Elvis vs Ilia 1998

[pangtongfan]

An alternate universe :think: Do you think GS is the real world

If we compare their records Elvis won three WC's and three other Worlds medals and two OSM's.

What did Ilia win in his career? His record is not even as good as Tara's as a competitive skater.

And if Ilia was such a titan of skating I certainly didn't see it at Nagano. Do we blame his program or was it more about his lack of musicality or a little of both?

Comparing lines is always easy as Elvis was short and built like a bull.
But he did the best with what he had. I saw him Live a couple of times and none of the guys I ever saw projected as much energy to the crowd as Elvis.

When we talk about the innovators it is Elvis who was first with jump combos many of the guys still can't do today.

Funny, because I have never been much of a fan but Elvis certainly worked hard to earn his place in skating history.

You have a very short memory. Elvis's 97 World title was gifted to him by Urmanov's withdrawal (Alexei would have had to only come 2nd in the long to win which would have been easy seeing the skating that night), as well as the meltdowns of Eldredge and Kulik in the long program. He skated cleanly in the short and still placed only 4th so obviously was never set to win that Worlds and go into the Olympic season as World Champion in the first place. If anyone was lucky it was him.

Yeah Elvis won alot but it is mostly the inconsistency of Urmanov and Kulik. Those two skating cleanly would always beat him, but almost never produced. When they did they always beat Stojko- 94 Olympics, 96 Grand Prix final, 96 Worlds, 98 Olympics, etc..The only rival of Stojko who was consistent was Eldredge, but he just wasnt good enough. Had Elvis been born 4 or 5 years earlier or later he woud have won virtually nothing, in the Petrenko-Browning or Yagudin-Plushenko eras. He won his titles over rivals who were either headcases (Urmanov, Kulik) or second tier skaters (Eldredge, Zagorodniuk, Candelero).

 

[gkelly]

I wouldn't say that Eldredge was a second tier skater. In the 1995-98 quadrennium he was one of the best in the world.

He just had some unfortunate mistakes important events that kept him from winning an Olympic medal, or World gold more than once, and he didn't have a quad during a period when enough guys were starting to try it that some of them could beat him by landing it.

 

[Mathman]

But for the short program, where do...n happened in the middle placements, though.)

 

[Mathman]

You want musical? I'll give you musical!

Rockit!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8quRa2YB6Z8

 

[gkelly]

Do you happen to know a link to the judges' scores for that interesting scenario? Quite unusual (I would imagine) to have to go to majority of thirds to determine the winner. (Things like this often happened in the middle placements, though.)

Not really. I think the link to the company that posted the protocols ca. 1997-98 was only up for a year or two. In the meantime I had saved them on the hard drive of my computer at the time, but I didn't save them again when I got rid of that computer about 10 years ago.

I was able to dig up an old document where I had typed out the ordinals, with only letters instead of skaters names, in order of (SP) finish. So I can show you what the ordinals were but not the actual scores and can't identify the judges. The Wikipedia link in my previous post will identify the skaters. OK, I'll type in the names:

Kulik 3 2 3 1 1 3 1 5 4
Hollander 1 3 1 6 6 2 7 4 1
Honda 4 1 2 5 4 1 4 3 3
Guo 5 7 5 2 2 4 5 1 2
Davis 2 4 4 8 7 8 6 2 6
Okazaki 7 10 8 3 3 6 2 6 8
Vlascenko 6 5 9 4 5 7 8 7 5
Dmitrenko 8 9 7 7 8 5 3 8 7
Cerez 10 8 6 9 9 11 10 10 9
Tamura 9 6 10 12 10 9 9 9 12
Skorniakov 12 12 11 11 11 10 12 11 11
Hebert 11 11 12 10 12 12 11 12 10

 

[Mathman]

^ Good grief!

I can see how the judges might be split about how to rank Kulik, if he was the best overall but popped his Axel.

But Dan Hollander (one of my all-time faves, by the way), got three 1st place ordinals together with two 6ths and a 7th!

 

[silverpond]

Guys, please keep the discussion of men's skating in the 1990's here? The thread drift on the Ashley thread was too crazy to follow, so I split it and moved Ilia, Elvis, and Urmanov here.

Thanks for separating this discussion from the Ashley Wagner thread, Doris. I posted commented on the Wagner thread, but I'd like to add them to this thread.

IMHO, Ilia Kulik's "cow" costume had absolutely no connection with his Gershwin music; however, he did land the quads, and that won him the gold medal. His artistry was not the best, probably due to the fact that he was only 20 at the time and still a "young" skater from that perspective. So, even though his shirt was possibly not an inspiring costume choice, it certainly did not detract from his performance, in the minds of the judges.

Had Elvis Stokjo been healthy and injury-free, AND had he landed all of his jumps, I think he might have won the gold medal. If, if, if.....unfortunately, he missed his first triple axel combination and did not attempt a quad. Stokjo's artistry was usually disrespected, or at least not particularly appreciated, by the judges, as he wasn't an elegant skater. He was strong, athletic, aggressive, and skated with a lot of power. Personally, I thought he was great, and I was rooting for him to win gold at Nagano. His costume - with the fringe belt - complimented his Bruce Lee music.

 

[blue_idealist]

Kulik is pretty good, but I was never a huge fan. One thing that drove me crazy about him is the way he held his arms out to the sides while he was skating, although admittedly a lot more skaters held their arms in those positions during the '90s than now. I think that Elvis would have won the OGM if he hadn't been injured, since he probably would have landed the quad..

 

[pangtongfan]

I wouldn't say that Eldredge was a second tier skater. In the 1995-98 quadrennium he was one of the best in the world.

He just had some unfortunate mistakes important events that kept him from winning an Olympic medal, or World gold more than once, and he didn't have a quad during a period when enough guys were starting to try it that some of them could beat him by landing it.

You overrate Todd. He was the best of the second tier. He was never up there with Elvis, he only beat Elvis once in competition from 92-2000. He was more consistent than Kulik and Urmanov but they had the ability to rise and win big events when they skated well which he didnt.

Also Elvis, Urmanov, and Kulik did not need quads to beat a clean Eldredge. If they skated well they would beat Todd everytime, quad or no quad. Hence why Stojko who was consistent almost never lost to Todd.

Todd won his World title since Stojko and Urmanov bombed one program each, while Kulik left out his second triple-triple combination (Todd did two and Kulik had two planned) and had a deduction for the Zayak rule along with another triple discounted and still lost only a split vote.


Back to Elvis and Kullik from 98 why would the quad have given Elvis the gold. Kulik also did a quad that night, and Stojko was never going to win it on artistic scores. In the short program where the 1st mark is the tiebreaker and Kulik's poor spins are a bigger part of the scores, Kulik still won over a clean Elvis, so in the long Elvis was never beating a clean Kulik unless he had a 2nd or possibly 3rd quad to throw. Healthy and skating cleanly with a quad he probably would have won the Canadian and American judges, and that is it.

 

[iluvtodd]

I wouldn't say that Eldredge was a second tier skater. In the 1995-98 quadrennium he was one of the best in the world.

He just had some unfortunate mistakes important events that kept him from winning an Olympic medal, or World gold more than once, and he didn't have a quad during a period when enough guys were starting to try it that some of them could beat him by landing it.

Thank you! A total of six World medals isn't shabby, either. That sixth one (bronze in 2002) should have been no less than silver, but that's a whole other discussion).

I'm not in a position to judge technical ability, but I felt that Ilia deserved his gold medal in Nagano. Hey, the costume didn't even bother me, ! Ilia went on to become an amazing pro, so all is good.

I always admired and liked Elvis, so I'm glad he did so well on the world stage. While he was not as "artistic" as the other guys, his technical ability was amazing in his top seasons.

 

[Olympia]

I always admired Elvis also. His build was not ideal for what's generally thought of as artistic skating, but I think that added to his appeal. I enjoy it when someone from outside the standard physical box for skating—male or female—makes good, and Elvis certainly did so. His success was achieved on his own terms and was not a fluke. Everyone doesn't have to flow like a leopard to express music. In fact, his physique was kind of the male equivalent of Midori Ito: compact, short limbs, but with its own kind of grace. Vive la difference! He's nowhere near the top of my list (those spots are reserved for Browning, Yagudin, Curry, Wylie, and Takahashi thus far), but I found Elvis plenty impressive, and on at least one occasion he actually moved me to tears. (It was in 1993 or 1994, when he was injured and still skated his best.)

The guy was electric to watch. There are precious few of those in any sport.

 

[jcoates]

Wow this thread is a total time warp. Just when I'd managed to scrub my memory of that awful decade of men's eligible skating, the memories all come flooding back.

Regarding Elvis vs Ilia in Nagano, from an objective standpoint, there really was no contest. I never liked either of their skating, so I think I can say this fairly confidently. Virtually everything Stojko did looked forced, while Kulik had much more ease about him, particularly with his stroking, jumping and edges. Both were weak spinners, but for different reasons. Stojko lacked flexibility (even for basic spinning positions) and variety but had good speed with the positions he did achieve. Kulik had good to decent positions and better variety but not the best speed. The same comparison can be applied to their footwork. Elvis was fast but repetitve and limited while Kulik was a bit slower but more diverse. As far as choreography, neither was spectacular that year or in most prior ones, but that was the trend back then anyway. Everyone was trying to prove how manly they were, so too much style was actually a detriment if you weren't Russian and classically dance trained.

Let's not forget that Elvis had about two free skate themes applied to different music tracks in 5-6 years. Martial arts warrior and barbarian/explorer. In every case he played out the same scenario where he skated as the strong hero figure to who does some big jumps landed in awkward positions and eventually does a fast footwork straightline sequence near the end and scratch spin before his final pose. So to claim any superiority on his part with regard to his relationship to the music is a stretch.

Still, this is not meant as a blanket indictment of him alone. Almost that entire decade of men's skating, but especially between the fall of 1992 and the winter of 1998 was quite possibly the worst in the history of the sport. Men's skating really regressed in every other area except jumping during that time. The pursuit of the almighty triple axel-triple toe and quad jumps sacrificed vitually everything else. Spinning became just an afterthought that was only done because the rules manadated them. The same applied to footwork. Skating programs themselves were all designed to have big jumps at he beginning and end, with huge empty rest periods in the middle filled with posing and very little content. Good transitions were also pretty much thrown out the door during that era as well.

Bekalc and Pangtongfan are both right in their posts. Tarasova realized 98 was all about who would skate cleanest in Nagano, so she watered down Ilia's programs to make them simpler and harder to screw up. People forget that 97 Worlds was a skating bloodbath. Coming in Urmanov was the favorite. He'd won Euros and had finally remastered his quad. He dominated his qualifying round and then won the SP easily. But he tore his groin muscle before the FS and withdrew. That had multiple effects, first his withdrawl before he took the ice reshuffled everyone's ordinals from the SP, moving them all up one spot. That made Stojko third and capaple of winning overall if he won the FS. It also put Todd in the worst position for him, the lead. He came up just short as he typically did when the pressure was on. Had he skated like his did at the GPF, he might have won and defended his title. Kulik blew up in the FS and came 5th IIRC. His FS was very complex and with so much emphasis on the quad, he always seemed to have trouble with the rest of the complexities in the programs once that jumping pass was over landed or not. Yagudin snuck in to move up and place third in a surprise. That left Elvis to do his usual bit and win. But it was something of a hollow victory. The judging in the SP, at Worlds the previous year and the 1996 GPF had already placed the writing on the wall. All things being equal, the judges would go for someone else who was more complete. That could be Urmanov, Kulik or Eldridge depending on the situation. Had any one of those three skated consistently well and stayed healthy over that cycle, he likely would have won multiple worlds and been OGM. With Urmanov out for the 98 season and Eldridge aging and prone to falling short at the finish line, Tarasova knew all she had focus on was Stojko. So everything she did in designing Kulik's programs was done to contrast the two skaters. Nothing was too bunched together, every element is on it's own, clear and uncluttered. It's not beautiful by any means, but it's clear and clean. With Elvis hurt, quadless and skating quite slowing ith poor choreography and skating skills anyway, there was no chance.

Lastly, Elvis multiple WCs should not be viewed as the only measuring stick of his quality versus other skaters. Robin Cousins and Toller Cranston never won an overall world championship. However they won the free skate multiple times and everyone acknowledged them as being either the or among the best skaters of their genereations. Of course John Curry wallows in the middle ranks for years before he realized his potential and had his golden year in 1976. But before that he was losing consistently to far more pedestrian skaters like Jan Hoffman, Vladimir Kovalev and and Sergei Volkov among others. No one thinks of Hoffman, Kovalev or Volkov as better skaters, but combined they have 5 WC golds plus 9 other medals over nine years, a virtual lock on Euros over two Olympic cycles and two Olympic silvers. By comparison, Curry, Cranston and Cousins won only one WC along with only six other medals. Curry and Cousins each won only one European title en route to their Olympic wins. So listing a heap of titles or medals Elvis won versus his competitors does not shore up his legacy in my book. The quality of his skating is all that matters, and his skating looks worse with each passing year, quads or not. That is not to say that Kulik was brilliant by comparison. He was just better than his nearest competitor at the right time. The fact that he retired so early prevents us from having a longer career to examine which might have shown further improvement in his overall presentation.

 

[Mathman]

Thank you for that interesting analysis, jcoates -- especially about the strategies that skaters and their coaches opted for in the 6.0 era.

Many people (I am one of them) criticize CoP programs because they are full of "busy work" that adds little performance value to the program. Under 6.0, it tended to be the opposite. Skaters typically did their big jumps but otherwise dumbed down their programs to make sure they didn't make a mistake. They rested a lot, made uninspired use of non-jump elements, and did little to alter their programs to suit the the music.

 

[Tonichelle]

one thing that always bugs me about Elvis is that he does most of his footwork standing still and moving his feet up and down. and then he bad mouths other skaters for doing too many "showy steps" really? At least they're MOVING across the ice...

I don't remember 98 very well, I only really watched because Scott was commentating and at that point he was teh only reason I was watching much of anything skating. I've never been over the moon about Stojko or Kulik, but of the two Kulik is the definite winner. He SKATES... Stojko macho poses... booooorrrrinnnnnnngggggg... Elvis' best year, IMO, was 94 choreographically.

 

[Olympia]

Thanks, jcoates. Lots to think about.

Interesting what you pointed out about spins. I remember hearing that Todd Eldredge knew that he couldn't keep up with people like Stojko in terms of jumps, so he really worked on his spins. He and Scott Davis were splendid spinners. But I didn't remember that the other skaters of the time were particularly weak at spinning. Your explanation makes sense, though: if they were sacrificing everything for jumps, of course they wouldn't be so strong at other elements. they might not even care. Poor Urmanov, though. He surely sacrificed his career to the altar of the quad. I don't recall that he ever dominated skating again, did he?

I think that at that time the skating I was paying most attention to was pro skating, which was just entering its prime. This was the cycle right after Tonya/Nancy, when television was filled with skating programs, and Browning and Wylie, along with others, were making men's skating look fresh and deep and musical.

 

[jcoates]

The slow sections back then were virtually mandated by the rules. They called for something labeled "moves in the field" which IIRC was in place of one of the two footwork sequences and were intended to incorporate a weird hybrid of moves from figures, basic edges and footwork. In a way it ended up evolving into part of the basis for our ultra-complex footwork sequences now. But back then they were undervalued by skaters and choreographers because they had no real scoring value. So they were just used for planned rests.

Regarding spins, Todd did improve notably over time into a very good spinner. (BTW, I forgot to mention in my previous post that he actually had the best choreographed FS of the top finishers in 98, but he had somehow lost his ability to land his second 3a while pursuing the holy quad under pressure both at home from Weiss and internationally. So the program was never shown to its full potential. He can closest at the GPF that season.) He not only improved his technical quality, but he developed greater finesse, better lines and more clearly defined positions. His sit spin positions always bugged me though because he virtually only used the cannonball position and did not turn out his free foot adequately, but his centering and speed were very strong and his spins did not lose their punch as the program progressed. Davis was the most natural spinner of his era and the second best male spinner I've seen in thirty years after Lambiel. He actually spun faster at times than Lambiel, but had less variety of position. His spins also could lose some punch if he was not landing his jumps well.

Urmanov is an interesting case. Each of the other three of the big four from that era are easier to judge in terms of how they might fit into other eras. I think the consensus is Elvis would not fare well under COP. He also clearly declined post 98 and could not hold his own with Yagudin, Plushenko and even Goebel even when all were healthy. Todd had trouble keeping up jump wise in his own era because of the singular quad focus, but I think he would have been a very strong COP skater up to 2010. He had the clearest edges of the four, made the most productive use of the moves in the field section (which would relate strongly to many of the PCS categories and the footwork as currently defined), was a fine spinner, and had fairly strong triples. Of course he and Elvis were both old warhorses who had medaled at worlds prior to 94-98 when they hit their stride, so we know they would have been competitive, if a little green, in a previous era. Kulik was in and out so fast, it's had to say how he would have done. He was such a natural jumper with strong basic skills, he would always have that skill to fall back on, but he was largely a flaky competitor. Good for only a couple of strong competitions in a row at any one time before he'd flame out again. He was also not the most disciplined skater as Tarasova has pointed out. So a deeper era like Yagudin/Plushenko or Browning's before injury hampered him, might not have brought out the best in Ilia.

Now to Urmanov. Remember that he was the first of Mishin's string of champion skaters. In many ways Yagudin and Plushenko are updated clones of Urmanov. I always felt that he was held back by a couple of things: injury and his intense loyalty to Mishin. Most people either forget or don't know how long Urmanov was around and what he did early on. He was the second skater ever to complete an ISU ratified quad in 91 Euros. Shortly thereafter, he badly broke his leg while practicing a quad axel. It took him some time to recover, but he did skate reasonably well during the Olympic season in 92, actually beating Petrenko at Soviet nationals in the lead up to Albertville and placing third at Euros and finishing 5th in the Olympics (beating Stojko and Browning). He then won nationals again (under the Russian flag) the next year and placed third at worlds. But even despite his sucess, his confidence had been shaken by the injury and according to Mishin, he always doubted himself somewhat afterward. Combined with always having been in Petrenko and even Zagarudniuk's shadows up to that point, I don't think he really believed in his potential by Lillehammer.

Also the 94 games were such a mess and not anything close to a normal Olympics. Even without the Tonya/Nancy debacle, there were the returning pros (T&D, G&G, M&D, Witt, Boitano, Petrenko) to garner the attention of the media and judges while sucking all the oxygen out of the event for their competitors. The male pros bombed miserably in the SP, popping and two-footing and falling all over the place. That only to left guys who would otherwise be much hyped Olympic stars to fill the void (Elvis and Urmanov who were 2nd and 3rd at the previous worlds along with Cadeloro). No casual fans knew who they were and even less cared. It boiled down to a final east vs west old-school cold war battle with the east winning and the western media absolutely savaging Urmanov as an undeserving winner. Scott Hamilton and CBS shamelessly milked and manufactured the "controversy" even zeroing in on Stojko and Browning sitting together watching Urmanov's marks and looking like anything but good losers. So the die was cast, Elvis the real athlete was robbed and the frilly, ballet trained Russian won because he was prettier to watch for the stuffy old lady judges. Never mind that the decision was not a 5-4 split. It was a much clearer 8-1. Even the US and Canadian judges voted against him with just the French judge dissenting. The constant digs that were delivered after that Olympics on top of the surprise nature of the competition itself did not boost he confidence and he underperformed for the next several years with the occasional strong showing (95 Euros FS and 96 GPF). But it took until 97 to build up his confidence as he was not a bravado infused talker like Elvis and he did not have the US media hype of Eldredge. Sadly injury derailed him again. He did make reasonable strong comeback during the 98-99 season and even challenged Yagudin briefly, especially in SPs, but he was never quite 100%. So we'll never know What he could have truly accomplished.

Still, he was an immensely talented jumper and a very natural mover on the ice. But I think he was also very shy and not inclined to boast about his qualities during an era when a lot of talk to actually get you somewhere. I always wished he would have had a better choreographer however. Mishin is no great arbiter of taste and he frequently gave all his skaters programs that don't show them off all that well. Alexei was no exception. However, unlike others, I thought there was something more to work with there that never got enough attention. In today's system under Wilson, Camerlengo, Nichol etc, he might be interesting to watch develop. Also under a coach with a more complete focus and a better training system (Carroll, Papa or Yuka Sato) He might have improved some of his other skills and avoided injury. We'll never know, but we can speculate.

 

[Tonichelle]

I think that at that time the skating I was paying most attention to was pro skating, which was just entering its prime. This was the cycle right after Tonya/Nancy, when television was filled with skating programs, and Browning and Wylie, along with others, were making men's skating look fresh and deep and musical.

I miss those days... I much prefer to rewatch the pros of that era than stuff that ever happened by the "olympic elligible" competitions... but that's just me... I'm an Ice Wars junkie

 

[Blades of Passion]

Kulik was amazing but I find his 1998 LP to be a bore. Still, he was a lot better than Stojko that night.

However, I think Stojko deserved to win the SP at 1998 Olympics. It was an excellent program (definitely his best ever SP) and he was more solid on several of the technical elements.

 

[dorispulaski]

Thank you for that interesting analysis, jcoates -- especially about the strategies that skaters and their coaches opted for in the 6.0 era.

Many people (I am one of them) criticize CoP programs because they are full of "busy work" that adds little performance value to the program. Under 6.0, it tended to be the opposite. Skaters typically did their big jumps but otherwise dumbed down their programs to make sure they didn't make a mistake. They rested a lot, made uninspired use of non-jump elements, and did little to alter their programs to suit the the music.

This was why I so loved Rudy Galindo's 1996 programs-something interesting was going on all the time in them, especially compared to his era. I wish Rudy had held on till 1998, but I'm sure he made the right choice professionally to move on to professional skating immediately after his world bronze medal, given his age.

But I can't talk about spinning and moves in the field and musicality in the 1990's without talking about Rudy.

SP at Nationals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdWF-_lA4Ic

LP at Worlds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzKaCca8rrg

Flutz aside, I loved everything else about his 2 programs in 1996.

 

[janetfan]

This was why I so loved Rudy Galindo's 1996 programs-something interesting was going on all the time in them, especially compared to his era. I wish Rudy had held on till 1998, but I'm sure he made the right choice professionally to move on to professional skating immediately after his world bronze medal, given his age.

But I can't talk about spinning and moves in the field and musicality in the 1990's without talking about Rudy.

SP at Nationals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdWF-_lA4Ic

LP at Worlds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzKaCca8rrg

Flutz aside, I loved everything else about his 2 programs in 1996.

The thing I remember most about Rudy (besides him rooming and being inseparable with Yags back in the day) is the look on Todd's face when he messed up his LP and saw a lesser skater win US Natls.

I will never forget the look on Todd's face when Tara was placed first in Nagano as in "there is no God"

And yes, I liked it when the nice guy Todd placed his WC medal around his mama's neck.

Pageantry doesn't get much better than that

Rudy as the great skater is not an easy sell with me.

A happy mediocrity would come much closer.