Did Kostner deserve the bronze?

[David21]

Also, falls, pops, and poor jumps should play a role in PCS. You can interpret the PCS guidelines anyway you want I suppose (most judges do), but go watch an awful performance live and see if a good step sequence compensates. It dramatically affects "projection" and the "emotional / intellectual involvement" of the skater (you can almost see Carolina's impetus come crashing down as she fell on the triple toeloop) and it invariably messes up your timing with the music. Additionally, while you are regaining your composure coming out of a fall or pop, you are missing some choreography. Those are key components of performance, interpretation, and choreography. I'm not convinced you really believe popped jumps and falls don't deserve to be taken away from PCS. If someone popped 5 of their 7 jumps, would you say they deserve an 80 in PCS because they are good at step sequences and blowing kisses?

PCS has absolutely nothing to do with your numbers of successful jumps. You can pop all your jumps and still deserve sky-high PCs. There seems to be the fixated idea of some members on this forum that TES are PCS are directly linked and when you get high TES, you also deserve high PCS and when you make mistakes, your PCS should go down which is not how CoP is supposed to be used. Only when your technical mistakes affect the presention of the program, the PCS should be affected.

Also, she had errors in 4 elements (I suppose you could be generous and argue the almost-tripped out of a spin wasn't an error). There are 12 elements in total. 4/12 = 1/3. voila.

You said her mistakes were in 1/3 of the program. Now you are talking about the number of technical elements which is definitely not the same. One could argue that in Carolina's case her mistakes were not very disruptive, she got good back into the program after the fall very quickly and the popped jumps were only noticable for a few seconds. I agree those errors affected P/E to some degree but her skating skills did not get worse because of them, she still skated mostly in time to the music and missed only a minimal amount choregraphy of the 4-minute-program.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Only when your technical mistakes affect the presentation of the program, the PCS should be affected.

When you have a rink-long setup for a jump and you pop the jump with a messy landing, the program has been negatively affected. End of story.

 

[anyanka]

I don't think Kostner robbed Pogo, and neither do most of the people who are okay with the result. I think Pogo got what she deserved: a small medal and a great result.


You're ruining the "Caro wuzgifted" narrative! Why spoil it with facts?

Heh.

Glad that Pogo did well, by the way. I'm not a huge fan of her program but her jumps are great and she's definitely got presence.

 

[Buttercup]

Heh.

Glad that Pogo did well, by the way. I'm not a huge fan of her program but her jumps are great and she's definitely got presence.

I think Pogo has potential and hope to see her continuing to develop as a skater and performer.

I don't think any skater deserves a medal based on the SP!!!! I still say, coming in 10th in the LP should not have equated to a medal. And I don't think she skated up to the magesty of that music!!! Sorry.

Er, she was 6th in FS I think?

The funny thing is that at least two skaters this season medalled at major events despite being in the ballpark of 10th place in the SP, yet I saw few complaints: at Euros, Konstantin Menshov won a well-deserved bronze skating out of 11th place after the SP (!), while Denis Ten was 9th after the SP at the Olympics. Now that actually was an overscore, as his tech content was decidedly meh (quad fall, 3-2) and I thought he shouldn't even have made the penultimate group with that.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

When you have a rink-long setup for a jump and you pop the jump with a messy landing, the program has been negatively affected. End of story.

While I totally agree.....I don't think we've seen the end of this "story".

 

[Blades of Passion]

^ Heh, you're probably right!

The funny thing is that at least two skaters this season medalled at major events despite being in the ballpark of 10th place in the SP, yet I saw few complaints

The SP is less important, though, and scores can be tighter together in that segment. "10th" in the SP might not really mean much at all in terms of a medal chance. Alexander Majorov skated a clean SP with a Quad in Sochi and was only placed 10th in that segment by the judges.

 

[David21]

When you have a rink-long setup for a jump and you pop the jump with a messy landing, the program has been negatively affected. End of story.

Of course messy landings affect the program to a certain degree but you think that this makes Caro's program bad choreo which is simply ludicrous.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Of course messy landings affect the program to a certain degree but you think that this makes Caro's program bad choreo which is simply ludicrous.

I don't think it makes her choreography bad, I know that it makes her choreography worse. Everything exists on a relative scale. Kostner's program, as I've explained, did not have amazing choreography to begin with at the World Championships. It was good. She had some intriguing highlights. It wasn't a masterpiece. From that base mark, the mistakes continually brought it down. So the end result would be that she deserved about 7.5 for the Choreography component. She got 10's.

 

[Skater Boy]

IMHO Carolina is like a cheap or poorly made Chan. She is good/great at pcs but not in his category but gets treated like him - she is overmarked. She deserves good pcs but her skating skills and definitely her transitons are not even comparatively as great as Chan yet somehow she wins more easily or does well than Chan did when he was skating or if he was skating (as he may come back i guess). Anna probably was undermarked as she is so new but life isn't fair. Carow really lucky and has been lucky as a skater now I hope she moves on as she has had her 15 minutes of fame and it is more than she probably deserved. I am not so convinced Bolero is at great of a program.

 

[IcyEdges]

No, many of her medals as of recently are questionable, especially worlds when she imploded in the Free.
Many say it was a good bye present from judges, yet Caro has said recently she might continue on. If she does, I hope she ditches Nichol as her choreographer and tries the work of someone like Buttle or Lambiel.

 

[jiggs]

IMHO Carolina is like a cheap or poorly made Chan. She is good/great at pcs but not in his category but gets treated like him - she is overmarked. She deserves good pcs but her skating skills and definitely her transitons are not even comparatively as great as Chan yet somehow she wins more easily or does well than Chan did when he was skating or if he was skating (as he may come back i guess). Anna probably was undermarked as she is so new but life isn't fair. Carow really lucky and has been lucky as a skater now I hope she moves on as she has had her 15 minutes of fame and it is more than she probably deserved. I am not so convinced Bolero is at great of a program.

You can question her choreography - ok, that's a matter of taste. You can question her interpretation - again, a matter of taste. You can question her transitions - ok, because admittedly there could be more. But when it comes to her skating skills, they are hands down the best in the world. Look at what she is able to do with her blades, the quality of her edging. No other lady skating right now can do what she does with her blades.

And saying she has had her 15 mins of fame is not fair to what she has achieved. She has skated 12 seaons on elite level, non stop. I think your statement is not fair to what she has given to the sport throughout all these years. If you don't like her style - fine. But don't make it sound like she was just another skater. She is much more than that.

 

[Meoima]

You can question her choreography - ok, that's a matter of taste. You can question her interpretation - again, a matter of taste. You can question her transitions - ok, because admittedly there could be more. But when it comes to her skating skills, they are hands down the best in the world. Look at what she is able to do with her blades, the quality of her edging. No other lady skating right now can do what she does with her blades.

And saying she has had her 15 mins of fame is not fair to what she has achieved. She has skated 12 seaons on elite level, non stop. I think your statement is not fair to what she has given to the sport throughout all these years. If you don't like her style - fine. But don't make it sound like she was just another skater. She is much more than that.

Even though personally I do think she was over-scored at worlds, I think in term of PCS, she is still the best.

 

[R.D.]

Many say it was a good bye present from judges, yet Caro has said recently she might continue on.

hwell: Really? It seems to be assumed knowledge that she was going to be done after this season...

 

[Buttercup]

The SP is less important, though, and scores can be tighter together in that segment. "10th" in the SP might not really mean much at all in terms of a medal chance.

So long as Speedy doesn't get his way (and I hope he doesn't) I have no problem with a skater essentially winning it in the SP. If you were able to put that big a distance between yourself and others in the SP, despite fewer elements and lower PCS factoring, I'd say you deserve it.

IMHO Carolina is like a cheap or poorly made Chan. She is good/great at pcs but not in his category but gets treated like him - she is overmarked. She deserves good pcs but her skating skills and definitely her transitons are not even comparatively as great as Chan yet somehow she wins more easily or does well than Chan did when he was skating or if he was skating (as he may come back i guess).

Cheap or poorly made? What a nasty and stupid comment. Michael Huth and Lori Nichol have done a wonderful job with Kostner. She has superb skating skills and a far greater range as a performer than most of the men currently competing, Chan included. Yet she, like the other ladies, was held back PCS-wise for years, not overmarked. Top men, ice dancers and pairs were scoring well into the 9s and even closer to 10s while the ladies hovered in the 8s; it's about time that the ladies' PCS caught up with everyone else's. If V/T can get high 9s for Jesus Christ Superblah and D/W can get 10s for being on the ice, Kostner definitely deserves 9s, especially when she skates well. Asada too.

 

[jennyanydots]

I agree that was really uncalled for. I think most people would agree Carolina's interpretive skills far surpass Patrick's whether or not it's to your taste. Not to diss Patrick either because I believe people don't appreciate his subtlety but he still has a ways to go. There's also no denying that Carolina has amazing skating skills. Just look at how deep her edges are how she can generate speed with very little effort. Only criticism is her tendency for two foot skating, which could be attributed to the choreography. It's not fair to directly compare men and women either. Men can pull off intricate programs and transitions because of their greater strength and stamina. Even then, look how inconsistent it makes them.

 

[Meoima]

I agree that was really uncalled for. I think most people would agree Carolina's interpretive skills far surpass Patrick's whether or not it's to your taste. Not to diss Patrick either because I believe people don't appreciate his subtlety but he still has a ways to go. There's also no denying that Carolina has amazing skating skills. Just look at how deep her edges are how she can generate speed with very little effort. Only criticism is her tendency for two foot skating, which could be attributed to the choreography. It's not fair to directly compare men and women either. Men can pull off intricate programs and transitions because of their greater strength and stamina. Even then, look how inconsistent it makes them.

Caro is not famous for her consistency either. However, I do think Caro is above all the current skaters, both make and female, in terms of edge quality. There is no doubt that she deserves highest PCS in all the competition, but only when she is clean.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

hwell: Really? It seems to be assumed knowledge that she was going to be done after this season...

It's hard to say... she gave her best EVER performances at the Olympics. While it might seem nice to go out on a high note after a long career, it's apparent that she's still competitive. I mean, she pulled 203 points overall, and 126 points with that kind of freeskate. That would quite possibly win every GP event next year with Mao out of the picture, and easily get her into the GPF.

 

[Alba]

I mean, she pulled 203 points overall, and 126 points with that kind of freeskate. That would quite possibly win every GP event next year with Mao out of the picture, and easily get her into the GPF.

I'm not sure about that. If the judges thought this was her last skate, I think they're not going to give the same marks next year with so many good young skaters.

Only criticism is her tendency for two foot skating, which could be attributed to the choreography.

This and telegraphing her jumps.

 

[noskates]

How can you attribute two foot skating to choreography? Other skaters are slammed for two-footing their landings (Ashley Wagner comes to mind for example) and it's just considered poor technique or nerves. That bothers me less than skating half way across the rink before executing a jump. I accept that Caro is graceful. I do not agree that she has the best skating skills or that she does something wondrous with her edges. I also equate her bronze medal to a seasoned actor finally winning an Academy Award "because it was his/her time!"

I think if Caro competes in GPs next year she runs the risk of besmirching her bronze medal.....

 

[Alba]

How can you attribute two foot skating to choreography?

I don't think we should blame the choreography either, or better say If the choreo is like that most probably is because it suits her skating.