Double Axel in Both Directions

[Ladskater]

Karen Magnussen was the only skater I know of that did all her jumps and spins in both directions - in those days it was thought better for skaters development to do everything in both directions.

Jeff Buttle does his spins in both directions. It looks great.

 

[antmanb]

Who are the (i think ) US pairs skaters where the lady does elements to both sides? I seem to recall it might be the pair that have been trying a the quad salchow. I seem to remember watching a clip of their GPs last season and noticing that the throw jumps were in one direction but the split twist was in the other direction?

Is that right or have i mis-remembered?

Ant

 

[mskater93]

Why not consider the two jumps as one jump pass. That Japanese skater from the 70s deserved it.

They are two separate jump passes under IJS because of the step or turn forward to make it happen.

 

[beep_beep]

Who are the (i think ) US pairs skaters where the lady does elements to both sides? I seem to recall it might be the pair that have been trying a the quad salchow. I seem to remember watching a clip of their GPs last season and noticing that the throw jumps were in one direction but the split twist was in the other direction?

Is that right or have i mis-remembered?

Ant

Yeah, you're right.
Those are Tiffany Vise & Derek Trent

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

They are two separate jump passes under IJS because of the step or turn forward to make it happen.

bleh...

 

[bethissoawesome]

Don't give up! It is exactly when someone says "don't" that the chance for memorable greatness is lost. (um... obviously getting yelled out doesn't sound fun... and obviously discouraging)... but I would hope that someone would just say... I will keep on trying until my axels are so good in BOTH directions that it almost doesn't become an 'issue' whether one should try. Think of the average age of the judging panel... superlative axels in both directions is bound to be memorable and IF THEY ARE GOOD... REALLY good... then should ultimately be rewarded somehow in the component mark... end of rant... just my opinion.

Can you tell I'm not just nostalgic for some of the really cool stuff from the past, but just so completely bored sick by the same old same old over and over and over again.... yeesh.... ADVANCE THE SPORT!

It would be interesting if they could encourage this under CoP... maybe by adding extra GOE points or an extra multiplier if someone completes a clean jump with a rotation other than their norm.

 

[gkelly]

How about an extra multiplier or point bonus for doing a jump combination *or sequence* in both directions, and define sequence in such a way that it's possible to take at least one step or edge change while changing directions and have it count.

I wouldn't just credit someone with doing one jump in the opposite direction, because maybe that's the way they prefer to do their jumps. E.g., Sonja Henie did her lutzes CW and her axels CCW.

 

[mskater93]

It would be interesting if they could encourage this under CoP... maybe by adding extra GOE points or an extra multiplier if someone completes a clean jump with a rotation other than their norm.

The first year of IJS, I believe Rohene DID do either a double Axel in both directions or a 3S in both directions and he ended up with NEGATIVE GOE for the quality of his CW jump. That's when he stopped including them

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

They are two separate jump passes under IJS because of the step or turn forward to make it happen.

And the question was raised: Did that enhance the balletic nature of figure skating? and everything else that is forced by rules and regulations?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

How about an extra multiplier or point bonus for doing a jump combination *or sequence* in both directions, and define sequence in such a way that it's possible to take at least one step or edge change while changing directions and have it count.

I wouldn't just credit someone with doing one jump in the opposite direction, because maybe that's the way they prefer to do their jumps. E.g., Sonja Henie did her lutzes CW and her axels CCW.

We are talking about the same jump in two different directions - one to the left; one to the right. Not two different jumps. The same ISU definitions.

Why not give full base credit for both jumps? That's in line with the regulations of scoring a jump. Those who get nervous about breaking rules could relax. Considering it as one jump pass is another matter and one which I believe it should be. Others who can not conceive variety unless the ISU deems variety to be important can complain. :sheesh:, it's just a suggestion. Why bring up an extra point just for variety. It's a whole actual jump!

 

[gkelly]

Why not give full base credit for both jumps? That's in line with the regulations of scoring a jump. Those who get nervous about breaking rules could relax. Considering it as one jump pass is another matter and one which I believe it should be. Others who can not conceive variety unless the ISU deems variety to be important can complain. , it's just a suggestion. Why bring up an extra point just for variety. It's a whole actual jump!

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. That there should be no extra credit for jumps in the opposite direction? That is already the case.

Which means that there is no incentive to do a jump the other way because it's a lot more difficult and a lot more likely to be poorer quality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLA2a0xv9UA
See this example of single axels in both directions, at about 4:10 into the clip.

Also there is a limit on the total number of jump passes a skater is allowed to include. So it would be wasting a jump pass to use one pass for an opposite-direction jump that will probably deserve lower GOE and likely be of lower base value than some other jump that could have been used in that slot.

Ladies who can do all the triples except triple axel but can't do 3-3 combos need all the jump slots allowed to get in all the triples they're capable of with two repeats. They only have 7 jump slots and are required to do some sort of axel jump, so if they want to do 7 triples they either need to do at least one triple-triple or they need to combine on of those triples with an axel in some fashion.

Men get 8 jump slots, so those who can do triple axels and also can do at least two 3-3 combinations and don't have quads, they can easily use up their triple jumps in 6 jump passes and have 2 more passes left to fill. They could just do regular double axels in both, or they could use one of those passes as a "throwaway" on a jump with a lower base value, single or other double jump with some enhancement in the air position, etc., aiming at highest possible GOE. Or a single or double jump in the opposite direction. But why bother if it would end up being worth less (because of lower GOE) than the same jump in the good direction?

Therefore, even skaters who can do opposite direction jumps choose not to. (Except for reverse walleys, because they're not listed jumps so they don't use up jump passes and make for nice transitions.)

You want to see any jumps in the opposite direction, for the sake of variety -- not necessarily axels and not necessarily in connection with the same jump in the regular direction? Build some reward for the difficulty into the point system.

 

[Mathman]

^ I took Joe's suggestion to mean that you get to do an extra jump (beyond the allowed number of jumping passes and combinations) if you do the same jump over again in the opposite direction (also no Zayak penalty.)

So, for instance, a lady could do her full complement of six jumping passes, then do a pair of double Axels as her seventh pass and get full credit for both.

That way, even if the wrong way jump was not as good as the right way jump, still you could get an extra 3.5 points (minus GOE) for the extra Axel.

The biggest drawback to this plan, as I see it, is -- whatever the CoP rewards, that's what skaters will do. If you give them extra points for doing an opposite-direction jump, it will be like Bielmann's a couple of years ago. Everyone and his monkey will be doing it, whether they are able to or not.

Michelle Kwan put spins in both directions into some of her programs (and was praised for doing so.) But her clockwise spins were not as good as her counterclockwise spins, so even in the pre-CoP era she eventually dropped that novelty.

 

[tripleflutz]

4 2A in a row

I once saw IRINA SLUTSKAYA do four 2a in a row after she had finished her performance at the charity show up in Boston that used to be broadcast on PBS. They asked her to do some moe so she did four 2a in a circle, making it look very easy.

 

[mskater93]

3 or 4 2A in a row is a standard training pattern here with the Russian borm coaches as part of a warm up for skaters with triples. If they were in opposite directions, well, then

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Multiple jumps going to the skaters favorite side are quite common. It's when a skater jumps to a non-favorite side and then to the favorite side that the difficulty arises, at least in double and triple jumps. A double Lutz (not flutz) to one side and without a step even a double lutz (not flutz) to the other. Now, that's Sport, and if done correctly with music could be quite beautiful. One can imagine the difficulty in a double axel to both sides. I think Ward shows this wthout difficulty in the clip, but trust me all you skaters, try a single salchow in each direction just to test it out. Double axels are difficult.

I don't know if there are spinning passes but why not show spins to both sides?
they allow footwork to both sides and from what I see few really can do that.

What is the point of making figure skating easy?

However, there is no way the CoP will relent to give a permission to exceed the number of passes a skater may take in one program.

Of course if they decid to give ita plus 1 GoE, then the skater who did a wrong edge take off somewhere could get the point back. And the easy beat goes on!

 

[mskater93]

I don't know if there are spinning passes but why not show spins to both sides?
they allow footwork to both sides and from what I see few really can do that.
What is the point of making figure skating easy?

For a step sequence to be considered anything higher than L1, turns have to be in both directions. MIF are taught bi-laterally (and required to be tested that way) as well and to be almost equal in sides.

Currently you get three spin boxes. Spins in your non-rotational direction are hard because your inner ear isn't used to it and you tend to be dizzy (once you've figured out how to do it). This makes the next couple steps crummy, typically. It also tends to be slower and the position not as good (so a GOE killer). A spin in the opposite direction gets a level if completed by the skater in the same spin (so, for example, combo spin including a push over and at least 2 revs in your opposite direction is a level for that). At the Intermediate level last year, there were two skaters who had combo spins that spun in both directions and the level was called at Regionals and several local competitions. There was also a Masters Junior skater at Adult Nationals who received the level call on 2 of her spins - her change combination and her change foot upright spin for spinning in both directions.

 

[Mathman]

I don't know if there are spinning passes but why not show spins to both sides?

What is the point of making figure skating easy?

Here's Klimkin doing a Camel spin in both directions (at the 2:00 mark).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM8OCfullAM

As Mskater mentions, yes, there are "spinning passes." The new rules for the 2008-09 season cut it down to three spins. It used to be four.

From everything I've read, the skaters like the new rules, with one fewer spins. Spinning takes a lot of energy and a lot of time, and you can't score very many CoP points no matter how many "levels" you get. As I understand it, the point of decreasing the number of spins was to give the skaters more time to do their choreography, transitions and interpretation.

The ISU giveth and the ISU taketh away.

 

[mskater93]

The max points for one spin is 3.5 points (+ GOEs) and that is the change combination spin. That's only the same as a double Axel. It's great as an adult - where your biggest jump is a 2Lz.

 

[antmanb]

We are talking about the same jump in two different directions - one to the left; one to the right. Not two different jumps. The same ISU definitions.

Why not give full base credit for both jumps? That's in line with the regulations of scoring a jump. Those who get nervous about breaking rules could relax. Considering it as one jump pass is another matter and one which I believe it should be. Others who can not conceive variety unless the ISU deems variety to be important can complain. :sheesh:, it's just a suggestion. Why bring up an extra point just for variety. It's a whole actual jump!

But if a triple jump done to your non dominant direction only recieved base value, the difficulty in learning and getting this jump consistent would probably not pay off. It takes up a lot of training time to learn something as difficult as a triple jump in the other direction and without some kind of extra point, doesn't make it worth it. Would it count for Zayak purposes? If so then why risk a jump that is most likely a week one for no added point benefit?

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But if a triple jump done to your non dominant direction only recieved base value, the difficulty in learning and getting this jump consistent would probably not pay off. It takes up a lot of training time to learn something as difficult as a triple jump in the other direction and without some kind of extra point, doesn't make it worth it. Would it count for Zayak purposes? If so then why risk a jump that is most likely a week one for no added point benefit?Ant

Your view is well taken. I'm just suggesting a triple jump in a non dominant direction (after the same jump in a dominant direction) get the base value at least. Addional GoEs, would be better especially if a judge could not tell the difference between a dominant and non-dominant side.