Does anyone think Michelle has a chance?

[Doggygirl]

I think what got Kwan fans all riled up is that the rules on spin levels under the CoP happen to reward something that Irina is good at and Michelle isn't. To me, this is a complaint about how the NJS rules were implemented last year, not a criticism of Irina.

Hi MM. You know what? If every die hard Kwan fan had qualified their Biellmann comments as you did, I would personally have no ire at all. (which is not what happened, and who gives a rat's #@&* what I think anyway! )

But mean time....I'm working REALLY hard to get over it.

 

[mememe]

What a neat site. I see that Ulrich Salchow actually finished second to teammate Richard Johanson in free skating in 1908, but won overall because he won the figures part.

I saw Victor Petrenko do an Iron Cross as part of an exhibition number in COI a couple of years ago.

MM

Boitano did a Maltese Cross as part of his technical program ("The Prayer") during the 1999-2000 season. And Brian Orser did some figures as part of one of his programs, too, I just can't remember which one.

And how about Richard Dwyer -- Mr. Debonair -- who would skate practically all year around, 8-12 shows per week, starting when he was still just a teenager and joined Ice Capades and Holiday on Ice? Those "oldsters" had to skate a lot more than today's skaters do, under less-than-ideal circumnstances. Richard even did some pair skating as well. (Oh, and Richard also managed to graduate from high school AND recently from college, although he spent two or three of his high school years traveling the country -- he'd go to school two weeks in one city while Capades was playing there, then two-to-three weeks in another city, while the show played there -- go to school in the mornings, arrive early afternoon at the rink to practice and then perform (sometimes 2-3 shows in a day), then back to school the next morning.

I tend to think someone like that would have achieved a lot had he been born 40 years later and had some of the opportunities today's skaters do!

Isn't it great to have wonderful "oldsters" AND great "today's skaters" to watch and enjoy?

MM -- I enjoy your posts -- you have a lot of interesting ideas and viewpoints!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Ulrich Salchow is THE MAN!

And check out Jackson Haines, the American who could spin in a sit position which he invented. Do you think Evgeni will ever get down all the way?

Joe

 

[mzheng]

I'm sure I over reacted, and for that I apologize. In general, and in my opinion, many vigorous Kwan fans since Worlds have basically beaten Irina up for using the Biellmann to garner points, as if that is in some way "unfair" even though Irina's strategy was within the rules. So, my apologies to all.

DG

That's not true. Even before the worlds I read the posts beaten 'Bielmman Every where' to death. Not all from vigorous Kwan fans. Some from vigorous Irina fans as well. And I knew one of a very knowledgebale Irina fan at ISU was first to critisize. So please don't generalize. And many figure skating fans who happened to have watched FS for over 40/50 years are Kwan fans as well. Some may just see the NJS is not what FS used to be judged. I never said it is 'unfair', if Irina can do all the Bielmanns to milk the points, more power to her. But rules are set by ppl and interpreted by ppl, any new system is open to critisizing and improving. Even the old 6.0 system I believe took long time to evolve. You can't devalue the critisizing of 'Bielmman Every where' just because vigorous Kwan fans said it. What about veriaty movements and well balanced constructed program, no validation anymore? You are tired of vigorous Kwan fans comments on 'Bielmann Position Every Where'. I'm tired of vigorous 'Anyone but Kwan' attitude as well.

 

[R.D.]

If I understand correctly she said MANY vigorous Kwan fans, not ALL vigorous Kwan fans. And as I pointed out earlier Kwan fans aren't the only ones criticizing this point-value system. Why get on the offense?

 

[Excidra2001]

Mzeng,

I could be wrong, but i've noticed(from quoting your posts) that you get really offended when someone either questions your post or parts of it, or does not agree with it entirely. You claim so and so is taking the post out of context.
You also have tendency to stick up for some posters, who happen to be Michelle fans. I do not know why, but I have seen that from you. This is a message board and you will always have people disagreeing with each other and at the end of the day they move on because its just the internet, nobody forms little cliques in hopes to go up against someone else.

 

[mzheng]

If I understand correctly she said MANY vigorous Kwan fans, not ALL vigorous Kwan fans. And as I pointed out earlier Kwan fans aren't the only ones criticizing this point-value system. Why get on the offense?

Please re-read my post. I started with the critisizing of 'B position every where' not all from vigorous MK fans after worlds. The critisizing started before the worlds and some were from vigorous IS fans as well.

 

[mzheng]

Mzeng,

I could be wrong, but i've noticed(from quoting your posts) that you get really offended when someone either questions your post or parts of it, or does not agree with it entirely.
You also have tendency to stick up for some posters, who happen to be Michelle fans. I do not know why, but I get that vibe from you. This is a message board and you will always have people disagreeing with each other and at the end of the day they move on because its just the internet, nobody forms little cliques in hopes to go up against someone else.

Yes. You were wrong. I don't like someone just jump in the mid took the sentance out of the context argument for the sake of argument. That's what you did to one of my post at another thread (seems you formed little cliques, you know it and I knew it. Don't even try to deny)...I thought 'why bother' then. I should've taken my instinct why bother now.

 

[Excidra2001]

Yes. You were wrong. I don't like someone just jump in the mid took the sentance out of the context argument for the sake of argument. That's what you did to one of my post at another thread (seems you formed little cliques, you know it and I knew it. Don't even try to deny)...I thought 'why bother' then. I should've taken my instinct why bother now.

I really do not understand what you are saying to me but are you trying to say that I argue with you for the sake of argueing? Most of the time I agree with your posts, the times that I do not, I don't expect you to be offended by it.
I think its safe to say that, although I respect the members on this board, I am not friends with any of them nor do I contact them outside this board. So I fail to see the "clique thing".

 

[antmanb]

Not true. Sasha received a L3 in the LP, and she does not do the Biellmann. The '04/05 rules list 4 criteria, of which 3 must be met for an L3. One of the 4 references a Biellmann position specific to the Layback, but the other 3 do not reference Biellmann at all, and DID represent 3 ways to meet the criteria sans Beillmann. If I understand the 05/06 rules correctly, more criteria have been added specifically to the Biellmann positions in both spins and spirals for them to count (foot must be all the way over the head before revs on spins or seconds on spirals are counted) which I suspect might make things more challenging for Irina and others capable of the Biellmann position next season.

I'm sure I over reacted, and for that I apologize. In general, and in my opinion, many vigorous Kwan fans since Worlds have basically beaten Irina up for using the Biellmann to garner points, as if that is in some way "unfair" even though Irina's strategy was within the rules. So, my apologies to all.

DG

Thanks for that. Just for the record - I'm a vigorous skating fan and i've written in this thread about my two favourites and contrasted another i'm not overly enthusiastic about. I don't think racking up points under CoP to garner maximum points is unfair - that's the point of the new system, i don't even particularly have a huge problem with the Biellmann per se, i question the rules where it comes from where one particular move that favours the flexible can be used in both steps sequences and spins to up the level when it basically means repeating the same thing over and over will keep getting you points everytime you do it. The reason i question something like the Biellmann being used an an enhancer over say number of rotations in a spin in total is that the Biellmann is not a particularly skating specific skill whereas being able to hold a spin for 20 revolutions is a skating skill (for the record its one i think Irina would excel at as well!) and i would prefer to see number of revolutions as an enhanver for the CoP levels.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

MM - Does that mean you've changed your mind about the old timers in skating and that they are very much in comparison with those of today? I'll take Dorothy's Delayed Axel over most of the 3As I've seen in our modern time. It's an esthetic thing.

Joe

Or how about Robin Counsins' delayed axel followed by tuck axel?

Some more things that CoP doesn't value and skaters can't risk throwing them in for choreographic purposes incase it uses up one of their precious jumping passes...shame.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

LETS BE CAREFUL OF FAN BASHING.​

It's against the Golden Skate Rules. I know the Olys are coming, and we tend to get nervous about what we are saying leading up to them. But they are still a long way to go. Think about the upcoming GPs, the first of which is just about 3 months away.

I believe in order to get into the Bielman position, one must have a particular kind of body or begin working on the flexibility of getting a Bielman at age 3. There is some truth in what sportswriters say that Figure Skating is a little girls sport. Check out the upcoming various nationals around the world especially in the very young age groups. I think you will see lots and lots of Bielmans - some good - some not so good. The ISU decided to make it a high level position and those tots know this. It will become quite common by Olys 2010.

The question at hand is really: Will Kimmie come in with a Bielman? and together with the 3A, well.....

Joe

 

[antmanb]

LETS BE CAREFUL OF FAN BASHING.​

It's against the Golden Skate Rules. I know the Olys are coming, and we tend to get nervous about what we are saying leading up to them. But they are still a long way to go. Think about the upcoming GPs, the first of which is just about 3 months away.

I believe in order to get into the Bielman position, one must have a particular kind of body or begin working on the flexibility of getting a Bielman at age 3. There is some truth in what sportswriters say that Figure Skating is a little girls sport. Check out the upcoming various nationals around the world especially in the very young age groups. I think you will see lots and lots of Bielmans - some good - some not so good. The ISU decided to make it a high level position and those tots know this. It will become quite common by Olys 2010.

The question at hand is really: Will Kimmie come in with a Bielman? and together with the 3A, well.....

Joe

Reports on other forums and boards from the summer competitions is that there isn't a girl in the lower ranks who isn't trying either a Biellmann spin or spiral or a catch foot spin or spiral...reports are that they are rarely done well, often not managing the "foot above the head" required and very sloppily getting into and out of the position. Equally poor chage of edge spirals are prevailing with many skaters struggling to hold the edge following the change for long enough.

Therein lies the problem with CoP - by the time 2010 comes around watching the LP in singles is going to be like watching a compulsory dance...at least even though the moves will be the same we'll get different music

Let's hope they do some serious revamping of the CoP after the Olys.

Ant

 

[mzheng]

i would prefer to see number of revolutions as an enhanver for the CoP levels.

Ant

IIRC, it is reflected in GOE. More than required revolutions is one of the critirias to get +3 GOE in spins (at least by the old spec).

 

[mzheng]

Reports on other forums and boards from the summer competitions is that there isn't a girl in the lower ranks who isn't trying either a Biellmann spin or spiral or a catch foot spin or spiral...reports are that they are rarely done well, often not managing the "foot above the head" required and very sloppily getting into and out of the position. Equally poor chage of edge spirals are prevailing with many skaters struggling to hold the edge following the change for long enough.

Therein lies the problem with CoP - by the time 2010 comes around watching the LP in singles is going to be like watching a compulsory dance...at least even though the moves will be the same we'll get different music

Let's hope they do some serious revamping of the CoP after the Olys.

Ant

IMO, the CoP Spec on these elements will be going through changes over years, just like gymnastics. It was said in gymnastics the upgrade/downgrade the levels of some movements every a few years, most time after the Olympics. Onece a presumed difficult movement is used by majority it's level could be downgraded.

It was said the way that ISU just made somewhat siganificant changes in NJS in this Olympics season is not common seen in gymnastics. But again the NJS was just officially used in last worlds. It is understandable there need be some changes in the following season. I'd expect once NJS got smooth out, ISU will implement those timetable like the way gymnastics system.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Therein lies the problem with CoP - by the time 2010 comes around watching the LP in singles is going to be like watching a compulsory dance...at least even though the moves will be the same we'll get different music

First, I don't think this is a problem with CoP. It's an issue of "follow success." I've sat through plenty of awful COE spirals during the 6.0 era after it became Kwan's signature move. Weak versions of Cohen's I-spin also began during the 6.0 era. The classic layback became optional once Kwan was able to win with the drop leg version.

The other thing is that I don't think this is such a problem. Compulsory dances are the way to compare each team doing the exact same thing, instead of comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Doggygirl]

Thanks for that. Just for the record - I'm a vigorous skating fan and i've written in this thread about my two favourites and contrasted another i'm not overly enthusiastic about. I don't think racking up points under CoP to garner maximum points is unfair - that's the point of the new system, i don't even particularly have a huge problem with the Biellmann per se, i question the rules where it comes from where one particular move that favours the flexible can be used in both steps sequences and spins to up the level when it basically means repeating the same thing over and over will keep getting you points everytime you do it. The reason i question something like the Biellmann being used an an enhancer over say number of rotations in a spin in total is that the Biellmann is not a particularly skating specific skill whereas being able to hold a spin for 20 revolutions is a skating skill (for the record its one i think Irina would excel at as well!) and i would prefer to see number of revolutions as an enhanver for the CoP levels.

Ant

ITA with you about the skating skills recognition. I think in it's own way, this does take place as it must be more difficult to keep a spin centered, fast, with many revolutions in a more difficult position with respect to balance, etc. than an easier one. I would like to see more skaters (especially ladies - IMO the men overall have been more innovative here i.e. Weir, Lambiel, Buttle, Sawyer and that amazing split thing he does...) come up with interesting and difficult positions that suit their capabilities/ body type. AND hold them long, fast, centered, etc. I think there is lots of room for more innovation among many of the ladies - and I hope they are all working on some amazing new moves that will surprise and delight us.

Irina's strength this past season in terms of utilizing the difficult Biellmann position to her advantage should highlight a big opportunity for others next season. If that level of difficulty can be achieved while using a wider variety of moves, I sure hope that type of strategy would be rewarded on the PCS side of things.

Sorry again about that out of control nerve.

DG

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't believe anyone is really knocking Irina's Bielman spin, although some are questioning the travelling in the spin. What some posters are questioning is the no classic spiral, and just the Bielman position spirals.

I am sure Irina and her fans know she is outclassed in the classical spiral field and therefore the Bielmans are not only justifiable but point gathering. Why not?

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

I don't believe anyone is really knocking Irina's Bielman spin, although some are questioning the travelling in the spin.
Joe

ITA with that. I'm not sure the proper GOE scores were given - some of those travels were pretty bad. I think that sort of thing falls in the same category as flutzing, and probably some other common infractions. I hope the judges start applying the scoring appropriately, which should then motivate the skaters to correct these problems.

DG

 

[hockeyfan228]

Remember that the Biellmann spiral was used successfully by Shizuka Arakawa in her World Championship Turandot program in 2004, and that it was choreographed by Tarasova, a friend of Gromova, Slutskaya's coach. Arakawa's spiral was rated a L1 at Trophee Lalique and L3 at GPF under CoP. (I don't have tapes of both programs to see how or if the spiral changed.) Slutskaya is not the first top skater to use it in the spiral sequence, but it plays to her strengths, not her weaknesses like the traditional spiral.