Do you prefer Michelle Kwan before or after she left Frank+Lori?

[Rgirl]

Mathman,
You know, I talked to Michelle today and, forgive me, but I showed her your post. Michelle said, "My dear, silly Mathman! He doesn't even need forgiveness. After all, he was the first to truly appreciate my fingers as I do my spiral. I know without a doubt that Mathman is a fan--truly, madly, deeply. If it weren't for Brad, ah, who knows..." Her voice trailed off as she brushed her hair back with her fingers in such a way that made me know she was thinking of you
Rgirl

 

[mpal2]

Mathman will have happy dreams tonight!

 

[mzheng]

The first time I watched the Rush was last year after I read someone (rgirl?) mentioned in a post here. I liked it immediatly. It really show a diff MK before 2003 season. But I never got the MM, still don't like it.

A side question, just reviewed the 2001 GP final, where show Elena S. skated a very similar SP as she did last season. Was it the same program?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But I never got the MM, still don't like it.

mzheng - I can understand that. All art is subjective. Some people can not get anything after "The Old Masters"; some cannot enjoy ballet beyond Petipa; some can not appreciate pop culture beyond Elvis, etc., etc. (I personally, don't get Rap.)

In music (oh were oh where is Eltamina) Bartok is quite modern and so it is with MM. From what I've read a few of us saw the possibility of MK going into yet another realm of figure skating with MM but, alas she dropped it. So, I guess in figure skating the old warhorses are still galloping strong.

Joe

 

[shine]

Let's put it this way... I admired Michelle when she was doing inventive, thoughtful, and detailed programs choreographed by Nicol. But since around 2001, Nicol started having so many big name skaters and stopped the trend with Michelle. And now I feel Michelle is not picking the best choice by having Morozov as a choregrapher. His choregraphy as of late has been repetitive, and shall we say, lacking seriously in depth and thoughfulness IMO. But if she is content and happy with it, so be it.

 

[berthes ghost]

I just don't get it. I watched SOTBS again today and I just love that program, always have. The music was different and the choreo was nice IMHO. Also, despite the fact that EOE had been used before as an exhibition, I thought that the EOE SP was great. So, what's all this whining about going stale? I just don't see it.

I'll tell ya what I find boring and stale though: Schez and Tosca. Even Aranchez was mostly sucessful due to her delivery, not the choreo or the music.

 

[Rgirl]

Berthe's Ghost,
Maybe some people are talking about two different things that are difficult to separate: Michelle's delivery vs. the choreography. I too thought SOTBS was very interesting choreographically and musically, but to me Michelle never looked on top of it skating it. The performance felt somewhat forced and frantic to me. EOE suited her very well, I thought, I just am not a fan of that particular style. I agree that "Sheh," at least the version done at the Olympics, was pretty bland choreographically. With TFB and Aranjuez, I thought the great success was in how the choreography was interesting, suited Michelle's natural style of moving, and coincided with a leap she made in terms of the movement ability and core skating strength. A whole greater than the sum of its parts situation. Am wiitholding judgment on Tosca, though the second year after a breakthrough is often tough to live up to one's new expectations.

Anyway, I think it's possible, and in fact happens all the time in dance, to love the choreography and not the performance. Or think the dancer doesn't quite go witht he dance no matter how great she is. OTOH, the skater is the vehicle for the choreography so they're difficult to separate. It just seems to me from the change in her skating that Michelle was conflicted working with Frank and Lori from perhaps '00 to the split in fall '01. Lots of variables. I guess it bothered some people, not others. Duh, lol.
Rgirl

 

[Mathman]

Here is one factor that a friend of mine (and a friend of GS) recently suggested to me. Before the 2000 season Michelle had pretty much the full attention of both her coach and choreographer. But by the 2000-2001 season Lori was working with other top skaters, mainly Sale and Pelletier, and Michelle had to take a back seat. Then Frank Carole took on Tim Goebel, and something had to give there, too.

Now Morosov is doing everybody in sight. He has boasted that he spent less than two hours choreographing Michelle's programs.

This bodes well for Sasha Cohen this season. She has exclusive attention from Tarasova and Usova. As for past champions, Kristi had undivided attention from Ness (at the expense of Galindo?) Galina was totally devoted to Oksana. Richard Calaghan gave more attention to Tara (at the expense of Todd). Robin Wagner lived, breathed and coached only one student, Sarah. It was too bad that when MK had the full attention of Frank and Lori in 1998 she was recovering from a toe fracture.

Mathman

 

[heyang]

Richard Calaghan gave more attention to Tara (at the expense of Todd).

Actually, rumor has it that the Lipinski's felt that Calaghan never gave Tara enought attention and that Todd was his primary skater. It makes some sense in that Todd was perceived to be at the height of his eligible career whereas Tara was a favorite, but was assumed to have additional Olympics in her future.

 

[Rgirl]

Heyang--I read the same thing for basically the same reasons. It was also said that Callaghan had basically resigned himself to Michelle winning the OGM in '98 and that Tara's time would come in '02. The '98 Olympics were felt to be Todd's last chance and thus the alleged attention to Todd over Tara.

Mathman--Whatever the case with Tara and Callaghan, your general point about skaters with a dedicated coach is a good one. In fact, with Tara, one person who apparently did dedicate herself to Tara's '98 Olympic skate as much as possible was choreographer Sandra Bezic, and it was in terms of presentation and musicality that Tara seemed to improve her Olympic programs the most over her previous performances. Anyway, if I were Morosov, I wouldn't be boasting about anything just yet--other than just getting Michelle to notice him.
Rgirl

 

[Ogre Mage]

Now Morosov is doing everybody in sight. He has boasted that he spent less than two hours choreographing Michelle's programs.

This bodes well for Sasha Cohen this season. She has exclusive attention from Tarasova and Usova. As for past champions, Kristi had undivided attention from Ness (at the expense of Galindo?)
Mathman

Who is Usova? Is it Maya Usova, the ice dancer? I really enjoyed Usova/Zhulin during their amateur days. I agree that Tarasova is devoted to Sasha and Sasha also looks like she has been working hard. If Campbells was any indication, she's made tremendous strides.

It is true that Morosov is stretched thin. But at least Michelle has Scott's undivided attention.

I don't believe Ness ever coached Galindo. Jim Hulick coached Yamaguchi/Galindo in pairs, while Ness coached Kristi as a solo skater. I think Galindo's singles coach was Rick Inglesi, but he died of AIDS.

 

[berthes ghost]

Sorry Math, I don't buy a word of it.

Word on the street has MK busy with school and a little burned out and Frank wanting her to do more, be more involved.

Galina had Viktor at Lillehammer same time as Oksana.

Bezac complained to Brennan (and possibly others) that Team Tara ignored her after the first go round.

Tarasova coached two men to Oly gold while coaching everyone and their kid cousin at the same time.

Moskvina coached two pairs to gold and silver in 98.

I don't think there is any corrolation.

 

[Mathman]

Ogre Mage, yes, I was referring to Maya Usova. I have read that she is working as a coach now with Tarasova. Since Morosov left that group to work on his own, I think that Maya is getting more opportunity to do coaching and choreography for elite skaters. I'm am not sure whether she is working with Sasha.

Berthe's ghost, I bow to your superior recollections. I still wonder, though, about Michelle and Lori. I know that the announced reason for the break-up was that Lori, having pre-school children at home, was not willing to fly out to California to work with Michelle, and Michelle didn't want to fly back and forth to Toronto, either. But I also think that up to 1999, Lori was "Michelle Kwan's choreographer," that she was pleased to have been chosen for that role by Frank Carole, and that she put all of her creative enegies into designing and preparing Michelle's programs.

By the 2000-2001 season, however, Lori had become so much in demand that she had other clients that also demanded her attention -- Tim Goebel, Sale and Pelleitier, Jennifer Robinson, Fumie Siguri, Takeshi Honda, Jose Chouinard -- skaters whom she also loved working with and creating for. IMHO the programs that she did for Sale and Pelletier -- Love Story, Tristan and Isolde, Orchid, Come Rain or Come Shine and Jalousie -- were her creative masterpieces from 2000-2002, rather than the work she was doing with Michelle then.

BTW, I think that Lori's programs for Fumie are the best out there now. I hope that Fumie will be ale to skate up to them, and to the music, this season.

Mathman

 

[berthes ghost]

" I know that the announced reason for the break-up was that Lori, having pre-school children at home, was not willing to fly out to California to work with Michelle, and Michelle didn't want to fly back and forth to Toronto, either."

MK is at a point in her career where she can pretty much do as she pleases. Perhaps not wanting to go all the way to Canada for choreo, just as she didn't want to leave LA for a new coach, and stated in the beginning that she wanted a coach/choreo combo, and her reluctance to travel for GPs the past several years (She never even left the country last year to compete). I'm not saying she's a diva, I'm just saying perhaps she's big enough to call the shots and feels Mohamid should come to the mountain, not vice versa.

Another chink in the theory: people speculated that Sarah was too busy with SLC opening ceremonies etc.. to do Schez properly, and that NM is now spread too thin, so either MK has a knack for picking choreos that don't have time for her or (as I suspect) the "she's too busy to attend to me" theory of why Lori was dumped doesn't hold up.

I agree with you on Fumie. Also, Japan to Canada is travelable, but LA to Toronto is too far?

 

[BronzeisGolden]

Actually, I really don't think there is a need for much analysis on this issue. Michelle dabbled with Dean and Oppegard in 2000-2001 while still with Frank and Lori. This seems to indicate she was searching for something fresh. Can there be so many secret reasons behind it? Possibly, but I tend to think she just wanted to try something different. Michelle is no fool. She knew she needed to spice something up or stagnate.

 

[Ogre Mage]

SOTBS

Regarding the choreography vs. the skater's delivery, I personally found SOTBS to be lacking on both counts. I never could figure out what Nichol was trying to do with the piece or if a lot of the choreography had just been stripped out. Also, with the exception of 2001 Worlds I wasn't impressed with Michelle's delivery of this number.

 

[BronzeisGolden]

Ogre Mage,

I agree about SOTBS, somewhat. I didn't like this program during the Grand Prix. It just did nothing for me. It wasn't a lack of choreography...I believe it was the delivery. Despite a small mistake on the 3/3, she performed it very well at the 2001 Nationals. She had more spark and energy than she had had at Skate America of Skate Canada. Worlds was even better. So, it never became a classic for me, but she did make me respect and eventually like it after both Nationals and Worlds.

 

[Jimmy Hoffa]

One of the main criticisms of SOTBS when she first debuted it was that it was a lot of skating back and forth across the ice and that all the spins and a lot of the jumps were all put in the same place. The best delivery can't do anything about that. That problem appeared to be rectified by Nationals and Worlds, yet some Canadian skating fans who apparently know Nichol personally said that Nichol was angry that Michelle changed her program around. Maybe that's why they split up.

As for Kwan's programs being bare, well, I guess I'm the only one who remembers the constant complaints that Kwan had "too much" going on in her programs, that she was "too slow", and that she needed to get rid of the "extraraneous movements" and concentrate on her speed, incidentally strengths of Tara Lipinski and Irina Slutskaya, because speed was more important than choreography. I guess speed-above-all is no longer a requirement, now than Lipinski is gone and Slutskaya has slipped quite a bit.

 

[Mathman]

Michelle's performance of the Song of the Black Swan at World's was one of her greatest triumphs. Yes, as Jimmy Hoffa points out, she had struggled with the choreography and, in my opinion, with the music all season, never really getting it right all year. Then at World's she faced a potential disaster when the heel of her boot broke and she had to skate the qualifying round on equipment basically held together with a four-inch nail.

That was when Michelle sucked up her guts and came out with (yet another) performance of a lifetime.

Mathman

 

[nymkfan51]

You're right Mathman ... that was one gutsy performance!

It's kind of funny ... all this talk of before or after Lori/Frank. I just look at this as someone changing as they become an adult. Yes, Michelle skated to music noone else had ... and that was wonderful. But that doesn't mean for the rest of her career that she must choose music never used before. Same thing with the content in her programs ... maybe they were more jam packed in the past ... but this is now, and maybe this is what she wants.
I have the feeling that Michelle is just pacing herself right now. Skating has been the main focus in her life for so many years, and after going thru her 2 Olympic heartbreaks ... my feeling is she was very close to walking away from it. The thing is (I think), that she wasn't quite ready to hang them up yet ... and maybe this more laid back approach is helping her have it all ... things to do away from skating ... and still being at or near the top at most events.
One thing I am sure of with Michelle is that she knows her body and she plots out her season better than any I have ever seen. My thinking is "IF" she decides to stay until 2006 ... we will see one heck of a show!!!