Do you agree with the Skating Lesson's views on Davis/White?

[chuckm]

D/W are going to Russia to compete in the Olympics. Olympic athletes have been warned by the IOC and their own federations to avoid making public statements or becoming involved in controversy on political issues at the expense of losing their eligibility to compete at the games. It is not their obligation to make a statement re their views on recent Russian discriminatory laws, even if privately they don't agree with those laws.

Lease presumably is NOT going to Russia and his personal freedom is in no danger whatsoever. He has no right to demand that athletes endanger their participation in the Olympics by publicly supporting his cause.

 

[Mathman]

Interestingly, the Russian laws have been a hot topic among the Detroit Red Wing hockey players, some of whom will compete in the Olympics for various countries. Here is Henrik Zetterberg.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...man-blast-russia-anti-gay-legislation/2668019

For an opposing view, Pavel Datzyuk.

http://clnsradio.com/boston-bruins/...el-datsyuk-in-favor-of-russia-s-anti-gay-laws

 

[zschultz1986]

D/W are going to Russia to compete in the Olympics. Olympic athletes have been warned by the IOC and their own federations to avoid making public statements or becoming involved in controversy on political issues at the expense of losing their eligibility to compete at the games. It is not their obligation to make a statement re their views on recent Russian discriminatory laws, even if privately they don't agree with those laws.

Lease presumably is NOT going to Russia and his personal freedom is in no danger whatsoever. He has no right to demand that athletes endanger their participation in the Olympics by publicly supporting his cause.

Such BS. There's a difference between giving your opinion on someone else's opinion and demanding public support.

Also, whether D/W like it or not, they're in a position of importance, as World Champions and OGM Favorites. To not understand that people listen to what you have to say is both stupid AND naive.

Also, Dave didn't ASK THE QUESTION TO THEM. IT'S NOT JUST DAVE. You people are just on a relentless crusade. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Also, at some point, what is more important? The lives of Russian men and women being discriminated against or a skating competition? I understand WHY some people wouldn't want to hurt their chances by giving an actual opinion, but it doesn't mean I agree with it. It's the cowards way out.

 

[gmyers]

Why is Wagner a model for Davis and White? All Wagner did was say "I will say the law is bad in the United States but not say anything in Russia at all and not even consider it there it any way and do nothing in opposition to it except condemn in the United States but overall it really doesn't matter to me more than skating matters"

 

[mskater93]

Questions:
1) Do you deal with political topics in your work place where you discuss them openly? How does that work out for you? Have you been spoken to about a hostile work environment because of your political discussions?

2) Are you outspoken about your work place policies you don't agree with or do you grumble in private and outwardly support or at least act neutrally to those policies? If you are outspoken, how does that work for your career (assuming you work for a company)? Have you been spoken to about that? Do you have people who report to you? Does that change your perspective/method on how you deal with work place policies you don't personally agree with?

Consider that figure skating/the Olympics are D/W work place as you answer these questions.

 

[RABID]

They're skaters, not politicians. If they don't want to talk about Russia's anti-gay laws, that's their prerogative.

100% agree. When and if someone speaks out then that person should be applauded. It is a risky thing to do and to speak out invites repercussions. However it does makes those who do speak out people you want to rally behind.

 

[zschultz1986]

This is all besides the point. Meryl was lambasted because she gave a stupid answer. I understand some people might try and say that it was her tactful way of saying "No comment" but if you didn't have a comment why not just say "No comment" or "I'm focused on what I need to do to win an Olympic Gold Medal" or "NO COMMENT".

Instead, she gave a barely coherent, middling answer and Dave called it what it was: a stupid Beauty Queen answer. When you're answering questions, it's best to make as definitive statement as possible, unless you're trying to be purposefully vague, in which case, that's a whole other ball of wax.

She gave a stupid question, and was rightfully called out. Did Dave go too far in mocking her? Yes. However, it's doesn't mean his point was wrong. He was correct in saying her answer was stupid. IT WAS STUPID.

Can we stop bringing this up now?

 

[Olympia]

Questions:
1) Do you deal with political topics in your work place where you discuss them openly? How does that work out for you? Have you been spoken to about a hostile work environment because of your political discussions?

2) Are you outspoken about your work place policies you don't agree with or do you grumble in private and outwardly support or at least act neutrally to those policies? If you are outspoken, how does that work for your career (assuming you work for a company)? Have you been spoken to about that? Do you have people who report to you? Does that change your perspective/method on how you deal with work place policies you don't personally agree with?

Consider that figure skating/the Olympics are D/W work place as you answer these questions.

Good points to consider.

 

[hitchem]

This is all besides the point. Meryl was lambasted because she gave a stupid answer. I understand some people might try and say that it was her tactful way of saying "No comment" but if you didn't have a comment why not just say "No comment" or "I'm focused on what I need to do to win an Olympic Gold Medal" or "NO COMMENT".

Instead, she gave a barely coherent, middling answer and Dave called it what it was: a stupid Beauty Queen answer. When you're answering questions, it's best to make as definitive statement as possible, unless you're trying to be purposefully vague, in which case, that's a whole other ball of wax.

She gave a stupid question, and was rightfully called out. Did Dave go too far in mocking her? Yes. However, it's doesn't mean his point was wrong. He was correct in saying her answer was stupid. IT WAS STUPID.

I just don't understand why Ashley's response was so much better. Yes, she displayed more personality, but she's not some crusader -- she said she disagreed with the laws, but at the same time, she's not Russian and those are Russia's laws. That's pretty mild. Why not ask the skaters whether they liked Stalin? It's a stupid question and only being asked because it's not actually controversial, i.e. all American skaters obviously disagree with the law.

 

[Ziggy]

Again:

Davis/White could have said that they don't know enough about the issue. They could have said that telling Russian people what to do or not do is not their call to make. They could have said that they do not want to get involved in politics.

I'd still be shaking my head at them evading the issue and pretending not to see the elephant in the room but the answer they have given was worse than that. It was cynical and it basically said 'We don't care.'

I'm sorry but saying 'I don't care' when you are being asked about the laws which created a witch hunt against non-heteronormative people and legitimised violence against them resulting in people being brutally raped, beaten to death and persecuted makes you a douchebag. Laws like this can only exist if we allow them to. And raising the issue is important because it results in more support (even if just moral) for the Russian LGBT community and at this point, they really need it.

4. However, they did also say they hadn't discussed it between themselves. Some people think that was a lie or a way to tactfully say ' we don't want to talk about this'. While that may be true, both have said they do not hang out much outside the rink.

Please. They knew this question was coming. The issue has been a hot topic for a long time before that press conference.

D/W are going to Russia to compete in the Olympics. Olympic athletes have been warned by the IOC and their own federations to avoid making public statements or becoming involved in controversy on political issues at the expense of losing their eligibility to compete at the games. It is not their obligation to make a statement re their views on recent Russian discriminatory laws, even if privately they don't agree with those laws.

Lease presumably is NOT going to Russia and his personal freedom is in no danger whatsoever. He has no right to demand that athletes endanger their participation in the Olympics by publicly supporting his cause.

USOC has now added sexual orientation to their discrimination charter and has made it clear that it is against the laws and is going to support all of their athletes who speak out against them, making sure they aren't breaking any Olympic rules whilst doing so.

I just don't understand why Ashley's response was so much better. Yes, she displayed more personality, but she's not some crusader -- she said she disagreed with the laws, but at the same time, she's not Russian and those are Russia's laws. That's pretty mild.

Her answer was eloquent and respectful. The fact is she isn't Russian and as such, she doesn't have any right to tell Russian people what to do. All she can do is express her personal disagreement and try to raise the awareness about this issue and that is exactly what she did.

Why not ask the skaters whether they liked Stalin? It's a stupid question and only being asked because it's not actually controversial, i.e. all American skaters obviously disagree with the law.

Because Stalin isn't relevant to the Olympics. Olympics are being marketed using the values of peace, community, comradery and similar other warm and fuzzy feelings. Yet, they are held in a country which has started a vicious hate campaign against non-heteronormative people, which results in them experiencing even more violence. It's hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[zschultz1986]

I just don't understand why Ashley's response was so much better. Yes, she displayed more personality, but she's not some crusader -- she said she disagreed with the laws, but at the same time, she's not Russian and those are Russia's laws. That's pretty mild. Why not ask the skaters whether they liked Stalin? It's a stupid question and only being asked because it's not actually controversial, i.e. all American skaters obviously disagree with the law.

It was better because she at least displayed some compassion for people who disagreed with the law, and while stating that she didn't agree with it, made sure to state that it really wasn't her place to do anything about it.

She also gave an eloquent, nuanced answer, which meant she actually thought about her response. In the entirety, yes, it's just a symbolic gesture, but it still shows some thought and intelligence.

Also, it's just that, hitchem. Why is Johnny Weir STILL more popular and well known in the public at-large than Evan, someone who won an OGM? Because he gives a good interview, shows personality, and is entertaining. It's the same thing.

 

[FlattFan]

She should have said, "no comment" and leave it at that.

I'm a bit disappointed she chose the "don't ask don't tell just dance" approach, but that is that. You can't expect everyone to speak up for everything. Meryl is not on a soap box, let her be who she is. An ice dancer.

 

[hitchem]

Why is Johnny Weir STILL more popular and well known in the public at-large than Evan, someone who won an OGM? Because he gives a good interview, shows personality, and is entertaining. It's the same thing.

Oh, I agree with that. It would definitely help them to get attention if they were less scripted and more forthcoming in interviews. They need to display more personality. I just don't think they should be castigated when the alternative -- saying "I disagree with the law," when the law is obviously horrendous -- is pretty banal.

 

[Tonichelle]

Questions:
1) Do you deal with political topics in your work place where you discuss them openly? How does that work out for you? Have you been spoken to about a hostile work environment because of your political discussions?

2) Are you outspoken about your work place policies you don't agree with or do you grumble in private and outwardly support or at least act neutrally to those policies? If you are outspoken, how does that work for your career (assuming you work for a company)? Have you been spoken to about that? Do you have people who report to you? Does that change your perspective/method on how you deal with work place policies you don't personally agree with?

Consider that figure skating/the Olympics are D/W work place as you answer these questions.

:agree:

 

[zschultz1986]

Oh, I agree with that. It would definitely help them to get attention if they were less scripted and more forthcoming in interviews. They need to display more personality. I just don't think they should be castigated when the alternative -- saying "I disagree with the law," when the law is obviously horrendous -- is pretty banal.

I agree, it's a pretty low bar for praise... but when you think about figure skatings history of either being openly homophobic or stigmatized, and gay stars having to "play straight" or whatever (Even Johnny, even though he never denied it, never acknowledged it until AFTER his career...) Ashley's comments, in that light, seems to be a refreshing new leaf.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Question: Do any skater/skaters have to make a stand publicly according to what you want them to? Why should any of them have to crusade for your cause? If they are not satisfied by your standard, should they deserve your endless scrutiny? I don't think it's the case but let's take ten steps back, even if any of them do not support your cause, can't they have their own opinions?

 

[zschultz1986]

Question: Do any skater/skaters have to make a stand publicly according to what you want them to? Why should any of them have to crusade for your cause? If they are not satisfied by your standard, should they deserve your endless scrutiny? I don't think it's the case but let's take ten steps back, even if any of them do not support your cause, can't they have their own opinions?

They sure can, and they can even make statements that amount to "No Comment." This isn't about that. She gave a stupid answer, she got blasted for a stupid answer. No one is asking them to crusade for anything, they were asked these things in a press conference. If it was a question out of left field, then I wouldn't hold it against them, but this has been asked MANY times by MANY reporters to MANY skaters, and has be talked about by the USOC, among others. This was a question they KNEW they were getting, and she swung and missed.

If anyone can make an honest, articulate statement either way, I'm fine. I was fine when Evan said something about speaking with one voice (To me, an unsurprising answer from Evan, all things considered, but whatever)

This is the LAST TIME I will say this and then I'm done with this thread: No one is asked them to fight for anything. They were all asked their opinion. Some chose not to say "No Comment," some chose Evan's route of echoing what the USOC has said, and Ashley chose to give her opinion. Meryl's was none of these, it was a dumb answer, which is odd, considering from all the things I've seen from her and about her (and the fact that she's a college student) strikes me as odd because she doesn't seem stupid.

They don't deserve endless scrutiny, and I definitely WILL be rooting for D/W during the Olys. However, it was a stupid response, anyway you look at the comment.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Apparently. White is a political science major and lists his favorite shows as The Daily Show and The Colbert Report, so it's a fair guess that he is a liberal/progressive in his political thinking. However, as a team D&W have always avoided political statements. Should they have had a better response to this question - yes, but really to castigate them for not condemning outwardly the Russian LGBT law tells more about those complaining about this issue. Why must they comment? What do V&M, or the Italians, or the French ice dancers say about this issue? Are they even asked, or is it only the Americans who are held to some kind of political standard?

This ^ x a zillion. I would be happier if they would, but they are not obligated to.

And no Bluebonnet, it's far from a dead horse. And it's already having unforeseen consequences-a new, more virulent strain of the HIV has emerged in Russia and is spreading at an alarming rate. Even the Moscow Times acknowledged "Russian schools generally offer little or no sex education, a factor that is believed to contribute to a high HIV infection rate from lack of awareness about sexually transmitted diseases." Silence = Death. So does willful ignorance.


http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/...-spreading-rapidly-scientists-say/488004.html

 

[TontoK]

This ^ x a zillion. I would be happier if they would, but they are not obligated to.

And no Bluebonnet, it's far from a dead horse. And it's already having unforeseen consequences-a new, more virulent strain of the HIV has emerged in Russia and is spreading at an alarming rate. Even the Moscow Times acknowledged "Russian schools generally offer little or no sex education, a factor that is believed to contribute to a high HIV infection rate from lack of awareness about sexually transmitted diseases." Silence = Death. So does willful ignorance.


http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/...-spreading-rapidly-scientists-say/488004.html

Sadly, I think we've found the one thing in the thread we can all probably agree on. This is a very tragic situation, one which makes our recent squabbles (mine certainly included) seem petty.

I'm leaving here to delete my previous posts, not that I believe I'm wrong, mind you, but because I don't think they're useful.

 

[ghislaine]

How insecure does one have to be to yearn for validation by athletes and celebrities?

For the record, I think "hetero-normative" means straight. As a member of the straight community, I reject such ridiculous psychological/sociological labeling.

Have we gotten so politically correct that we can't even say "straight" anymore?

Heteronormativity isn't synonymous with heterosexuality. Heterosexuality is a totally neutral term. Heteronormativity is the insistence that only heterosexuality is normal and any pushback against traditional gender stereotypes is wrong.

And it's not insecurity, it's just quite a good feeling to know that there are people like you out there, or at least people who won't spit on you in the street or write legislation to take away your rights.