technician, then don't undercut his/her strength. And if the athlete needs to grow as a performer, then help them grow by valuing the program. Find a way to help the athlete get enough experience with the program so that he/she can feel that confidence in the full performance throughout the season. Yes, sometimes the choreographic details don't work in a particular location; but if you remove something, find a way to continue the story of the music somewhere else. Or call the original choreographer back in and get help with the adaptation.

Often it seems like the same coaches consistently undercut their athletes' choreography. While other coaches work extremely closely with a choreographer within their own team. And other coaches can support athletes with a wide variety of choreographers. I think both of the latter can be great, especially the last. It's wonderful to have a top-level choreographer you can rely on or even for a coach to do choreography him or herself, but not every skater responds to the same performance style. I think it is really worth applauding those coaches who can support programs from different choreographers & with different choreographic styles.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I agree that both are pivotal. And while I adore the choreography, connect with it first, and give choreographers a lot of credit for opening up the performance heart of individual skaters, in general, I would probably say the coach is the most important choice for the athlete because the coach is the person that is there all year long. By the end of the season, that program is going to reflect the coach and the athlete's priorities as much as the choreographer's original vision.

But because of that, I wanted to add that think it's vitally important for the coach to be able to support the choreography. To me, this means a couple things. A coach needs to be able to adapt a program over the course of a season based on the technical requirements in the sport and judges' feedback. And the coach needs to be able to maintain the uniqueness & heart of the original program within the choreography while this adaptation is taking place.

Finally, I really disagree with coaches whose immediate solution to an athletes' struggles with a new program is to blame the choreography & cut it. "Don't do that!" I always want to yell. If the athlete is a tremendous performer, rather than technician, then don't undercut his/her strength. And if the athlete needs to grow as a performer, then help them grow by valuing the program. Find a way to help the athlete get enough experience with the program so that he/she can feel that confidence in the full performance throughout the season. Yes, sometimes the choreographic details don't work in a particular location; but if you remove something, find a way to continue the story of the music somewhere else. Or call the original choreographer back in and get help with the adaptation.

Often it seems like the same coaches consistently undercut their athletes' choreography. While other coaches work extremely closely with a choreographer within their own team. And other coaches can support athletes with a wide variety of choreographers. I think both of the latter can be great, especially the last. It's wonderful to have a top-level choreographer you can rely on or even for a coach to do choreography him or herself, but not every skater responds to the same performance style. I think it is really worth applauding those coaches who can support programs from different choreographers & with different choreographic styles.

There are choreographers that are there with the skater on a daily to weekly basis, and also with some of the skaters stop in frequently during the season to adjust the choreography, so to say that the coach is more important because they are there daily or whatnot is null and void in many cases. Just saying.

 

[Ice Dance]

There are choreographers that are there with the skater on a daily to weekly basis, and also with some of the skaters stop in frequently during the season to adjust the choreography, so to say that the coach is more important because they are there daily or whatnot is null and void in many cases.

But the choreographer is only there all the time if the coach supports that kind of relationship.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

But the choreographer is only there all the time if the coach supports that kind of relationship.

That's why I said some. I know how things work.